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Thread: Mandatory Medical Treatment

  1. #1

    Default Mandatory Medical Treatment

    How much should our government interfere/intervene in medical treatment? I mean the government influences (or tries to) the medical care available in myriad ways all the time from medicaid, medicare, prescription drug regulations, insurance regulations, laws about what kinds of medical procedures should not be done. I'm not really talking about those things. The Terri Shiavo case got a lot of attention and spurred a lot of debate on government intervention in end-of-life decisions and recently there was a case of a teenager with cancer who did not want chemotherapy (with his parents' support) and the doctors took the case to court to try to make him have chemotherapy. Those cases are a little closer to what I mean.

    But what raises this question for me is this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/condi....ap/index.html

    There is legislation that, if passed, would result in requiring that Michigan girls entering the 6th grade will have to be vaccinated against certain strains of human papilloma virus that can cause cancer. There is a provision allowing parents to opt out of the vaccine requirement (as they can opt out of other kinds of required vaccinations for school enrollment). But I'm sure there are going to be objections aplenty even with the opt out provision.

    I actually think that this (and most if not all other commonly given vaccinations) are good. I also agree that there is a public health consideration in trying to reduce the spread of certain diseases (like TB or polio). This particular vaccination is more controversial than some other vaccines because it is tied to sexual activity. But should it be a condition for going to school (unless the parent opts out)? I understand that the vaccine needs to be given prior to sexual activity in order to be most effective.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    The HPV vaccine is going to get tied into knots because it's sex-related. In America, that's a sure recipe for controversy.

    But let's stick to the topic, mandatory medical treatment. Specifically, vaccinations.

    There are already a bunch of vaccinations -- MMR (measles-mumps-rubella), DPT (diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus), polio, etc. -- that a child is required to have before being admitted to school, but they're typically given in infancy and early childhood. So as long as the government can show that there's a clear threat that's being prevented, I think they're on solid ground to justify requiring HPV vaccinations.

    I am also reminded of the U.S. military's anthrax immunization program, which initially was mandatory but due to controversy is now optional.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

    It's sending the wrong message.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe
    If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

    It's sending the wrong message.
    Wow. Along that line of thinking, do you really think cervical cancer related to HPV is punishment for "having fun"?

    Sorry---slipping a bit OT, but that comment made me spew my morning coffee. I lean more towards the realistic than the idealistic.

    And what about those boys who are passing HPV around? They'll most likely settle down one day, marry happily, and pass the virus on to their unsuspecting brides, who may or may not be vestal virgins.

    Cancer is a rather cruel price to pay for "having fun," for either gender, I would think.

    To get back on track here, I'd support the right to refuse the HPV vaccine. Refusal after education about what it is and what it can and cannot do.

    I'm out of the loop here as far as childhood vaccinations go. I've been vaccinated against Hepatitis B, which is not mandatory for healthcare workers but which is highly recommended. If I was travelling I'd have no qualms about being vaccinated against the many diseases for which there are effective vaccines.

    I'd need a bit more information before I consented to having a child immunized against HPV. From what I've read, this is one of the biggest breakthroughs in cancer prevention ever.

    Here is some info from the CDC:

    http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV-vaccine.htm

    Now if you could just get those kids to stop smoking...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/condi....ap/index.html

    I found this article interesting. It doesn't cover mandating the vaccine but the pros and cons of talking to girls and women about the vaccine. I'm still ambivalent about the mandating part but it makes sense to me that girls be informed of their choices and the possible consequences of their actions when they're old enough to understand and make those choices.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    I think that vaccines which keep the spread of disease down should be pushed as hard as possible.

    In the case of a specific treatment (like the kid who didn't want to do the chemo), I don't think he should have been required by law to do it.

    It's one thing to govern something that affects many people & a communicable disease, but there's no reason a medical treatment should be mandatory when it only affects one person's physical health. That's more like natural selection.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Most College sports programs have an HPV epidemic on their hands. Especially Basketball, Football, and Wrestling, where sweaty bodies are constantly in contact with each other.

    There are lots of resources on the internet that talk about this problem.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

    It's sending the wrong message.
    Quote Originally Posted by WindwardOahuRN View Post
    Wow. Along that line of thinking, do you really think cervical cancer related to HPV is punishment for "having fun"?

    Sorry---slipping a bit OT, but that comment made me spew my morning coffee. I lean more towards the realistic than the idealistic.

    And what about those boys who are passing HPV around? They'll most likely settle down one day, marry happily, and pass the virus on to their unsuspecting brides, who may or may not be vestal virgins.

    Cancer is a rather cruel price to pay for "having fun," for either gender, I would think.
    digging this thread up again, because of a piece from slate.com that specifically asks, "does the HPV vaccine promote promiscuity?"

    i'll state here that my opinions on this matter agree wholly and enthusiastically with WORN's than with mr. watanabe's. even before the piece on slate, i'd had the idea that at least 60% of the american population already are carriers of HPV, of which a few strains cause genital warts and a few cause cancer.

    here are the real numbers from the cdc:

    Approximately 20 million people are currently infected with HPV. At least 50 percent of sexually active men and women acquire genital HPV infection at some point in their lives. By age 50, at least 80 percent of women will have acquired genital HPV infection. About 6.2 million Americans get a new genital HPV infection each year.
    a story my gynecologist told me about one of his patients some years ago: an elderly woman came in with a itch in her netherlands. it turned out to be genital warts--the kind that wouldn't have been visible unless they had been "painted" with a vinegar solution and examined under magnification. she had never been with anyone else but her husband, whom she had married in her early twenties. her husband suspected she had cheated on him. actually, what was more likely the truth is that hubby, who had had other sexual partners prior to his wife, probably gave HPV to his wife and it had never manifested itself in either abnormal pap smears or warts until their senior years.

    to me, the argument that the HPV vaccine would encourage teen girls to have more sex falls completely flat because honestly, most teens don't know enough about HPV to be afraid of it. if they're gonna abstain from sex because they're afraid of some bad consequence, they'd be more afraid of pregnancy or AIDS or herpes.

    as a side note, condoms don't prevent the transmission of HPV. men are largely asymptomatic if they have HPV; they don't often find out they're a carrier unless their female partner has an abnormal pap or develops warts. since there is no test for HPV for men, men mistakenly believe that because they don't have warts, they don't have HPV, and as in the example of the elderly couple above, that their other half must have been unfaithful.

    sad to say, AGAIN, but to me, HPV is another double standard issue when it comes to life as a man versus life as a woman. it's not okay for our girls to get a vaccine that will prevent cervical cancer because same vaccine "will" promote promiscuity, but yet we don't do anything to tell our boys that having sex--protected or not--can make them carriers of the virus that could give our girls cancer.

    god, between this post and the one i last wrote on the superferry thread, i'm awfully depressed.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Texas went through this already, the legislature passed the law, is my understanding and then rescinded it. (oops, editing in here cuz it wasn't the legislature that passed it. Their dang governor made it law by executive order and then he got put in his place by the legislature undoing it, and he didn't press the issue cuz by then it had become a hot-button issue, the will of the people being known)

    It's not govt's business to control our kids' health and is just one of a thousand reasons why we homeschooled our daughters, and are proud we did so, cuz for us we did what was right.

    No, this vaccine is not a great idea, it does not even protect against all of the strains of HP Virus. This vaccine may, or may not prevent cancer. It, even if it does work certainly won't for everyone. However, what harm may it do? Vaccines clearly do harm. The vaccine is rather new. Vaccinations are questionable at best. I have a daughter that has never had one in her life and she's healthier than her sis that has had some.

    I won't be surprised if Michigan's parents wake up and fight this and that they follow Texas' lead. I certainly hope so.

    Should the govt. be able to force chemotherapy? Hell no. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and medical care clearly falls into these categories.
    Last edited by Karen; September 29th, 2007 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    karen, i know i risk feeding your fantasy that i have something against you personally. the reality is i detest stupidity, like to point it out, and then correct it.

    that said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    It's not govt's business to control our kids' health....

    Should the govt. be able to force chemotherapy? Hell no. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and medical care clearly falls into these categories.
    actually, health is among the many issues that the government should and does have control over. i'd hate to think what life in modern american society would be like without things like federally funded health and social science research, federally funded and oversight of disease prevention, and programs like medicare and medicaid. additionally, there are federal mandates like HIPAA that guarantee patient rights and privacy.

    furthermore, to suggest that mandated vaccination is akin to forcing chemotherapy on cancer patients is about as nuances as saying apples are like oranges.

    the biggest reason why your daughters never got polio, smallpox, or diptheria is because they are lucky enough to live in a society where government funded vaccination and sanitation programs have largely eradicated such diseases. tomorrow, both your innoculated daughter and i can walk hand in hand through some third world country with poor sanitation and where smallpox or diptheria might exist and have very little to worry about compared to your un-innoculated daughter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Vaccines clearly do harm. ..... Vaccinations are questionable at best.
    au contraire! it is not "clear" that vaccines do harm. most scientists and health practitioners today agree that vaccines are the opposite of harmful--they're beneficial. even concerns about mercury in vaccines have been discounted. still, as part of a environmental protection agency's program (pointing again to your bad and wrong assertion that the govmt has no business in health), organizations are taking the precautionary measure of eliminating the use of mercury in healthcare settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I have a daughter that has never had one in her life and she's healthier than her sis that has had some.

    one's immune system is affected by a multitudinous myriad of factors, such as sleep, genetics, environmental exposures. to come to the conclusion that one daughter's lack of vaccination is what made her more successful at fighting off disease than her immunized sister is about as sensible as me proposing that maybe you ingested the semen of your non-immunized daughter's father whilst pregnant with non-immunized daughter. clinical studies have shown that if a mother-to-be ingests the dna of her baby's father, she significantly boosts her child's immunity by effectively "feeding" her child the father's genetic immune system.

    that i can't find the article about fellatio-fetal immune system connection (but hey! i can find this one!) bolsters my position that your implied assertion no vaccine = healthier daughter is as proveable as a hypothesis saying your non-vaccinated daughter's robust health correllates with your sexual practices when you were pregnant with her.

    but see, i'm not the habitual dumb pronouncement-maker. in the rare occasions i do make a stupid statement, i apologize for it and correct it myself.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    oops. as eric likes to say, spontaneous self-replicating post.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Aww c'mon!!! LOL I wrote you a dayum book and the software told me to LOG IN!! why did it let me reply if I wasn't?!! LOL.....

    Cyn, there's a TON of proof that immunizations do great harm. company coming, I'll type you a book or two on this when I do have time, AGAIN....thanks for showing me the apology, diggin it and yes, I made a hobby of researching the shots even before I had my 23yr old....here's a couple of websites that give the subject some justice, and I know there's a ton more. Maybe nine or ten years ago I printed up so much from the internet that it was a stack over a foot high, and if it had been allowed to be presented in a courtroom it actually could have won an argument against routine shots, no exaggeration.

    Dang, gotta fly, maybe that was my longest post here to date, argh!


    PS, LOL....yes fingers are running late here.....right here, post number 96 I summed up what I believe, and the book I hope to write you on here will be some of the most glaring things that support the whys of my beliefs.

    http://hawaiithreads.com/showthread....ghlight=church



    http://www.vaccinetruth.org/

    http://www.vaccinationnews.com/

    Both of these are very full websites and have documentation, and utilize a good number of medical doctors, no, not quacks but legitimate, licensed docs.

    Enjoy....

    (will write ya a dang book here when I can...)
    Last edited by Karen; September 30th, 2007 at 06:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Immunizations are suspicious & should be taken with wisdom and forethought because...

    1969- and outbreak of Diptheria in Chicago- their city board of health reported that 4 of the 16 patients had been fully immunized and 5 others partially immunized, and two of the showed full immunity, but got the disease. A separate outbreak in which 3 died of it showed that one of the fatalities had been fully immunized. 14 of the 23 that came down with it were, also.

    JAMA reported on a survey done in California of its ob-gyn docs, sorry don't have the year in my notes. NINETY percent of these docs refused to be vaccinated themselves for rubella. Why?!

    Numerous studies have shown that women immunized against rubella when they were children lack immunity in adolescence, evidenced by blood tests. How is it, therefore mainly the shots that are preventing us from having more outbreaks?! (childhood diseases decreased in the fifties at a time when education and awareness about hygiene increased dramatically in society)

    1978- a survey of 30 states showed that more than half of the kids that contracted measles were vaccinated for them. worse, the WHO stated that the chances are approx. 15 times! greater that measles will be contracted by vaccinated people.

    1994- in a recent 39 month period, the FDA collected more than 54,000 reports of injury and death following vaccinations. It is believed that thousands of serious side effects are failing to be reported. Many a physician simply tells the parent they firmly believe the child's symptoms weren't because of the shot.

    There is a little publicized program called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. it began in 1986 and by 1994 had paid out over 450 Million Dollars on more than 1000 awards. Doesn't make the news, does it? I had to research to learn about it.

    The Journal of Pediatrics has reported that the whooping cough vaccine may only be fifty percent effective. July '94 the New England Journal of Med. posted a study that found that more than 80 percent! of children under 5 yrs. old that contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated! (again, WHY vaccinate?? and what other factors are at play here that are why we have as few outbreaks of these diseases as we do?)

    I have little time, company's gone and I have some paperwork here at my desk, but suffice it to say that this isn't even the tip of the iceberg, and only a glance at my notes showed me these things that are glaringly negative about why we vaccinate. If given the time I can produce five hundred more pages like this but of course don't plan on doing so.

    I will be glad to type more pages like this.

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    oh, karen, thanks for the sentiment, but if you're posting to "educate" me, i'm not interested.

    as i've said before, i'm no clinician, but i work daily with physicians and other hospital professionals; eric used to work at kapiolani's NICU. neither of us have ever met a healthcare professional or a medical malpractice attorney who outright rejected vaccination, as you do. additionally, we believe that national and international organizations like the cdc, the iom, and the who are quite credible and have done quite extensive research into whether vaccines are harmful or not, and all agree that the risks associated with vaccination are heavily outweighed by the benefits.

    the Joint Commission, which is the independent healthcare accrediting/certification organization for America hospitals, long term care homes, assisting living centers, etc., has, as part of its national patient safety goals, advocated the use of pneumococcal and influenza vaccines.

    looking more closely at two of the things you mentioned:

    any concerns borne out of the chicago diptheria "outbreak" in 1969 have been nullified by the fact that the vaccine used then is not the one used now.

    JAMA, which you cited, has scads of articles advocating rubella vaccination. here's one from 1992.

    this is not to say that there is no dissent amongs the medical community about vaccines or any other aspect of healthcare (because by golly, there is), but the overwhelming evidence on vaccines is contrary to whatever you might have. so, go ahead and write your "book" if it amuses you. i suggest you start your own thread, tho.

    with that segue, and to go back on topic--it's telling that the resident registered nurse on HT advocates vaccines, and even chose to vaccinate herself voluntarily against Hep B. WORN, as any healthcare professional worth her license would, does say that any patient or parent can refuse the HPV vaccine if s/he chooses, but only after full disclosure about what it can/not do.
    Last edited by cynsaligia; October 1st, 2007 at 12:23 AM. Reason: extraneous statement deleted for the benefit of the majority of HT readers, who are not hopelessly stupid.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Sentiment? the only one I see is that you don't want to be confused with facts that you hadn't encountered yet.

    When healthcare professionals go to school for their chosen profession they only know what they are taught, and they can be greatly ostracized if they dare to think "outside the box." "Sacred cows" do exist even in their profession.

    I'm not posting "just for you." I'll post a few more facts when I have time, or a ton more.

    Back on topic, well I never left it. It is that the govt. has NO just or right business butting into our medical treatment, or our choice of the lack of. You say it does and is already and I say....hmm....where is it? I don't see it. That word "mandatory" just doesn't sit well with the other two, per this thread title.

    I'll post more about the truth, often hidden as best it can be, about immunizations and the sometimes great harm they do, and even when not.....the very questionable "good" many are convinced, or is that brainwashed? to believe they do.


    Cyn, since you enjoy throwing words like "stupidity" around I really should stop posting when rushed and pay attention to detail. You said "furthermore, to suggest that mandated vaccination is akin to forcing chemotherapy on cancer patients is about as nuances as saying apples are like oranges."

    The topic here is "mandated medical treatment" and they both fall very well under it. HPV shot which the thread opener had in mind is something that is being mandated for our children, and so are immunizations. I had our kids in mind as I posted and I would think that was obvious. The govt. has not yet gotten so intrusive that it tries to force adults to have chemo but it does this routinely to kids, hence my referring to chemo and the shots in one post or even one paragraph was and is fitting and proper.
    Last edited by Karen; October 1st, 2007 at 09:39 AM. Reason: too rushed earlier ;)

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    . It is that the govt. has NO just or right business butting into our medical treatment, or our choice of the lack of. You say it does and is already and I say....hmm....where is it?
    i will heartily agreee with you that you need to end your habit of reading sloppily and posting from the hip. start with re-reading adri's initial post where she asserts that the government does have a hand in americans' medical care, and where she is raising a question specifically about the HPV vaccine, not vaccines in general.

    the reason why you don't "see" goverment intervention re health issues, including medicine, in the US is because the US doesn't have rampant sanitation/disease issues. venture your quaint little self into a nation where the government will not or cannot get involved in health issues, and you'll see that clean water, safe food, clean needles, availability of medicine are daily concerns for the majority of the population--which is not generally true in the US. if you are unaware the US government makes decisions and takes actions affecting the health and well-being of every person on american soil every day via little tiny something called "the US department of health and human services," then you are truly obtuse.

    i will stand by my assertion that your comparing forced chemotherapy to mandatory vaccination is like saying apples are like oranges, simply because chemotherapy is a complex process to treat one person of a non-communicable disease, whereas a mandatory vaccination program acts to prevent communicable disease for a population.

    lastly, i had hoped it would not be necesssary to say what i had deleted out of my last post, but since you imply i am "confused" and "brainwashed":

    WORN, a registerned nurse, advocated vaccinations, has voluntarily vaccinated herself against Hep B, and would consider the HPV vaccine if she had a female child and felt she, as a responsible parent and clinician, were fully informed of its risks and what it can/cannot do.

    HT's resident registered nurse advocates vaccines. and mind you, she had training specifically about vaccines, and has made her life working in the health care field (by the way, WORN, if you ever read this--thank you for all you do daily. i couldn't do what you do, and i find it an honor to work in a tangential field that helps others like you give great patient care).

    karen, you, on the other hand, outright say all vaccines do harm. what are your credentials? what is the proof of your expertise and experience?

    go ahead: write your pages and pages. first of all, this great nation not only oversees the health of its citizens, but allows even conspiracy theorists like you an opinion, and my purpose was never to convince you to change it (refer to the first line in post #10 for my purpose). second of all, unlike you, i have no compulsion to validate myself in such a manner. i'll grant that you might have a small audience who might consider looking more closely into vaccines or who might flat out believe as you do. but the vast majority of us? we've have had our vaccinations, get our flu shots, make sure our kids get vaccinated, and get more vaccinations prior to travelling to certain other countries.

    in other words, we're buying what the cdc, who, iom, and the vast majority of physicians and clinicians--you know, real experts?--are selling.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Adri titled her thread what she did, not specifically about the HPV vaccine, therefore it is perfectly fitting to be discussing not only ALL vaccines but medical treatment and the myriad of things it includes, and how we approve or disapprove of govt. mandating anything within it.


    You can stand by...anything you wish, there was nothing stupid about my post concerning it (saying that govt. has no right to force vaccinations or chemo) for reasons I already stated.

    I say all vaccinations have the capacity and yes, that there most likely does not exist a vaccine that has done NO harm, and if I were to have the time and keep posting, I know I could prove this, for there's a ton, and that is not an exaggeration, of documentation on harm that vaccines do.

    Here's a bit more than I found at a glance....things like this make news somewhere and then most other news sources refuse to pick them up, when to say the least they are! newsworthy.
    Documented news stories on mandated immunizations...

    Flu vaccines may not save lives of elderly
    No solid proof that shots prevent seniors from dying of disease, expert says
    Reuters
    Updated: 8:19 p.m. ET Sept 24, 2007
    WASHINGTON - Getting an annual flu vaccine may not save the lives of seniors, and health officials may want to look at other ways to protect the elderly, researchers said on Monday...
    ***********
    KERRY'S FIGHT FOR LIFE AFTER TB JAB AT SCHOOL
    Date: 9/28/2003; Publication: Sunday Mirror; Author: HELEN MORGAN

    A TEENAGER has spent five months in hospital and still has to be fed through a tube after a routine TB jab given to her at school. Kerry Watson, 15, had the BCG vaccine, which protects against tuberculosis, while she was suffering from a bug
    ********

    "Effects of Chickenpox Vaccine Fade Over Time
    Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:02PM GMT
    By Gene Emery
    BOSTON (Reuters) - Merck's chickenpox vaccine Varivax not only loses its effectiveness after a while, but it has also changed the profile of the disease in the population, U.S. researchers reported on Wednesday."
    *******
    "Vaccinated Youngsters Still Vulnerable to Killer Disease
    04 August 2006

    By KIM RUSCOE

    Twenty fully vaccinated under-20-year-olds have contracted the epidemic strain of meningitis since immunisation began."
    *******
    Ten vaccinated kids get disease
    12 January 2006
    By KELLY ANDREW and NZPA

    Ten fully vaccinated children and teenagers have been infected with deadly meningococcal B disease since the immunisation programme began 18 months ago.

    ********

    Pediatrics, August 2003 Journal Scan
    From The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal
    July 2003 (Volume 22, Number 7)
    "Increase in Deaths From Pertussis Among Young Infants in the United States in
    the 1990s" Vitek CR, Pascual FB, Baughman AL, Murphy TV
    The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal. 2003;22(7):628-634
    ********
    Meningococcal C vaccine may cause relapse of nephrotic syndrome in children

    Last Updated: 2003-08-08 12:33:14 -0400 (Reuters Health)

    NEW YORK (Reuters Health)
    ********

    Marines' Malaria Cases Show Protections Failed

    By David Brown
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, September 10, 2003; Page A01

    Despite extensive preventive measures, most of the more than 200 Marines who spent time ashore in Liberia last month apparently contracted malaria, with about 43 of them ill enough to be hospitalized.
    *******


    "Whooping cough not shot down, but vaccinations up

    By JANE E. ALLEN, Los Angeles Times

    November 3, 2003

    Doctors and public health officials are stumped. Even though vaccination rates are at record highs for whooping cough, cases of the highly contagious respiratory illness have been on the rise nationwide for more than two decades. In recent weeks, outbreaks have taken hold in parts of New York, Pennsylvania, Texas and Illinois. Nationally, cases reached 9,771 last year, the most since 1964."

    There's a ton more documentation like this....

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    "Vaccinated Youngsters Still Vulnerable to Killer Disease
    04 August 2006

    By KIM RUSCOE

    Twenty fully vaccinated under-20-year-olds have contracted the epidemic strain of meningitis since immunisation began."
    *******
    Ten vaccinated kids get disease
    12 January 2006
    By KELLY ANDREW and NZPA

    Ten fully vaccinated children and teenagers have been infected with deadly meningococcal B disease since the immunisation programme began 18 months ago.

    ********

    Pediatrics, August 2003 Journal Scan
    From The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal
    July 2003 (Volume 22, Number 7)
    "Increase in Deaths From Pertussis Among Young Infants in the United States in
    the 1990s" Vitek CR, Pascual FB, Baughman AL, Murphy TV
    The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal. 2003;22(7):628-634
    ********
    Meningococcal C vaccine may cause relapse of nephrotic syndrome in children

    Last Updated: 2003-08-08 12:33:14 -0400 (Reuters Health)

    NEW YORK (Reuters Health)
    ********

    Marines' Malaria Cases Show Protections Failed

    By David Brown
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, September 10, 2003; Page A01

    Despite extensive preventive measures, most of the more than 200 Marines who spent time ashore in Liberia last month apparently contracted malaria, with about 43 of them ill enough to be hospitalized.
    *******

    I don't really see what this sort of quoting 'proves', other than that vaccines aren't a panacea and may not provide a lifetime of immunity for everyone - but no one seems to make those claims, anyway. Yes, vaccination can be harmful to some. On the other hand, non-vaccination can be harmful to many. Cost/benefit questions cannot be reasonably answered with anecdotal evidence (and studies), but rather require broad analysis of all data, pro and con. If one is not prepared to do such an analysis, following generally accepted practices is the best course of action.

    BTW, I'm not aware of a vaccine for malaria (only immune system boosts).
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    I don't really see what this sort of quoting 'proves', other than that vaccines aren't a panacea and may not provide a lifetime of immunity for everyone....."

    What does the news ever prove? This is called reporting...facts. Facts that when it comes to immunization the majority of people are unaware of.

    It proves that it is wrong to force hundreds of millions of people to be vaccinated, especially without "reporting" the type of facts that I have here, so far. My entire argument on this thread is that we have a constitutional right to CHOICE in medical care, not only the type of choice billary wants us to have, but true choice....to vaccinate or not to, to accept chemo even for our kids, or to not to, to have a mammogram at a certain advised age, or not to...to abort or not to, our choice.

    More than "some" are harmed by vaccinations. One report stated that 54,000 reports were received in how many years? another report stated that in only 8yrs. over 450 million dollars was paid out on over 1000 claims of harm done by immunizations.

    That's more than "some."

  20. #20

    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    I don't really see what this sort of quoting 'proves', other than that vaccines aren't a panacea and may not provide a lifetime of immunity for everyone....."

    What does the news ever prove? This is called reporting...facts. Facts that when it comes to immunization the majority of people are unaware of.

    It proves that it is wrong to force hundreds of millions of people to be vaccinated, especially without "reporting" the type of facts that I have here, so far. My entire argument on this thread is that we have a constitutional right to CHOICE in medical care, not only the type of choice billary wants us to have, but true choice....to vaccinate or not to, to accept chemo even for our kids, or to not to, to have a mammogram at a certain advised age, or not to...to abort or not to, our choice.

    More than "some" are harmed by vaccinations. One report stated that 54,000 reports were received in how many years? another report stated that in only 8yrs. over 450 million dollars was paid out on over 1000 claims of harm done by immunizations.

    That's more than "some."
    What intelligent people do is take those "facts" and question whether or not they make sense in their own personal contexts. For instance, some women who know they have a family history of breast cancer sometimes choose to have mastectomies of healthy breasts because they have decided that the risk of breast cancer is great enough that they would rather undergo surgery before they need it. I don't think I would yell at them for that choice. Neither do I think parents who get tested genetically for inherited diseases and who decide on the basis of the tests that they will not have biological kids are wrong; they evaluated the risks and decided not to take a chance.

    The preservative in some vaccinations (mercury thiomersal) is thought to be a primary cause of autism, but does the possibility of becoming autistic outweigh the therapeutic benefit of those first immunizations that babies get to protect them from everything from whopping cough to diphtheria?

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    "does the possibility of becoming autistic outweigh the therapeutic benefit of those first immunizations that babies get to protect them from everything from whopping cough to diphtheria?"

    Do your homework, do some reading....perhaps even more than I posted here. There is PROOF that the immunizations often, yes often, not occasionally don't even give the protection that you are assuming that they do. Whooping cough.....the amount of infection rose when the percentage of immunized did over a twenty year period. The numbers tell the story....

  22. #22

    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    "does the possibility of becoming autistic outweigh the therapeutic benefit of those first immunizations that babies get to protect them from everything from whopping cough to diphtheria?"

    Do your homework, do some reading....perhaps even more than I posted here. There is PROOF that the immunizations often, yes often, not occasionally don't even give the protection that you are assuming that they do. Whooping cough.....the amount of infection rose when the percentage of immunized did over a twenty year period. The numbers tell the story....
    That is precisely what I'm saying, Karen. It's up to each individual to weigh the risks and benefits in their own contextual frame of reference. Most human beings have been blessed with some intelligence. Not to use it is what causes societies to fail. Everybody's life situation is different; hence a decision that is different from what you or I might make does not make the other person less intelligent or less worthy than us.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    If news reports are facts, then by golly, our mission in Iraq was 'accomplished' years ago - why are we still there? Taking raw numbers of reports, without verifying their substance is meaningless. That 1,000 claims have been paid for vaccination injuries doesn't qualify as more than 'some', per se. 1,000 sounds like a lot by itself, perhaps, but not relative to the numbers receiving vaccinations. When that number is brought into the picture, 1,000 is much less than some - it becomes a rather small percentage.

    I agree we each retain individual rights concerning our health care, just as we each chose to give-up some individual rights when we form governments. As vaccinations are not generally forced upon anyone, why be so adamant about the potential harm without addressing the potential benefit as well?
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    I didn't say ALL news reports are facts, now did I?

    That door swings both ways, if NO news is fact, how does news thrive, why do most of us pay attention to it, to say the least, and discuss it here as if it is true? Furthermore, since most of us never meet any presidential candidates and even the few that do barely get a handshake how on earth do we choose who to vote for? Just by reading their printouts and what little they say on tv? Part of our choice is what we GASP......hear on the news.

    You need what, ten thousand news reports on the adverse reactions of shots so that you can admit that at least, cough cough, some.......of them are true? Brace yourself, but news is full of facts and of course, just as there are dishonest people, etc...some news surely is distorted, etc.

    Only the supposed good the shots do is all we've ever been told about, hence I have been "giving the other side" here. Why come here and spout the party line, singing to the choir and saying what we've been told about them all of our lives? Makes more sense to come here and report what we haven't been, in many instances "allowed" to know.


    As I said, I can write a book here, report after report about the harm vaccines have done and about how every time we have an outbreak of any childhood disease, what does not make the news is that a good percentage of the kids that come down with it are FULLY immunized. It is questionable how well vaccinations work. In fact, for many healthy people when one weighs the good against the bad a person is much better off to let nature do it's job and not have any vaccinations.

    A govt. that forces kids to have shots to go to school except for the few parents that know they can push back and their kids can attend without the shots, this is the govt. that now says kids need two, not one MMR...but the CDC's own words say that the second shot "is not a booster" verbatim their website says that, or did not two mos. ago. There are doctors that don't know this and the CDC has to tell them. this govt. that mandates the shots forces millions of kids to have a second MMR because a TINY "two to five percent" don't form immunity to the first, and the shots do harm to many, so sacrfice the many for the few? THAT is govt. in action. THAT is what doesn't make the news because they don't want to inform so many parents that compliance with the shots goes way down.

    "Herd mentality" is the opposite of individual rights and freedoms. Speaking of news, and the accuracy or lack of in it, there is such a thing as "lies of ommission!" Yeah....how much of the news is true?

    I can post here till christmas and be reporting more and more truth about vaccinations, their harm and the admitted lack of their efficacy.


    HUGE website, called the National Vaccine Information center....surely they aren't so big that all 200,000 reports of adverse reactions are here, yet googling I had a page come up with ages, details of reactions, etc....very specific documentation.

    http://www.nvic.org/

    Oh great! this is live flu virus in a nasal mist....here's a small quote from that website...


    "The fact that the FDA had to recently slap MedImmune on the hands after inspectors reportedly found excessive amounts of mold and bacteria during early stages of the production process of FluMist doesn't help. A September 10, 2007 Washington Post article said the company was cited for "significant deviations for current good manufacturing practice."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/09/AR2007090901612.html?nav=rss_business"

    rest of article on this page...

    http://vaccineawakening.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by Karen; October 2nd, 2007 at 11:23 AM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    The goal of public health people is to provide treatments to the largest number of people with the greatest efficiency. Sometimes, in protecting the majority of people, some people do get injured. But that is why informed consent (and the reason for all the fine print with contraindications, etc. are always included with meds) is provided so that people can determine for themselves whether a therapy is worth the risk.

    With regard to thiomersal as a preservative in childhood vaccines, most drug companies, at the request of the feds, have started eliminating or dramatically reducing the amount of the preservative in their vaccines. And yet the number of autistic children has not dropped significantly since the changes. The numbers are still 1 in 6 children will be affected to some degree by autism. Therefore, the only conclusion a person can make is that if thiomersal was indeed a factor in autism, then there must be other causes as well, since the autism rate is unchanged. Children can die from whooping cough or diphtheria.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

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