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  • Mandatory Medical Treatment

    How much should our government interfere/intervene in medical treatment? I mean the government influences (or tries to) the medical care available in myriad ways all the time from medicaid, medicare, prescription drug regulations, insurance regulations, laws about what kinds of medical procedures should not be done. I'm not really talking about those things. The Terri Shiavo case got a lot of attention and spurred a lot of debate on government intervention in end-of-life decisions and recently there was a case of a teenager with cancer who did not want chemotherapy (with his parents' support) and the doctors took the case to court to try to make him have chemotherapy. Those cases are a little closer to what I mean.

    But what raises this question for me is this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/condi....ap/index.html

    There is legislation that, if passed, would result in requiring that Michigan girls entering the 6th grade will have to be vaccinated against certain strains of human papilloma virus that can cause cancer. There is a provision allowing parents to opt out of the vaccine requirement (as they can opt out of other kinds of required vaccinations for school enrollment). But I'm sure there are going to be objections aplenty even with the opt out provision.

    I actually think that this (and most if not all other commonly given vaccinations) are good. I also agree that there is a public health consideration in trying to reduce the spread of certain diseases (like TB or polio). This particular vaccination is more controversial than some other vaccines because it is tied to sexual activity. But should it be a condition for going to school (unless the parent opts out)? I understand that the vaccine needs to be given prior to sexual activity in order to be most effective.

  • #2
    Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

    The HPV vaccine is going to get tied into knots because it's sex-related. In America, that's a sure recipe for controversy.

    But let's stick to the topic, mandatory medical treatment. Specifically, vaccinations.

    There are already a bunch of vaccinations -- MMR (measles-mumps-rubella), DPT (diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus), polio, etc. -- that a child is required to have before being admitted to school, but they're typically given in infancy and early childhood. So as long as the government can show that there's a clear threat that's being prevented, I think they're on solid ground to justify requiring HPV vaccinations.

    I am also reminded of the U.S. military's anthrax immunization program, which initially was mandatory but due to controversy is now optional.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

      If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

      It's sending the wrong message.
      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

        Originally posted by craigwatanabe
        If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

        It's sending the wrong message.
        Wow. Along that line of thinking, do you really think cervical cancer related to HPV is punishment for "having fun"?

        Sorry---slipping a bit OT, but that comment made me spew my morning coffee. I lean more towards the realistic than the idealistic.

        And what about those boys who are passing HPV around? They'll most likely settle down one day, marry happily, and pass the virus on to their unsuspecting brides, who may or may not be vestal virgins.

        Cancer is a rather cruel price to pay for "having fun," for either gender, I would think.

        To get back on track here, I'd support the right to refuse the HPV vaccine. Refusal after education about what it is and what it can and cannot do.

        I'm out of the loop here as far as childhood vaccinations go. I've been vaccinated against Hepatitis B, which is not mandatory for healthcare workers but which is highly recommended. If I was travelling I'd have no qualms about being vaccinated against the many diseases for which there are effective vaccines.

        I'd need a bit more information before I consented to having a child immunized against HPV. From what I've read, this is one of the biggest breakthroughs in cancer prevention ever.

        Here is some info from the CDC:

        http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV-vaccine.htm

        Now if you could just get those kids to stop smoking...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

          http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/condi....ap/index.html

          I found this article interesting. It doesn't cover mandating the vaccine but the pros and cons of talking to girls and women about the vaccine. I'm still ambivalent about the mandating part but it makes sense to me that girls be informed of their choices and the possible consequences of their actions when they're old enough to understand and make those choices.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

            I think that vaccines which keep the spread of disease down should be pushed as hard as possible.

            In the case of a specific treatment (like the kid who didn't want to do the chemo), I don't think he should have been required by law to do it.

            It's one thing to govern something that affects many people & a communicable disease, but there's no reason a medical treatment should be mandatory when it only affects one person's physical health. That's more like natural selection.
            <3 EriKa
            ErikaMarie.us

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

              Most College sports programs have an HPV epidemic on their hands. Especially Basketball, Football, and Wrestling, where sweaty bodies are constantly in contact with each other.

              There are lots of resources on the internet that talk about this problem.
              FutureNewsNetwork.com
              Energy answers are already here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                If the treatment for papilloma virus is mandatory for girls then it kinda tells girls now that you're innoculated, go ahead and have fun! It's almost like passing out condoms out to our high school kids or the needle exchange program.

                It's sending the wrong message.
                Originally posted by WindwardOahuRN View Post
                Wow. Along that line of thinking, do you really think cervical cancer related to HPV is punishment for "having fun"?

                Sorry---slipping a bit OT, but that comment made me spew my morning coffee. I lean more towards the realistic than the idealistic.

                And what about those boys who are passing HPV around? They'll most likely settle down one day, marry happily, and pass the virus on to their unsuspecting brides, who may or may not be vestal virgins.

                Cancer is a rather cruel price to pay for "having fun," for either gender, I would think.
                digging this thread up again, because of a piece from slate.com that specifically asks, "does the HPV vaccine promote promiscuity?"

                i'll state here that my opinions on this matter agree wholly and enthusiastically with WORN's than with mr. watanabe's. even before the piece on slate, i'd had the idea that at least 60% of the american population already are carriers of HPV, of which a few strains cause genital warts and a few cause cancer.

                here are the real numbers from the cdc:

                Approximately 20 million people are currently infected with HPV. At least 50 percent of sexually active men and women acquire genital HPV infection at some point in their lives. By age 50, at least 80 percent of women will have acquired genital HPV infection. About 6.2 million Americans get a new genital HPV infection each year.
                a story my gynecologist told me about one of his patients some years ago: an elderly woman came in with a itch in her netherlands. it turned out to be genital warts--the kind that wouldn't have been visible unless they had been "painted" with a vinegar solution and examined under magnification. she had never been with anyone else but her husband, whom she had married in her early twenties. her husband suspected she had cheated on him. actually, what was more likely the truth is that hubby, who had had other sexual partners prior to his wife, probably gave HPV to his wife and it had never manifested itself in either abnormal pap smears or warts until their senior years.

                to me, the argument that the HPV vaccine would encourage teen girls to have more sex falls completely flat because honestly, most teens don't know enough about HPV to be afraid of it. if they're gonna abstain from sex because they're afraid of some bad consequence, they'd be more afraid of pregnancy or AIDS or herpes.

                as a side note, condoms don't prevent the transmission of HPV. men are largely asymptomatic if they have HPV; they don't often find out they're a carrier unless their female partner has an abnormal pap or develops warts. since there is no test for HPV for men, men mistakenly believe that because they don't have warts, they don't have HPV, and as in the example of the elderly couple above, that their other half must have been unfaithful.

                sad to say, AGAIN, but to me, HPV is another double standard issue when it comes to life as a man versus life as a woman. it's not okay for our girls to get a vaccine that will prevent cervical cancer because same vaccine "will" promote promiscuity, but yet we don't do anything to tell our boys that having sex--protected or not--can make them carriers of the virus that could give our girls cancer.

                god, between this post and the one i last wrote on the superferry thread, i'm awfully depressed.
                superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                  Texas went through this already, the legislature passed the law, is my understanding and then rescinded it. (oops, editing in here cuz it wasn't the legislature that passed it. Their dang governor made it law by executive order and then he got put in his place by the legislature undoing it, and he didn't press the issue cuz by then it had become a hot-button issue, the will of the people being known)

                  It's not govt's business to control our kids' health and is just one of a thousand reasons why we homeschooled our daughters, and are proud we did so, cuz for us we did what was right.

                  No, this vaccine is not a great idea, it does not even protect against all of the strains of HP Virus. This vaccine may, or may not prevent cancer. It, even if it does work certainly won't for everyone. However, what harm may it do? Vaccines clearly do harm. The vaccine is rather new. Vaccinations are questionable at best. I have a daughter that has never had one in her life and she's healthier than her sis that has had some.

                  I won't be surprised if Michigan's parents wake up and fight this and that they follow Texas' lead. I certainly hope so.

                  Should the govt. be able to force chemotherapy? Hell no. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and medical care clearly falls into these categories.
                  Last edited by Karen; September 29, 2007, 12:13 AM.
                  Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                    karen, i know i risk feeding your fantasy that i have something against you personally. the reality is i detest stupidity, like to point it out, and then correct it.

                    that said:

                    Originally posted by Karen View Post
                    It's not govt's business to control our kids' health....

                    Should the govt. be able to force chemotherapy? Hell no. We have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and medical care clearly falls into these categories.
                    actually, health is among the many issues that the government should and does have control over. i'd hate to think what life in modern american society would be like without things like federally funded health and social science research, federally funded and oversight of disease prevention, and programs like medicare and medicaid. additionally, there are federal mandates like HIPAA that guarantee patient rights and privacy.

                    furthermore, to suggest that mandated vaccination is akin to forcing chemotherapy on cancer patients is about as nuances as saying apples are like oranges.

                    the biggest reason why your daughters never got polio, smallpox, or diptheria is because they are lucky enough to live in a society where government funded vaccination and sanitation programs have largely eradicated such diseases. tomorrow, both your innoculated daughter and i can walk hand in hand through some third world country with poor sanitation and where smallpox or diptheria might exist and have very little to worry about compared to your un-innoculated daughter.


                    Originally posted by Karen View Post
                    Vaccines clearly do harm. ..... Vaccinations are questionable at best.
                    au contraire! it is not "clear" that vaccines do harm. most scientists and health practitioners today agree that vaccines are the opposite of harmful--they're beneficial. even concerns about mercury in vaccines have been discounted. still, as part of a environmental protection agency's program (pointing again to your bad and wrong assertion that the govmt has no business in health), organizations are taking the precautionary measure of eliminating the use of mercury in healthcare settings.

                    Originally posted by Karen View Post
                    I have a daughter that has never had one in her life and she's healthier than her sis that has had some.

                    one's immune system is affected by a multitudinous myriad of factors, such as sleep, genetics, environmental exposures. to come to the conclusion that one daughter's lack of vaccination is what made her more successful at fighting off disease than her immunized sister is about as sensible as me proposing that maybe you ingested the semen of your non-immunized daughter's father whilst pregnant with non-immunized daughter. clinical studies have shown that if a mother-to-be ingests the dna of her baby's father, she significantly boosts her child's immunity by effectively "feeding" her child the father's genetic immune system.

                    that i can't find the article about fellatio-fetal immune system connection (but hey! i can find this one!) bolsters my position that your implied assertion no vaccine = healthier daughter is as proveable as a hypothesis saying your non-vaccinated daughter's robust health correllates with your sexual practices when you were pregnant with her.

                    but see, i'm not the habitual dumb pronouncement-maker. in the rare occasions i do make a stupid statement, i apologize for it and correct it myself.
                    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                      oops. as eric likes to say, spontaneous self-replicating post.
                      superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                      "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                      nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                        Aww c'mon!!! LOL I wrote you a dayum book and the software told me to LOG IN!! why did it let me reply if I wasn't?!! LOL.....

                        Cyn, there's a TON of proof that immunizations do great harm. company coming, I'll type you a book or two on this when I do have time, AGAIN....thanks for showing me the apology, diggin it and yes, I made a hobby of researching the shots even before I had my 23yr old....here's a couple of websites that give the subject some justice, and I know there's a ton more. Maybe nine or ten years ago I printed up so much from the internet that it was a stack over a foot high, and if it had been allowed to be presented in a courtroom it actually could have won an argument against routine shots, no exaggeration.

                        Dang, gotta fly, maybe that was my longest post here to date, argh!


                        PS, LOL....yes fingers are running late here.....right here, post number 96 I summed up what I believe, and the book I hope to write you on here will be some of the most glaring things that support the whys of my beliefs.

                        http://hawaiithreads.com/showthread....ghlight=church



                        http://www.vaccinetruth.org/

                        http://www.vaccinationnews.com/

                        Both of these are very full websites and have documentation, and utilize a good number of medical doctors, no, not quacks but legitimate, licensed docs.

                        Enjoy....

                        (will write ya a dang book here when I can...)
                        Last edited by Karen; September 30, 2007, 05:41 PM.
                        Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                          Immunizations are suspicious & should be taken with wisdom and forethought because...

                          1969- and outbreak of Diptheria in Chicago- their city board of health reported that 4 of the 16 patients had been fully immunized and 5 others partially immunized, and two of the showed full immunity, but got the disease. A separate outbreak in which 3 died of it showed that one of the fatalities had been fully immunized. 14 of the 23 that came down with it were, also.

                          JAMA reported on a survey done in California of its ob-gyn docs, sorry don't have the year in my notes. NINETY percent of these docs refused to be vaccinated themselves for rubella. Why?!

                          Numerous studies have shown that women immunized against rubella when they were children lack immunity in adolescence, evidenced by blood tests. How is it, therefore mainly the shots that are preventing us from having more outbreaks?! (childhood diseases decreased in the fifties at a time when education and awareness about hygiene increased dramatically in society)

                          1978- a survey of 30 states showed that more than half of the kids that contracted measles were vaccinated for them. worse, the WHO stated that the chances are approx. 15 times! greater that measles will be contracted by vaccinated people.

                          1994- in a recent 39 month period, the FDA collected more than 54,000 reports of injury and death following vaccinations. It is believed that thousands of serious side effects are failing to be reported. Many a physician simply tells the parent they firmly believe the child's symptoms weren't because of the shot.

                          There is a little publicized program called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. it began in 1986 and by 1994 had paid out over 450 Million Dollars on more than 1000 awards. Doesn't make the news, does it? I had to research to learn about it.

                          The Journal of Pediatrics has reported that the whooping cough vaccine may only be fifty percent effective. July '94 the New England Journal of Med. posted a study that found that more than 80 percent! of children under 5 yrs. old that contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated! (again, WHY vaccinate?? and what other factors are at play here that are why we have as few outbreaks of these diseases as we do?)

                          I have little time, company's gone and I have some paperwork here at my desk, but suffice it to say that this isn't even the tip of the iceberg, and only a glance at my notes showed me these things that are glaringly negative about why we vaccinate. If given the time I can produce five hundred more pages like this but of course don't plan on doing so.

                          I will be glad to type more pages like this.
                          Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                            oh, karen, thanks for the sentiment, but if you're posting to "educate" me, i'm not interested.

                            as i've said before, i'm no clinician, but i work daily with physicians and other hospital professionals; eric used to work at kapiolani's NICU. neither of us have ever met a healthcare professional or a medical malpractice attorney who outright rejected vaccination, as you do. additionally, we believe that national and international organizations like the cdc, the iom, and the who are quite credible and have done quite extensive research into whether vaccines are harmful or not, and all agree that the risks associated with vaccination are heavily outweighed by the benefits.

                            the Joint Commission, which is the independent healthcare accrediting/certification organization for America hospitals, long term care homes, assisting living centers, etc., has, as part of its national patient safety goals, advocated the use of pneumococcal and influenza vaccines.

                            looking more closely at two of the things you mentioned:

                            any concerns borne out of the chicago diptheria "outbreak" in 1969 have been nullified by the fact that the vaccine used then is not the one used now.

                            JAMA, which you cited, has scads of articles advocating rubella vaccination. here's one from 1992.

                            this is not to say that there is no dissent amongs the medical community about vaccines or any other aspect of healthcare (because by golly, there is), but the overwhelming evidence on vaccines is contrary to whatever you might have. so, go ahead and write your "book" if it amuses you. i suggest you start your own thread, tho.

                            with that segue, and to go back on topic--it's telling that the resident registered nurse on HT advocates vaccines, and even chose to vaccinate herself voluntarily against Hep B. WORN, as any healthcare professional worth her license would, does say that any patient or parent can refuse the HPV vaccine if s/he chooses, but only after full disclosure about what it can/not do.
                            Last edited by cynsaligia; September 30, 2007, 11:23 PM. Reason: extraneous statement deleted for the benefit of the majority of HT readers, who are not hopelessly stupid.
                            superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                            "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                            nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Mandatory Medical Treatment

                              Sentiment? the only one I see is that you don't want to be confused with facts that you hadn't encountered yet.

                              When healthcare professionals go to school for their chosen profession they only know what they are taught, and they can be greatly ostracized if they dare to think "outside the box." "Sacred cows" do exist even in their profession.

                              I'm not posting "just for you." I'll post a few more facts when I have time, or a ton more.

                              Back on topic, well I never left it. It is that the govt. has NO just or right business butting into our medical treatment, or our choice of the lack of. You say it does and is already and I say....hmm....where is it? I don't see it. That word "mandatory" just doesn't sit well with the other two, per this thread title.

                              I'll post more about the truth, often hidden as best it can be, about immunizations and the sometimes great harm they do, and even when not.....the very questionable "good" many are convinced, or is that brainwashed? to believe they do.


                              Cyn, since you enjoy throwing words like "stupidity" around I really should stop posting when rushed and pay attention to detail. You said "furthermore, to suggest that mandated vaccination is akin to forcing chemotherapy on cancer patients is about as nuances as saying apples are like oranges."

                              The topic here is "mandated medical treatment" and they both fall very well under it. HPV shot which the thread opener had in mind is something that is being mandated for our children, and so are immunizations. I had our kids in mind as I posted and I would think that was obvious. The govt. has not yet gotten so intrusive that it tries to force adults to have chemo but it does this routinely to kids, hence my referring to chemo and the shots in one post or even one paragraph was and is fitting and proper.
                              Last edited by Karen; October 1, 2007, 08:39 AM. Reason: too rushed earlier ;)
                              Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

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