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The Iraq War - Chapter 5

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  • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    Redeploying troops to the borders of Iran and Syria may sound good on paper but in reality, would be a different story. We can't even keep our border with Mexico secured much less in someone else's country. Besides, our military in general may not have proper training as border agents. It's one thing to be trained to lay waste to the enemy, another to act as civilian gatekeepers.

    Problem is, an American military presence there is as much a liability as it is an asset to the stability of Iraq. I would push on with training Iraqi troops. And I would suggest looking into funding a UN force out there. I'm not talking about a mickey mouse, show of flag UN force, but something more serious. A UN force will help diffuse some of the politics going on, it would seem less of western imperialism.

    And another move should be for the American gov't to get into talks with Iran and Syria. You need to get them on board to stabilize the place.
    The Prez has given the military the power to shoot or capture Iranian fighters who venture into Iraq, and I'm sure he would do the same for al Qaeda/Hezbollah agents trying to cross from Syria. Our soldiers could do more than the US Border Patrol can (for one thing, border guards at our southern border can't shoot illegal aliens who try to cross into our country.)

    So Syria and Iran should definitely not be called in to "help stablize" Iraq. If the Iraqis don't do it for themselves, then we will have the same situation as we're in now...foreign powers trying to change things. What Syria and Iran can do diplomatically is stop meddling in Iraq by allowing insurgents to leave their countries to fight in Iraq.

    Having UN forces in there wouldn't work because if you recall, there was sort of a UN force in there with us...remember the "Coalition of the Willing?" Well, by the end of this year, everyone but the US will have pulled up stakes and headed for the hills. UN Forces aren't able to do much in Lebanon, where there is a little less violence, so I have grave doubts about their being effective in a civil war in Iraq (they didn't do so hot in Kosovo, either, as I recall).

    The troops that we have in Iraq today have not been trained to be instructors anyway. So their mission would have to be totally changed and they all would need more training. If anyone can pull that part off, it would be the current head of our forces in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, because he's been called "the thinking man's general". The guy has been in charge of training soldiers in the past, so at least he understands the logistical and practical things involved in that job. He also helped write the current counterinsurgency manual, which is what they will use to train the Iraqi forces. But even he has admitted that he has a daunting task.

    If I had my druthers, I druther have all our troops home asap, but that's not practical, either. So if they have to stay there, let's get more of them out of harm's way (i.e., Baghdad and Anbar province) and keep other countries from sending their fighters in to muddy the issue. Most of the countries surrounding Iraq are Sunni countries, so while the current Iraqi government is Shia dominated, it's kinda outnumbered.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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    • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

      I think you're missing my point. Getting Syria and Iran on board doesn't mean asking them to send soldiers in. It means to get them to keep their borders in check to prevent foreign fighters from flowing into Iraq much like how Pakistan helped us by watching their border with Afghanistan. It may not be the most ideal scenario but it's better than constantly butting heads with Syria and Iran. All that will do is encourage them to look the other way at the borders.

      Coalition of the Willing is not the UN. Pretending to make it look multi-national is not the same as UN. And I mentioned funding a stronger UN force. With the budget planned for our military in Iraq, better to use that to fund a stronger UN force. Why? Again, the presence of American troops is as much a problem as a solution. How do you expect to resolve the issue when your mere presence is an underlying cause of the problem? So you need different troops under a different flag to have a calming effect. Not unless you got insurgents declaring war on the UN too. But it is so easy for them to recruit right now by inciting violence against the hated Americans. Remove that and that's less fuel to the fire.

      So you have your UN force and you couple it with the continued training of Iraqi troops. And like you mentioned, training is done by instructors.

      Like you said, just bringing our troops home won't resolve the issue. But neither is just having them there. The surge may produce some short term gains but long term, there needs to be a policing force that isn't waving the American flag. Not to say a UN force combined with an Iraqi force will solve the issue but it does remove a sore point, us being there and annoying them.

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      • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        I think you're missing my point. Getting Syria and Iran on board doesn't mean asking them to send soldiers in. It means to get them to keep their borders in check to prevent foreign fighters from flowing into Iraq much like how Pakistan helped us by watching their border with Afghanistan. It may not be the most ideal scenario but it's better than constantly butting heads with Syria and Iran. All that will do is encourage them to look the other way at the borders.

        Coalition of the Willing is not the UN. Pretending to make it look multi-national is not the same as UN. And I mentioned funding a stronger UN force. With the budget planned for our military in Iraq, better to use that to fund a stronger UN force. Why? Again, the presence of American troops is as much a problem as a solution. How do you expect to resolve the issue when your mere presence is an underlying cause of the problem? So you need different troops under a different flag to have a calming effect. Not unless you got insurgents declaring war on the UN too. But it is so easy for them to recruit right now by inciting violence against the hated Americans. Remove that and that's less fuel to the fire.

        So you have your UN force and you couple it with the continued training of Iraqi troops. And like you mentioned, training is done by instructors.

        Like you said, just bringing our troops home won't resolve the issue. But neither is just having them there. The surge may produce some short term gains but long term, there needs to be a policing force that isn't waving the American flag. Not to say a UN force combined with an Iraqi force will solve the issue but it does remove a sore point, us being there and annoying them.
        You wanna bet the UN would get very few other countries to get involved in a UN peacekeeping force? NOBODY wants to be in the middle of a civil war, because you end up getting shot at by both sides. I'm sorry, as much as I'd like to believe that the UN used to have clout, now it's just a place for countries to talk about sanctions that countries like Iran choose to ignore. Or more cynically, we could just hire more mercenaries. They know how to kill and they don't have any allegiance to any country.

        Miulang

        P.S. If Pakistan really was our friend, they would have delivered OBL to us by now. If Pakistan really was our friend, they wouldn't let people in their government sell nuclear materials to "enemies" of ours. Musharraf is a crass opportunist and will help the highest bidder for his services. In case you have forgotten, most al Qaeda fighters have gotten their training in Pakistan.
        Last edited by Miulang; February 5, 2007, 08:43 PM.
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

        Comment


        • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

          Originally posted by Miulang View Post
          You wanna bet the UN would get very few other countries to get involved in a UN peacekeeping force? NOBODY wants to be in the middle of a civil war, because you end up getting shot at by both sides. I'm sorry, as much as I'd like to believe that the UN used to have clout, now it's just a place for countries to talk about sanctions that countries like Iran choose to ignore. Or more cynically, we could just hire more mercenaries. They know how to kill and they don't have any allegiance to any country.

          Miulang

          P.S. If Pakistan really was our friend, they would have delivered OBL to us by now. If Pakistan really was our friend, they wouldn't let people in their government sell nuclear materials to "enemies" of ours. Musharraf is a crass opportunist and will help the highest bidder for his services. In case you have forgotten, most al Qaeda fighters have gotten their training in Pakistan.
          I'm sure the UN can get contributing nations if the US is funding it. Money talks. And yes, it's basically hiring mercenaries but it be mercenaries under a different flag. I thought about using NATO instead. But NATO is mostly a western alliance so it may still convey western imperialism. Or perhaps if you can get some crazy worldwide taskforce together like NATO, SCO, and AU. We basically opened Pandora's Box and now we can't close it.

          Yes, I'm aware of Pakistan's questionable friendship. But since when has diplomacy been clean cut, black and white? Don't forget, OBL participated as a Mujahadeen back in the day in Afghanistan and the US backed the Mujahadeen. We also backed Saddam Hussein. We also backed Ho Chi Minh. Politics is a very dirty game.

          Comment


          • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            Yes, I'm aware of Pakistan's questionable friendship. But since when has diplomacy been clean cut, black and white? Don't forget, OBL participated as a Mujahadeen back in the day in Afghanistan and the US backed the Mujahadeen. We also backed Saddam Hussein. We also backed Ho Chi Minh. Politics is a very dirty game.
            We backed the Shah of Iran. We backed Fidel Castro. We backed Agosto Pinochet. We're backing the current repressive Saudi government. We always seem to pick as friends the very people who end up biting us in the butts down the road and who we later have to try to eliminate. Now why is that?

            Miulang
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

            Comment


            • A day in the life of our troops in Baghdad...

              ...soldiers in a task force from the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, who have patrolled Baghdad for months, say that trying to gain cooperation from Iraqi civilians is a thankless struggle. They say they feel powerless to prevent the city's slide into wider war and that Iraqis seldom open up to them with detailed intelligence. Since the task force of more than 800 soldiers arrived in August, 15 of them have been killed.

              Although their commanders argue otherwise, the extent of the challenge led some soldiers to express doubt in interviews that the additional 17,500 American troops slated for Baghdad can make a lasting difference.
              Our troops trying to win the hearts and minds of the civilians in Baghdad, are having a very difficult time, which is causing frustration.

              Miulang
              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

              Comment


              • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                We backed the Shah of Iran. We backed Fidel Castro. We backed Agosto Pinochet. We're backing the current repressive Saudi government. We always seem to pick as friends the very people who end up biting us in the butts down the road and who we later have to try to eliminate. Now why is that?

                Miulang
                Because we choose our friends for the wrong reasons. We base our friends on the needs of corporate America and special interests. More often than not, the people we support don't bring "democracy" to the respective country.

                Comment


                • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                  Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                  Because we choose our friends for the wrong reasons. We base our friends on the needs of corporate America and special interests. More often than not, the people we support don't bring "democracy" to the respective country.
                  And that's because America is always trying to "force" or use "the spread of democracy" as a lying justification for anything and everything. America has absolutely NO right forcing this on other countries (haven't we already gone through this lesson?), just as other countries have no right telling us how to run our country. Americans have the nerve ...

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                    I would rather spend $100 billion to help repair the shattered bodies and minds of the brave soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan than use that money to send another 21,500 soldiers into a place where a good percentage of them will also return from as shattered individuals.

                    Here is the sad story of one soldier who returned from Iraq with PTSD and who could not get help in time. He was suicidal, the VA Hospital knew he was suicidal, but apparently didn't do enough to get him into a mental hospital to keep him from killing himself.

                    The pricetag that all of us will pay to help these veterans will eventually total in the billions because more soldiers are surviving their injuries but are damaged enough to require treatment.

                    It's time for this country to change its priorities toward our troops. If we send them to fight for us, we'd better be prepared to take care of them when they come home, too. It's our obligation as a nation and their right as men and women who sacrificed their bodies for us.

                    Miulang
                    Last edited by Miulang; February 12, 2007, 10:47 PM.
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • The wrong reasons to go to war

                      The only right reason to go to war is if you or your country have been attacked on your own soil. The wrong reason to volunteer to go to war is because it will bring you a hefty signing bonus, or help scratch that itch you might have to want to blow somebody to smithereens. The wrong reason is because you've been brainwashed and told not to question, just do.

                      How many of the troops who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan, are unstable enough to use the killing skills they learned, on us, somewhere down the road? If they can call innocent Iraqi civilians "collateral damage" instead of acknowledging them as fellow human beings---give these people faces and families who mourn their deaths---what will they do to any of us if they have fits of rage and go on a rampage?

                      Miulang
                      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                        Every single one of my military friends joined because of the money and benefits. I heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Most of them are already on their third and fourth tours. I've had one acquaintance return home missing part of the back of his head--he walks around in a daze, has trouble speaking clearly, and doesn't remember a lot of his friends.

                        I have yet to meet anyone in my circle of friends who says he/she is doing it to protect our country.

                        And I agree w/Miulang--the ONLY reason to go to war is if you've been attacked on your own soil.

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                          here is another sad story...great way to support the troops.

                          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17160574/

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                            Where do the young men and women who are dying for us in Iraq come from? Increasingly, from the small towns that dot rural America.

                            Across the nation, small towns are quietly bearing a disproportionate burden of war. Nearly half of the more than 3,100 U.S. military fatalities in Iraq have come from towns like McKeesport, where fewer than 25,000 people live, according to an analysis by The Associated Press. One in five hailed from hometowns of less than 5,000.

                            Many of the hometowns of the war dead aren't just small, they're poor. The AP analysis found that nearly three quarters of those killed in Iraq came from towns where the per capita income was below the national average. More than half came from towns where the percentage of people living in poverty topped the national average.

                            ...On a per capita basis, states with mostly rural populations have suffered the highest casualties in Iraq. Vermont, South Dakota, Alaska, North Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, Delaware, Montana, Louisiana and Oregon top the list, the AP found.

                            ...Diminished opportunities are one factor in higher military enlistment rates in rural areas. From 1997 to 2003, 1.5 million rural workers lost their jobs due to changes in industries like manufacturing that have traditionally employed rural workers, according to the Carsey Institute.

                            ...Entrepreneurs in many small communities have lost their businesses after deploying in the Guard and Reserves, said Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont. More federal dollars also are needed to ensure that returning troops have easy access to veterans health centers, he said.'

                            ..."You don't see anyone who has money putting their children into the military," she said. "I'm all for our soldiers. Without them our country wouldn't be where we are today, but this war just doesn't seem right. Like the Vietnam one. It's not right."
                            Miulang
                            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • Who says its not about oil?

                              A new Iraqi oil policy is very quietly flying under the radar of the American media and, to a great extent, the Iraqi government.

                              The legislation was drafted with the encouragement
                              and assistance of the White House and its surrogates. One
                              of those surrogates was U.S. consulting firm Bearing Point
                              Inc., which was contracted by the administration of George
                              W. Bush over a year ago to aid the Iraq Oil Ministry—the
                              one ministry that U.S. forces did guard during the looting
                              that ensued after the fall of Baghdad. The Independent newspaper
                              obtained a copy of a draft of the oil law circulated to
                              oil companies in July 2006 and reported on its details on
                              January 7, 2007.

                              The law as detailed in that draft is highly unusual for the
                              Middle East, where other countries outlaw granting foreign
                              companies direct interest in oil production. Under this
                              draft hydrocarbon law, major Western oil companies would
                              be granted Production Sharing Agreements (PSAs) for up
                              to thirty years and, in at least the first few years, would reap
                              up to 75 percent of the profits from both developed and
                              undeveloped oil fields. Key to these PSAs is that they would
                              be “locked in” regardless of the government in power
                              .
                              The fact that erstwhile BearingPoint (the same guys that messed up Hawaiian Telecom's transition) had a hand in drafting the policy says a lot... and a lot say that the real reason why we even went to Iraq was to ensure that we had access to Iraqi oil.

                              Miulang
                              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                                There are now more than 120,000 civilian contractors working in Iraq (hired by defense subcontractors like Halliburton and Blackwater), compared to 135,000 US troops. A civilian contractor earns 6x what an Army private earns to do the same job. What's wrong with that picture? We've outsourced our occupation in Iraq, and we are and will pay for it in more than one way.

                                Miulang
                                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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