The Iraq War - Chapter 5

[Miulang]

Re: The Great Wall of Adhamiya

It was relatively peaceful under Saddam because he provided overwhelming oppression and put sectarian differences on the back burner. Now you got full scale violence. If breaking Baghdad into tiny enclaves will reduce the violence, then that's good. Walls can always be removed when things turn better. If the walls attract the bombs, then good, better than the bombs going off at the stores, hospitals, police stations.

Tell that to the people who live behind the walls in Gaza and the West Bank. Even with the walls, there is violence. The children living inside the walls are growing up resenting the people who built the walls. And when they grow up, they could end up being potential terrorists.

If the Iraqis want to put up walls in order to prevent sectarian violence, then they should be the ones doing it, not us. We should not be involved in a civil war, which is clearly what Iraq is in right now.

One of the complaints of the people is that all the enclaves that are being walled in are Sunni...was this by accident or design? Many Sunni residents have Shia friends who no longer can visit them.

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: The Great Wall of Adhamiya

If the Iraqis want to put up walls in order to prevent sectarian violence, then they should be the ones doing it, not us. We should not be involved in a civil war, which is clearly what Iraq is in right now.Miulang

The Iraqis and most Middle Easterners are hopeless. The Americans did a great job trying to lead the poor soles toward a better life, but they apparently don't want a better life in the way we might define it. They like killing and fighting and blowing their children up.

I say we build one big asssss wall around the entire Middle East and just let them kill themselves off. That would be a great Hollywood movie. You guys can steal it. What was the New York one where the city was deserted?

Anyway, the Middle East stinks and it always has. America's presence has nothing to do with their hate and murder. Only the Miulangs of the world are blind in that way.

Wall um off and let um rot. That's what I say.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

Interesting column in today's Washington Post, comparing the walls being built in Baghdad to the "peace line" in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

Walls divide; they do not unite. Walls give concrete expression to hatreds and prejudices, establishing them as artifacts not of the mind but of the landscape. When I was The Post's London correspondent in the early 1990s, I covered the Northern Ireland conflict. The first thing I went to see in Belfast was the notorious "peace line" between the Falls Road, a Catholic stronghold, and Shankill Road, a Protestant redoubt. Everything looked the same on both sides -- the houses, the shops, the people -- yet it was as if they were two different countries. Animosities had been passed down through generations. Even now, 15 years later, a civil exchange between two of the leading antagonists -- Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams -- is big news.

How many years will it take to get to that point in Baghdad?

Bush has enmeshed the United States in a civil conflict that will take years, probably decades, to resolve. The building of walls mocks the administration's happy-talk rhetoric about how much political progress the Iraqis are making. If the Iraqi government really were the exercise in inclusive democracy that Bush claims, walls would be coming down. Putting up walls only makes sense if the White House foresees a substantial U.S. military presence in Iraq for many years to come

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: The Great Wall of Adhamiya

Tell that to the people who live behind the walls in Gaza and the West Bank. Even with the walls, there is violence. The children living inside the walls are growing up resenting the people who built the walls. And when they grow up, they could end up being potential terrorists.

If the Iraqis want to put up walls in order to prevent sectarian violence, then they should be the ones doing it, not us. We should not be involved in a civil war, which is clearly what Iraq is in right now.

One of the complaints of the people is that all the enclaves that are being walled in are Sunni...was this by accident or design? Many Sunni residents have Shia friends who no longer can visit them.

Miulang

Do you equate all walls as bad then? The walls in Gaza and West Bank went up for different reasons. From what you are saying, you rather see Iraq get torn apart by the retreat tactic? Remember, it's a civil war that came about from the US destabilizing the Saddam, ironically the stabilizing force.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

We need to think about the reasons for building walls: is it to keep something in, or to keep something out? The Berlin Wall, the Peace Line in Belfast, the wall in Bosnia, the walls in the Occupied Territories, the wall the President wants to build between us and Mexico, and now the walls being built around Sunni enclaves in Baghdad.

Robert Frost's poem "Mending Wall" immediately comes to mind. Here is one interpretation of that poem.

Miulang

P.S. A news flash: the walls in Baghdad may not be built after all; Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki ordered the US government to halt the project on Sunday after visiting and speaking with leaders of Sunni-led Arab countries. And a report from al Jazeera.

[joshuatree]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

We need to think about the reasons for building walls: is it to keep something in, or to keep something out? The Berlin Wall, the Peace Line in Belfast, the wall in Bosnia, the walls in the Occupied Territories, the wall the President wants to build between us and Mexico, and now the walls being built around Sunni enclaves in Baghdad.

Robert Frost's poem "Mending Wall" immediately comes to mind. Here is one interpretation of that poem.

Miulang

P.S. A news flash: the walls in Baghdad may not be built after all; Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki ordered the US government to halt the project on Sunday after visiting and speaking with leaders of Sunni-led Arab countries. And a report from al Jazeera.

There are times to build walls and times not to. Why do single family homes have fences and walls then if walls are nothing but evil? In the case of Iraq, it's to impede and keep out insurgents who don't belong in a neighborhood, yet they go there, blow stuff up to incite violence, and take off.

You speak of walls as failures. You mentioned the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was a success, it's goal was to divide up the city and it did it well for decades. Did the Peace Line in Belfast not calm things down, even though it took decades?

Maliki's a lame duck. He's trying to straddle the fence. He doesn't want to piss off Moktada (sp?) yet his administration's gonna fall apart if the US leaves.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

There are times to build walls and times not to. Why do single family homes have fences and walls then if walls are nothing but evil? In the case of Iraq, it's to impede and keep out insurgents who don't belong in a neighborhood, yet they go there, blow stuff up to incite violence, and take off.

You speak of walls as failures. You mentioned the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was a success, it's goal was to divide up the city and it did it well for decades. Did the Peace Line in Belfast not calm things down, even though it took decades?

Maliki's a lame duck. He's trying to straddle the fence. He doesn't want to piss off Moktada (sp?) yet his administration's gonna fall apart if the US leaves.

Which I guess is why Hillary is suggesting that the US has to keep a permanent force in Iraq: "to protect America's interests". The Sadrists have all resigned from the Iraqi Parliament, and the Egyptians (Sunnis) in particular are breathing hard down al Maliki's (a Shia) neck to stop being partial to the Shia. Perhaps if there are walls to be built, then some Shia neighborhoods should also have the same kinds of "protection" to make it seem less like the Sunni are being discriminated against. It also appears that construction on the walls started prior to the local villagers being notified. It's typical of us...assuming that we know what's best for everyone without first consulting with them. As I stated earlier, if the Iraqi government wanted to build walls, let THEM do it.

Miulang

P.S. Not all walls are failures. Fences in pastures keep cows and sheep from trampling into areas where they aren't wanted. But cattle guards placed over crossings could do the same thing, or moats filled with water.

[joshuatree]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

Which I guess is why Hillary is suggesting that the US has to keep a permanent force in Iraq: "to protect America's interests". The Sadrists have all resigned from the Iraqi Parliament, and the Egyptians (Sunnis) in particular are breathing hard down al Maliki's (a Shia) neck to stop being partial to the Shia. Perhaps if there are walls to be built, then some Shia neighborhoods should also have the same kinds of "protection" to make it seem less like the Sunni are being discriminated against. It also appears that construction on the walls started prior to the local villagers being notified. It's typical of us...assuming that we know what's best for everyone without first consulting with them. As I stated earlier, if the Iraqi government wanted to build walls, let THEM do it.

Miulang

P.S. Not all walls are failures. Fences in pastures keep cows and sheep from trampling into areas where they aren't wanted. But cattle guards placed over crossings could do the same thing, or moats filled with water.

I don't think the US military is favoring Sunnis or Shias, they are building the walls where the neighborhoods have the highest amount of violence.

Unless the US can reduce its dependence on foreign oil, you better expect an American presence in the area. If we just pull out and let things go wild on its own, $3 gal gas would be nothing.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

I don't think the US military is favoring Sunnis or Shias, they are building the walls where the neighborhoods have the highest amount of violence.

Unless the US can reduce its dependence on foreign oil, you better expect an American presence in the area. If we just pull out and let things go wild on its own, $3 gal gas would be nothing.

The irony of it all is that maybe the notion of walled enclaves might just work to unite the Iraqis rather than divide them. Meanwhile, to the North, the Kurds are enjoying their freedom while anxiously watching the Turkish border.

Kinda like when you have two siblings squabbling over a piece of candy. As the parent, you have several options: do nothing and let them kill each other, take the candy away and deprive both of them, split the candy in two exact pieces, or have one kid divide the candy and let the other kid decide which piece to take.

Miulang

P.S. You're right $3 gas is nothing...in France, Susie says she pays $8/liter.

[joshuatree]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

The irony of it all is that maybe the notion of walled enclaves might just work to unite the Iraqis rather than divide them. Meanwhile, to the North, the Kurds are enjoying their freedom while anxiously watching the Turkish border.

Kinda like when you have two siblings squabbling over a piece of candy. As the parent, you have several options: do nothing and let them kill each other, take the candy away and deprive both of them, split the candy in two exact pieces, or have one kid divide the candy and let the other kid decide which piece to take.

Miulang

P.S. You're right $3 gas is nothing...in France, Susie says she pays $8/liter.

I think Iraq needs to be put back under some sort of draconian rule. The presumption that people will know what to do with democracy is a misguided presumption. Heck, even the US had to go through 230 years before getting to where we are today. I think walls, restricted travel, etc may sound anti-democratic but it should help keep order. Hopefully, over time, Iraqis will learn to address their differences with words and debate rather than with guns and bombs. But that's a big wish.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

I think Iraq needs to be put back under some sort of draconian rule. The presumption that people will know what to do with democracy is a misguided presumption. Heck, even the US had to go through 230 years before getting to where we are today. I think walls, restricted travel, etc may sound anti-democratic but it should help keep order. Hopefully, over time, Iraqis will learn to address their differences with words and debate rather than with guns and bombs. But that's a big wish.

If it must be draconian, then let the restrictions be meted out by Iraqis, not the US. We've already lost our street cred with the rest of the world because we are an occupier. Time for us to concentrate on things closer to home. Funny how the "surge" is bringing more violence, not less. As Baghdad gets more secure, the violence will once again erupt even more ferociously in other provinces. If we can't even secure the Green Zone, then how can we expect to secure all of Iraq?

Miulang

BTW: Vietnam seems to be doing OK, even after we left, and the last I heard, they had a non-Democratic government, yes?And the North and South are one country again.

[joshuatree]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

If it must be draconian, then let the restrictions be meted out by Iraqis, not the US. We've already lost our street cred with the rest of the world because we are an occupier. Time for us to concentrate on things closer to home. Funny how the "surge" is bringing more violence, not less. As Baghdad gets more secure, the violence will once again erupt even more ferociously in other provinces. If we can't even secure the Green Zone, then how can we expect to secure all of Iraq?

Miulang

BTW: Vietnam seems to be doing OK, even after we left, and the last I heard, they had a non-Democratic government, yes?And the North and South are one country again.

Unfortunately, how do you expect Iraqis to resolve themselves? They're too busy blowing each other up. Like your example with two kids fighting over the piece of candy, you expect the two kids to resolve it peacefully? I don't think the surge has increased the violence, sounds about the same to me, SSDD. I think walls are a right step, next is to introduce a little bit of the commie style of governing, needing ID documents to even travel from one hood to the other.

Vietnam is a relatively homogeneous society that was split by political ideology, not religious differences. Plus, one side (communists) completely ovewhelmed and won. Think of either the Sunnis or Shias dominating. Besides, you should ask some of the Vietnamese community in Westminster, OC, CA if it's considered OK.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

Unfortunately, how do you expect Iraqis to resolve themselves? They're too busy blowing each other up. Like your example with two kids fighting over the piece of candy, you expect the two kids to resolve it peacefully? I don't think the surge has increased the violence, sounds about the same to me, SSDD. I think walls are a right step, next is to introduce a little bit of the commie style of governing, needing ID documents to even travel from one hood to the other.

The majority of the people being blown up are innocent bystanders. The religious zealots are the ones doing the damage.

Our current strategy in Iraq is to take our troops out of fortified areas and place them within the different communities where they can interact with the locals. I do believe that this is why we're putting up the concrete walls...to protect our troops, not necessarily to protect the residents. There's no guarantee that the walls will prevent suicide bombers from infiltrating the perimeter. They have already done damage within the Green Zone in the last few weeks, and that was supposed to be the most highly fortified area in the country. The insurgents are now starting to increase their activities outside of Baghdad (in Diyala and Anbar provinces), so in a sense, we're chasing after ghosts, because the minute we secure a piece of ground and then leave it up to the Iraqi security forces to hold the area, the insurgents come back and start killing innocent people again.

Hardly anyone is paying attention to the humanitarian crisis that is being caused by the large masses of Iraqis trying to flee the violence. There are estimates that approximately 50,000 residents are leaving Iraq every month, many are making their way to Syria. If the occupation and war go on for much longer, there won't be many Iraqis left, and who will fill the void? Will the US "colonize" that country, the way Israel has colonized Palestine, to ensure that our interests are protected? It's really tragic when you think about what a cultural and historical mecca Baghdad used to be...and the rubble of a city that it now is.

Miulang

[Miulang]

The Failures of our generals in Iraq

A most remarkable article is being published in the current issue of Armed Forces Journal. It was written by Army Lt. Col. Paul Yingling, deputy commander, 3rd Armored Calvary Regiment. He has served two tours in Iraq, another in Bosnia and a fourth in Operation Desert Storm. Lt. Col. Yingling's article is remarkable because it publicly shows the simmering rift between the younger officers and the generals in command.

Until now, charges of incompetent leadership have not been made as publicly by an Army officer as Yingling does in his article.

"After going into Iraq with too few troops and no coherent plan for postwar stabilization, America's general officer corps did not accurately portray the intensity of the insurgency to the American public," he writes. "For reasons that are not yet clear, America's general officer corps underestimated the strength of the enemy, overestimated the capabilities of Iraq's government and security forces and failed to provide Congress with an accurate assessment of security conditions in Iraq."

Yingling said he decided to write the article after attending Purple Heart and deployment ceremonies for Army soldiers. "I find it hard to look them in the eye," he said in an interview. "Our generals are not worthy of their soldiers."

The article

Miulang

[waioli kai]

Iraqi fleeing consequences of U.S. occupation

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--Hardly anyone is paying attention to the humanitarian crisis that is being caused by the large masses of Iraqis trying to flee the violence. There are estimates that approximately 50,000 residents are leaving Iraq every month, many are making their way to Syria. If the occupation and war go on for much longer, there won't be many Iraqis left, and who will fill the void? Will the US "colonize" that country, the way Israel has colonized Palestine, to ensure that our interests are protected? It's really tragic when you think about what a cultural and historical mecca Baghdad used to be...and the rubble of a city that it now is.-- Miulang

Over five years ago the U.S. military/civilian leadership had boasted that it had plans to deal with a humanitarian crisis of refugees fleeing Iraq consequent to U.S.'s yet-to-occur invasion planned for later in March 2002. Perhaps it's not too late to put their plan into action now, five years later though Iraqi are not fleeing a U.S. invasion but are fleeing a U.S. occupation?