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Thread: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

  1. #326
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    Lightbulb Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Rightwingers have been wrong on virtually everything good and correct for decades...Dems (and any/all non-righties) are all for this stupid BS so called war being over in the best way possible asap
    Ron, your post implies that only left-leaning people and politicians support ending the war in Iraq. This is false. U.S. Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), and five other Republican congressman actually voted against authorizing the Iraq War. In the Senate, Sen. Lincoln Chafee (R-Rhode Island) also voted nay. Sen. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, voted FOR the authorization of military force. She has refused to apologize for this.

    Since then, other conservatives like Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Nebraska) have repeatedly chastised Bush and expressed vocal opposition to prolonging the war in Iraq.

    It’s easy to blanketly blame conservatives for everything wrong in this country, but the reality is, many of them are good people with good intentions. The real problem lies with the “neocons” like Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowitz who have hijacked the Republican Party and its agenda.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  2. #327

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Yes, it was a generalization, but only a slight one and about the only example that can be found of any importance.
    There are probably few absolutes in this world, but republicans being the bane of this country, and setting the lowest standards around the world for bad, is undeniable. They have told their political and white collar criminals in this country and the other despots on this planet that it's OK to do whatever, and the US, except for a little lip service at best, won't do a damn thing about it now.

    It is indeed easy to blanketly blame repulicans for everything wrong, not just in America but everywhere, as they are to blame. Go down the endless list of problems and you'll ultimately find them as the root cause, or enablers, or guilty by ommission. This is not to say that others don't share 'some' culpability as well in many matters, but the lion's share goes to our great friends on the right. And what a shame they have corrupter the word RIGHT as well!
    Plus, how can the 'good ones' stay as republicans after 9/12, not to mention the rest of 'the Bush legacy'? Guilty by association in my book.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 24th, 2008 at 03:57 PM.

  3. #328
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    Lightbulb Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Yes, it was a generalization, but only a slight one
    You’ve got to be kidding me, Ron. Would you care to stick Abraham Lincoln in there too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    republicans being the bane of this country, and setting the lowest standards around the world for bad, is undeniable. They have told their political and white collar criminals in this country and the other despots on this planet that it's OK to do whatever, and the US, except for a little lip service at best, won't do a damn thing about it now.
    In this single paragraph, you have confused Republicans, the CFR, conservatives, neocons, Democrats and the CIA. Each of these entities played (and continue to play) a separate role in the vague concerns you outline. I would seriously suggest you do some research before what little is left of your credibility evaporates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Plus, how can the 'good ones' stay as republicans after 9/12, not to mention the rest of 'the Bush legacy'? Guilty by association in my book.
    Jim Jeffords (Independent-Vermont) was a Republican who left the GOP prior to voting “nay” on the Iraq war. Lincoln Chafee is now a Democrat who has endorsed Obama. Ron Paul left the Republican Party in 1988 to run for President as a Libertarian. He has since returned. The current Libertarian candidate, Bob Barr, is a former Republican. And even three-time presidential candidate and MSNBC commentator Pat Buchanan, who served in the Nixon and Reagan administrations, has renounced the Republicans in favor of the Reform Party.

    In contrast, Joe Lieberman, a man who owes the Democratic Party his soul, has not only endorsed John McCain, he is frequently mentioned as a possible running mate. He and Hillary make a pair. So shouldn’t we condemn Democrats as well? “Guilt by association.” YOUR WORDS.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  4. #329

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    However way anyone wants to assign blame for the war in Iraq, what's clear is this. The Republican brand has really been tarnished for the last couple of years. Even my brother (a lifelong GOP voter) acknowledges this. Bush and his administration leaving the country mired in an unpopular war in Iraq while Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda are still on the loose nearly 7 years after 9/11. And then there's the economic mess we are in. The recession, mortgage crisis, and out-of-control gas prices.

    Dare I say it? The Republicans in 2008 find themselves in a deeper hole to dig out of than in '74 with Watergate.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  5. #330

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    How to get out of it? Any suggestions?

    Here is the best I can come up with. From the start, I admit it has serious flaws but it is very hard to imagine this war ending any way but badly...US pulls out, establishes heavy base in Kuwait...tells Iraq to sort it out and that if they establish an Al Qaeda dominated gvt. or any other radical gvt. it will be eliminated by missile attack. Horrible, I know.

    Obviously Saddam Hussein was not a nice guy, but it is also obvious that Iraq was a fractured society that needed to be held together with an iron fist if it was not to disintegrate. Hussein did that. Iraq was a natural counterbalance to Iran, which automatically took dominance in the region once Iraq became the basket case we made it. So now we are mad at Iran. We need to clearly understand that starting a war with Iran would make the war with Iraq look like a day at the beach, it would be a disaster for the whole world definitely including the US. Yet conservative commentators are now saying that if Obama wins in November Mr. Bush will have every incentive to attack Iran. Would that be considered blackmail or extortion?

    Finally, one of the sharpest pieces of international politics of the 20th century was President Bush's--the elected one's--decision to NOT attack Iraq after liberating Kuwait. Leaving Saddam Hussein in power kept our troops and our money and our economy off the line. Hussein was wounded but still able to hold Iran at bay. The fine balance between Iran and Iraq was maintained. I repeat...never send a spoiled rich brat to do a man's job.

    Several years ago Air America aired an interview with Mr. Bush's economics professor from college, a professor Tsurumi, who said that Mr. Bush would seldom do any work, and would fail as a result, and that when he failed he would always blame those around him. Sound familiar? You can Google Professor Tsurumi's interview. What a shame the ha ha ha news media never did any background on Mr. Bush before the 2000 election.

  6. #331

    Default How to get out of it...?

    We'll never get out of it until we ship all the republicans to a different universe and let them start to screw that up.
    Seriously, they gotta go!

  7. #332

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Make all the Republicans go? I'm not for that (and I'm mighty far to the Left as is - I'm deeply disappointed in the Democrats, for that matter).

    Those of us with liberal leanings need the balance of a conservative element in our country; the worst thing we could do is to fall into the same trap - thinking that our way is the only correct way to go, and manipulating the system to leave out the viewpoints of half the nation's populace. We lefties will royally screw things up with that kind of perspective.

    But it is time to return the GOP to status as the official opposition party of the American government (no, wait - that's how the Canadian Parliament works, isn't it?)

  8. #333

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Well, I'm about as much a liberal (a lot) as I am a conservative (a lot), so I guess that puts me in the middle. My Momma raised me correctly and I know right from wrong. The righties have been wrong on virtually every thing for my entire life. While the Dems have certainly shown they are far from perfect, at least until Clintons term, they showed some spine and straight thinking, and were the only firewall against republican unAmericanism. Now, they aren't worth anything, and are as much to blame for the problems at hand. Even tho they didn't instigate them, they cave on every issue and let these jerks get away with murder, when they could shut down the political part of the union at get this dealt with. That'd be better than watching the ship sink with the rest of us still aboard.

  9. #334
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    Question Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    While the Dems have certainly shown they are far from perfect, at least until Clintons term, they showed some spine and straight thinking, and were the only firewall against republican unAmericanism.
    So let me get this straight. You’re saying Clinton was perfect and Republicans are “un-American”?

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  10. #335

    Default Where did I ever say Clinton/Dems were perfect? Far from it.

    Can't stand Bill. He didn't do anything as Pres., but set it up for republicans to have a field day spouting how fine and pure they were and how vile everyone else were that didn't tow that BS line.

    Yes, I see republicans as the worst thing to ever hit this country, and thus the world.
    UnAmerican is but one term that fits that bill, and the sooner we no longer have them corupting our system the sooner we can start repairing the huge amount of damage they've done. But, it's probably too late.
    The last Pres. election was the tipping point, and we know where that went.
    Now it's a steep slippery slope, and we're on a sled with greased rails, with big rocks and trees dead ahead.

  11. #336

    Default Re: Where did I ever say Clinton/Dems were perfect? Far from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Yes, I see republicans as the worst thing to ever hit this country, and thus the world.
    Wow - topping folks like Robert Mugabe, Kim Il Jung, Pol Pot, etc.? You're a harsher critic than I, Ron.

  12. #337
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    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    I thought ol Clinton did a pretty good job. I'm for bombing other countries with cruise missiles, NAFTA, and large closets.

    I'm afraid RW may be hitting the Kool-Aid a little too hard lately. It's hard to say you understand right from wrong, and villify efforts to foster democracy, all in the same breath. You, sir, perhaps are experiencing Cognitive Dissonance.

    And in the big picture of bad guys, the Village Idiot is nearly harmless by comparison.
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  13. #338

    Default Re: Where did I ever say Clinton/Dems were perfect? Far from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Yes, I see republicans as the worst thing to ever hit this country, and thus the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Wow - topping folks like Robert Mugabe, Kim Il Jung, Pol Pot, etc.? You're a harsher critic than I, Ron.
    Oh, you just wait, Leo. A hundred years from now, history textbooks will have pictures of Dick Cheney and Sean Hannity in the same section as accounts of the Holocaust, AIDS epidemic, and global warming. The chapter will be called "Scourges of the Earth."
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  14. #339

    Default You bet!

    When you consider the fact that the US has long been looked upon by the world as the best and most important country on the planet because of how 'good' we are with our laws and constitution and inginuity, etc., and then we have W come along and almost instantly turn that opinion on it's head, with the majority of world inhabitants now viewing the current US as no better than anyone else and often worse, or the worst, then of course we have a serious problem that rivals the most horrible in history.
    Remember, this is the year 2008, not the middle ages or even early 1900s when the world was a much different place. We have everything at hand to do incredible amounts of bettering our own situations big time and doing everything possible to help those outside of America with whatever problems they have. Instead we sit by while Darfur, Mugabe, etc. do as they please and world starvation and the like is at an incredible rate. And that's just the tip of the digusting iceburg.
    So yes, Bush fiddlles and decieves Americans while we and the world burns. That puts him and his gang as the worst. All this crap wouldn't be happening with somebody better in charge.
    Bush had the intire country's and world's population in his favor after 9-11, the world was in the palm of his hand, to do what no other has had the opportunity to do, and he made a fist. A very feeble fist, but one that has had and will continue to have terrible repercussions thruout the planet.
    And his republican gang has backed him every step of the way and thwarted all attempts from others to correct matters all down the line.

    I've been fortunate to have lived a great life in post WW2 America, but it coulda/woulda/shoulda been even better but for the republicans stepping in the way of what's right and positive, and instead doing whatever they could to do the wrong thing. 50+ years of my paying attention to whats happening in this country has shown republicans to be what they truly are. Millions of my fellow Americans see the same thing, millions of others somehow don't, and I have to question what they have been paying attention to. The rest of the world clearly see's today's America as a sick joke, and today's Americans as absurdly stupid for allowing things to disintegrate to the current level, and voting Bush in for a 2nd term was the nail in the coffin, America's coffin.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 27th, 2008 at 06:59 AM.

  15. #340

    Default Re: Where did I ever say Clinton/Dems were perfect? Far from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    When you consider the fact that the US has long been looked upon by the world as the best and most important country on the planet because of how 'good' we are,
    Has it really? Or is that just what we were taught in school, told by our leaders, reading and hearing in the media? I'm not convinced that had such a strong foundation in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    Oh, you just wait, Leo. A hundred years from now, history textbooks will have pictures of Dick Cheney and Sean Hannity in the same section as accounts of the Holocaust, AIDS epidemic, and global warming. The chapter will be called "Scourges of the Earth."
    Let's hope that, in the next hundred years, we can make enough changes that those gentlemen will be little more than a footnote in those textbooks, a temporary blip on history's radar, referenced as being part of the brief "What The F*** Were We Thinking?" Era.

  16. #341

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    I wasn't taught that in school. It comes from us being the first to set foot on the moon, our outlook towards bettering ourselves and doing what we could for those less fortunate.
    Have we made missteps along that path over the years, of course, and you know who I'm gonna blame for the most part, but overall, we have been the beacon of hope for the world, and now they find out it's just an oncoming out of control frieght train that's gonna run them down.

    Now we ignore the bad and contribute to it with fake wars, secreting masses of people, many totally innocent to unknown places to face horrible fates, our rights being trampled and having their way in subverting justice in huge ways, and making sure we'll not be able to find out the depths to their dasterdly actions.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 27th, 2008 at 07:08 AM.

  17. #342

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    It comes from us being the first to set foot on the moon, our outlook towards bettering ourselves and doing what we could for those less fortunate.
    From the perspective of other world peoples, we have long been looked at as a patronizing, colonial bully, and a dangerous neighbor. The U.S. is seen as using its military and technological might to take over and control whatever we want (the moon included - we did it not for the improvement of mankind, but just to beat the Soviets to it), and to impose our will, our way, our brand of capitalist democracy upon other nations. And that didn't just develop since Reagan's days.

    Ron, you and I see eye-to-eye in many political areas (based on what I read in your postings), but I fear that you are blinded into thinking that all the blame and fault can be so easily placed on one particular subset of Americans - namely, the Republicans and conservatives. That's too easy a path.

    Sure, I agree that the neo-cons of the past two decades have taken our government in directions with which I heartily disagree - but we all play a part in that. Why did the neo-cons develop into such a successful movement? How have they gained so much power and influenced so many people? They have appealed (sometimes through what I would consider improperly manipulative means) to a large number of our neighbors and fellow Americans, people who felt that more liberal leaders were shutting out their desires and values.

    But don't assume that the rest of the world's population has been overly infatuated with America until just recently. American culture and imagery has overwhelmed the globe, so it's the "American Brand" that people see and desire - but it's not the same as the "American Reality."

  18. #343
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    Lightbulb Re: You bet!

    Ron, I hope that instead of trying to write more dismissive, thoughtless banter, that you really pay attention to what Tim and Leo (two HTers often diametrically opposed in political philosophy) are trying to tell you here, and consider its value.

    A lot of people in the world wear their heart on their sleeve. I myself have been known to do that from time to time. Your problem is this is your daily uniform, at least on HT, and it completely stains any message you have with a biased discoloration that destroys your credibility — something you need in order for anyone to take you seriously.

    Consider your emotional sway from one extreme to the other:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    All this crap wouldn't be happening with somebody better in charge.
    and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    I see republicans as the worst thing to ever hit this country, and thus the world.
    The reality is Ron, that most Democratic politicians are just as good, or bad, as Republican politicians on any given day. What is true, as I have said before, is that neocons have hijacked the Republican party, and THEY are the ones who we must get rid of. A lot of these individuals aren’t elected.

    Which leads to my next point: Once you have truly realized the fallacy of quick-trigger fingerpointing, I think you will find that there is an even larger more sinister entity that transcends our two-party system that bears the brunt of the blame for the unfortunate direction our country has taken.

    You can start learning about it, once you are ready, by googling three little letters: CFR.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  19. #344

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    OK, let's start in the sixties when life in America was pretty darn good for the most part, with notable and sizeable exceptions like the MLK and Kennedy killings, the Viet Nam conflict, Kent State, racial explosions, and Nixon. Anybody disagree with that?

    We move into the seventies and the Nixon thing is going nuts with him being extreme with power and filthy agendas, then Watergate, and Viet Nam start coming to a head. Life is still good, but America is getting really pissed off at the misuse of political powers, mainly by republicans, but even lots of them were decent people hoping to resolve problems in tandem with Dems. Then we get the Nixon pardon, expected of republican Ford but infuriating non-the-less. Along comes Carter and the gas crisis and the Iran hostages. America has lost it's smiley face and is on cruise control, just trying to live the American dream.

    1980, the year it all starts to go rotten. Reagan is elected and the hostages are freed instantly. America say's WTF!, and no, Iran wasn't afraid of Ronnie. The conflict in South America heats up and the CIA is running coke while Nancy tells us to "just say no", John Lennon is murdered, and America is starting to get very aggitated at what many see as their country going down very wrong paths and beginning to split in their politics. H.W. Bush is elected and the divide widens, with republicans having a field day as things really get dirty with republican agendas such as the continuing Contra/Noriega/Ollie North BS souring people in a big way and Dems in Wash. DC getting frustrated and rancorous. The political divide widens, with most republican politicians no longer willing to be bi-partisan, at all.

    1990, we have the first Iraq 'war', and 2 years later HW is out, Clinton in. This is where the republicans flip out and say thats it, to hell with the good of America, we will stymie everything possible against Dem. attempts and never give ground in order to disrupt everything if we can't get our way all the time. And they start devising fithy tactics and begin subverting whatever Dems try to do. Bill hooks up with Monica and it's the happiest day for republicans in years as they all point their hypocritcal fingers at the blue dress and it's stain, and ol' Bill keeps digging his hole deeper. Newt (what a perfect name for him) and company come up with their scorched America policies to do 'whatever' it takes to regain political control and never relinquish it by any means. They impeach Clinton and that's it, Dems are mad at Bill but enraged at republicans. The split is to Grand Canyon porportions now.

    2000, Florida's antics and the Supreme Court give the election to boy George who along with his cadre of Reagan crooks have their plans waiting for the moment they can set the hooks. 9-11 hits and on 9-12 Bush becomes the biggest loser in world history. The world sees thru him as does half of America, but the news is all about 9-11 and various theories with grandstanding by Bush and scaring the crap out of gullible 'patriots'. The republicans are going for blood and Dems can't do anything in any way of defense of the country but toss them razor blades and bare their thoats. Bush and Cheney have the road paved for them to run roughshod over the constitution and pre Afghanistan/Iraq actions thanx in large part to the US media who have suddely gone AWOL/MIA and FOX news/Rush start a full court press against all who aren't on board. That's when the first kool aid is passed out and it's voting republicans who are guzzling as the rest of America and the world stares in disbelief. Afghanistan is suddenly on the back burner and the focus shifts to invading Irag and WMDs. By then it's anything goes for Bush as he have the green light to do anything they want and knows he will get away with it all if he can just get re-elected. He does, and now it's just run out the clock time as he get's ready scurry his rat ass off to Crawford while the many investigations start showing what scum these guy's are, but still are getting away with it all, and what little is falling on them is shrugged off.

    Not done, wait.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 27th, 2008 at 03:04 PM.

  20. #345
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    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    My favorite Movie is Independence Day (1996).

    Forget the Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Black, White, Yellow....we are Human Beings!



    President Thomas Whitmore: Good morning. In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. "Mankind." That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom... Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution... but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: "We will not go quietly into the night!" We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!

    Love and ALOHA,

    Auntie Lynn
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

  21. #346

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Calgone, take me awayyyy!

  22. #347
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    Talking Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Calgone, take me awayyyy!
    The very image of Ron Whitfield in a bath full of flower petals disturbs me as much as seeing Saddam Hussein in his tighty-whitey.

  23. #348

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Random View Post
    The very image of Ron Whitfield in a bath full of flower petals
    Ron, do not - repeat, do NOT take your steel guitar into the tub with you!

  24. #349

    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Let's all be glad I can't post pictures!

    Speaking of steel guitar, there will be good music at the Marriott Waikiki tonight at 6pm/3rd Fl., as there always is with Martin Pahinui, George Kuo, Aaron Mahi, and Bobby Ingano on steel. Probably the best Hawaiian music to be found in Waikiki.

  25. #350
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    Default Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Hey Ron, the minute TuNnL is passing out compliments to me and Leo simultaneously, it's a "heads-up" moment. I can see the four of us and a few others swilling luke warm beer and telling stories, or arguing, as fast as we can, down by the beach. That's why this board is just about the best ever.
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