Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

[aloha-anon]

Re: HERO disbanding?

oh yes. I really feel for a pilot who works less than I do, makes 200K per year all because he belongs to a union that artificially boosts the cost of flying.

I'm for unions where workers who are unskilled may be unfairly exploited but come on... pilots? Jeez. Market forces should determine their comp.

Sheesh.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/s...18/story3.html

yeah. that is over 200K per year. I feel real sorry for Aloha and Hawaiian.

http://www.mesa-air.com/pilots.asp

That is 40K per year. I really really feel bad for Aloha and Hawaiian that Go! is trying to force them to lower their cost structure - namely the labor cost.

If there are any Aloha or Hawaiian pilots out there that would like to correct me, I'd be happy to eat crow if any of this information is inaccurate.

All inaccurate. Standby for a few... BRB

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...lcc/aloha.html

Hawaiian
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli.../hawaiian.html

Mesa
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...-lcc/mesa.html

You can input the pay scales according to seniority and see for yourself there is NOBODY MAKING $200K a year. Not flying airplanes in Hawaii!!!!!

caw!! caw!!! caw!! Hope you're hungry!

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...lcc/aloha.html

Hawaiian
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli.../hawaiian.html

Mesa
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...-lcc/mesa.html

You can input the pay scales according to seniority and see for yourself there is NOBODY MAKING $200K a year. Not flying airplanes in Hawaii!!!!!

caw!! caw!!! caw!! Hope you're hungry!

Hmmm. This data is very interesting. Let's say I was a first year captain at Hawaiian on a 717 (smaller jet). I make $146 per hour with a guaranteed 75 hours a month?

$146 * 75 = $10,950 per month minimum or $131,400 annually at a minimum.

That is working part time! 75 hours a month is less than 20 hours per week. You're right, I'd much rather make $130K a year part time. That is even better than 200K per year full time.

Is my math off?

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

caw!! caw!!! caw!! Hope you're hungry!

You're not a pilot are you Aloha-anon?

I have nothing against the baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ticket folks or back office folks. You know who is screwing your company?

The pilots.

The greedy pilots who really should not have a union representing them. The kind of comp they earn is outrageous for the job they do. Well maybe the unions at airlines exacerbate the problem but your comp really is closer to market then those of the pilots.

[arturo_h]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Although they aren't getting paid $200K a year, HA and AQ pilots are getting substantially more than Mesa:

12 year seniority, HA, 712: $150
12 year seniority, AQ, 732: $120
12 year seniority, YV, CRJ/ERJ145 (no CRJ200 listed): $72

-Arturo

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

real quick, lets also do the math on the high end.

Hawaiian captain on a 767 with 12 years tenure = $167 per hour.

$167 * 75 hours = $12,525 per month or $150,300 annually for less than 20 hours per week.

Not too shabby.

That doesn't even go into the pension or retirement benefits. Care to share that info so we can crunch numbers Aloha-anon?

I bet you won't look at the pilots the same way tomorrow at work. Hey not mocking you buddy, you've just been hoodwinked for years by your own company.

[arturo_h]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

You're not a pilot are you Aloha-anon?

I have nothing against the baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ticket folks or back office folks. You know who is screwing your company?

The pilots.

The greedy pilots who really should not have a union representing them. The kind of comp they earn is outrageous for the job they do. Well maybe the unions at airlines exacerbate the problem but your comp really is closer to market then those of the pilots.

Although I agree with you on most points, I must say, being a pilot is just like any technical field out there and I think they should be compensated based on similar technical fields. My brother, who is a pilot, has told me some of the requirements of becoming an airline pilot. A pilot usually needs a four-year degree, they need to have many, many hours of training, they need to keep their health in check, and so-on. No offense to the other airline workers, but I don't think for one minute they should be compared to baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ticket folks, or back office folks. I have to argue that pilots have to work much harder in becoming a pilot and while being a pilot than other technical fields out there that get similar compensation.

-Arturo

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Although I agree with you on most points, I must say, being a pilot is just like any technical field out there and I think they should be compensated based on similar technical fields. My brother, who is a pilot, has told me some of the requirements of becoming an airline pilot. A pilot usually needs a four-year degree, they need to have many, many hours of training, they need to keep their health in check, and so-on. No offense to the other airline workers, but I don't think for one minute they should be compared to baggage handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ticket folks, or back office folks. I have to argue that pilots have to work much harder in becoming a pilot and while being a pilot than other technical fields out there that get similar compensation.

-Arturo

Arturo, I am not comparing a pilot to a mechanic. I am comparing a unionized airline mechanic's comp to a comparable mechanics pay rate. Union rate is higher of course but not obscenely so.

A unionized pilot's comp is nowhere close to what the market will pay a non-union pilot. It is the pilot's union I have a problem with. I am sure if you cut the pilot comp to 100K full time - a huge reduction - you'd still have folks clamoring for the opportunity.

Let the market dictate the pay for professional who don't need a union to protect their interests. In the case of pilots it is protecting their greed.

I'm not a pilot hater, just looking to bring to light what the real issue should be in this entire affair. Not Mesa's perceived greed, but the unionized pilots who have hurt all the major carriers as well. Can you imagine the comp at United, Delta and American before the concessions? The retirement was unreal!

[arturo_h]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Yeah, I understand now what you were referring to in your previous posts. I have to agree that pilot unions have got a little out-of-hand, but I think those unions had good intentions by just trying to protect pilot’s pay towards the beginning of when they came about. This brings up another point of why management of these airlines companies is not getting the brunt of the compensation cuts, and I think that’s one of the things that unions try to do. I also think that the market is so screwed for non-unionized pilots since airline companies are so afraid of increasing ticket prices.

-Arturo

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Let the market dictate the pay for professional who don't need a union to protect their interests.

You may not like what you get. Because "the market" is mostly interested in cheap travel. Yet the pilot is the key to survival when things don't go well. While I have no knowledge of what it's like at Aloha and Hawaiian, from what I see, the pay for pilots in the US in general is not going very well. Beginning pilots live on welfare. They can make more money working for UPS or FedEX. That's not going to attract the caliber of people you really want in the drivers seat of something that holds that many people.

Don't get me wrong. I have little love of unions. But from what I've been seeing, we're headed for a problem with a lack of good pilots. The cutbacks in airlines have forced some left seaters to move to the right on top of the across the board pay cuts have left some in bad shape.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

HEROS credibility is intact. Nobody believes the Mesa CEO. Notice no Anti-Defamation League inquirys or Jewish community outcry. Oh, maybe thats because HERO is led by two Jews! WTF!

This is just a schoolyard brawl between a bunch of Jewish kids all trying to spin the media their way. No Sopranos in Hawaii. Mesa is a billion dollar a year airline with a dedicated PR staff. HERO are just a bunch of local pilots who still have to fly their shifts and work like the rest of us. Amazing how easy it is for a few pilots i their spare time to upset the balance of spin and deceit from the Mesa media powerhouse.

Maybe HERO's credibility is intact to loyal HERO supporters but not to me, your average flying public. Just because no Anti-Defamation League or Jewish community outcry came about doesn't mean what HERO did was acceptable. HERO quickly nipped it in the bud with a public apology, that's why there's no outcry. But some of those statements like "JO, drown in your own kool-aid!" and "J.O. the Jew Borat" are really bad. Gives an outsider like me the impression that HERO's a hating group. The CEO of Aloha already mentioned he's gotten calls from the public saying they won't ever fly Aloha again.

For a group that's trying to help Aloha and Hawaiian, it's backfiring because it can't control it's negative emotions. I'm not clueless, I research and look into facts. Mesa/go! may put out marketing spins and I see right through it. I'm no fan of them but with the way HERO is carrying itself about, I'm less and less a fan of Hawaiian or Aloha either. The latest suggestion that the "sabotage" on the pilot's truck may be the work of Mesa/go! is clearly trying to portray Sopranos in Hawaii. Stop pointing fingers at the opposing party when you got no proof of who caused the truck incident. Maybe that's why I no longer see it on the dontflygo website. And I've yet to find anything on a news site about this accident and potentially who the suspects are. Anti-Mesa blogsites don't count.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

real quick, lets also do the math on the high end.

Hawaiian captain on a 767 with 12 years tenure = $167 per hour.

$167 * 75 hours = $12,525 per month or $150,300 annually for less than 20 hours per week.

Not too shabby.

That doesn't even go into the pension or retirement benefits. Care to share that info so we can crunch numbers Aloha-anon?

I bet you won't look at the pilots the same way tomorrow at work. Hey not mocking you buddy, you've just been hoodwinked for years by your own company.

Right on, some of these people are just way too greedy. I understand unions can be a good thing for groups of workers that do get shafted, like janitors, flight attendants, ground crew but pilots? An entry level pilot may get shafted and maybe the unions can work on improving that but I really feel no sympathy for pilots making over $100k a year plus benefits like a pension. The crys of I need to make a living doesn't cut it considering there are so many others out there making ends meet with much less than six figures. If you're making over $100k and still can't make ends meet, you need to re-evaluate what you are doing with all that money. And pensions need to be traded in for 401k's, pensions are a thing of the past, geez......

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Hmmm. This data is very interesting. Let's say I was a first year captain at Hawaiian on a 717 (smaller jet). I make $146 per hour with a guaranteed 75 hours a month?

$146 * 75 = $10,950 per month minimum or $131,400 annually at a minimum.

That is working part time! 75 hours a month is less than 20 hours per week. You're right, I'd much rather make $130K a year part time. That is even better than 200K per year full time.

Is my math off?

You are wrong again. Those hourly rates are only when the aircraft is moving under its own power. Add up the hours and days spent away from home and its often a 60 hour work week for 20 hours of pay.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Yeah, I understand now what you were referring to in your previous posts. I have to agree that pilot unions have got a little out-of-hand, but I think those unions had good intentions by just trying to protect pilot’s pay towards the beginning of when they came about. This brings up another point of why management of these airlines companies is not getting the brunt of the compensation cuts, and I think that’s one of the things that unions try to do. I also think that the market is so screwed for non-unionized pilots since airline companies are so afraid of increasing ticket prices.

-Arturo

The pilots unions were formed to increase safety first. If it wasn't for the pilots unions, many mandatory safety features would never have been implemented into modern aircraft. All modern anti-collision terrain avoidance fire and navigation systems have been demanded for by the unions.

When you feel safe flying in a US registered "N" numbered aircraft, thank the pilots unions.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

The CEO of Aloha already mentioned he's gotten calls from the public saying they won't ever fly Aloha again.

He got two phone calls, they probably came from mesa