Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Thanks to Mel for answering. Still waiting...

My answers are no and no only because I thought this was a great concept from the start and believe the company took all the right steps.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

My answers are no and no only because I thought this was a great concept from the start and believe the company took all the right steps.

Thanks, JT. My own answers are 1) yes and 2) no. I've talked to a very senior SF person several times, but haven't gone to any public meetings, for the same reason as yourself.

Still no answer here from... well, you know who.

[waioli kai]

proximity to HS, Inc. propagandists ,, Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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=== 1) Have you ever had a lengthy personal discussion with any SuperFerry official(s)? and 2) Have you ever attended a public meeting in which the SuperFerry officials participated? ===

What does it matter?? You want to imply that a person cannot have a well founded opposition to HS, Inc. unless he or she has at some point had his or her lungs in close enough proximity to a HS, Inc. salesperson/propagandist/investor to be exchanging the same air and that then somehow the presumed "great benefit" of HS, Inc.'s ferry(ies) would be realized by a HS, Inc. opponent?

[LikaNui]

Re: proximity to HS, Inc. propagandists ,, Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

What does it matter??

Very amusing question! Thanks for the chuckle.
Obviously anyone whose IQ is higher than their age knows why the question(s) matter.

[waioli kai]

Re: Super loathing and humiliation --Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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--So if SF was a venture by local Hawaiian investors, you would embrace it? -- jtree

"Local investors"? "Hawaiian investors" ?? "Local Hawaiian investors" ??? Who would that be? Some mainland transplant who lived in Hawaii for awhile and calls himself 'Hawaiian', or are you thinking more the likes of Bank of Hawaii or First Hawaiian Bank because they have the word 'Hawaii' in them?

Who would be a "Hawaiian" who is not "local" ? Got an example of "non-local Hawaiian" ? There are precious few who are of Hawaii who could be called investors on a financial scale approaching HS, Inc.'s and of those few one can be sure that they would not be investing in an enterprise as are those of HS, Inc. whose militarist connections are very much linked to their interests in the islands of Hawai'i.

[joshuatree]

Re: Super loathing and humiliation --Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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--So if SF was a venture by local Hawaiian investors, you would embrace it? -- jtree

"Local investors"? "Hawaiian investors" ?? "Local Hawaiian investors" ??? Who would that be? Some mainland transplant who lived in Hawaii for awhile and calls himself 'Hawaiian', or are you thinking more the likes of Bank of Hawaii or First Hawaiian Bank because they have the word 'Hawaii' in them?

Who would be a "Hawaiian" who is not "local" ? Got an example of "non-local Hawaiian" ? There are precious few who are of Hawaii who could be called investors on a financial scale approaching HS, Inc.'s and of those few one can be sure that they would not be investing in an enterprise as are those of HS, Inc. whose militarist connections are very much linked to their interests in the islands of Hawai'i.

I'm talking about your example, the precious few who are of Hawaiian decent. So if you got a rich Hawaiian investing and creating a HSF equivalent, and they do not pursue any contract to transport military equipment between islands, how would you feel then?

[waioli kai]

Super folly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

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--I'm talking about your example, the precious few who are of Hawaiian decent. So if you got a rich Hawaiian investing and creating a HSF equivalent, and they do not pursue any contract to transport military equipment between islands, how would you feel then?-- jtree

Well you got that hypothetical leveled out, congratulations. However, I am opposed to HS, Inc. primarily because of what HS, Inc. is going to be transporting off of Oahu to other islands in terms of Hawaii residents... the human variety along with their toys and activities as well as HS, Inc. facilitating the transport of non-human species between all the islands. Also, a multi ton boat skimming the surface waters between the islands at 45 knots can only do harm to the surviving marine life of the Hawai'i, and who is in favor of that?

Little doubt but that HSF will make its runs for awhile. It will be somewhat entertaining to witness the hype and the folly to be followed by the hard reality that the enterprise is doomed, but, before it ceases to operate as it is being sold to function there is also little doubt but that a great deal of damage and ill will is to be generated prior to the ferrys' demise as a capitalUSt venture in Hawaii.

[joshuatree]

Re: Super folly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

Well you got that hypothetical leveled out, congratulations. However, I am opposed to HS, Inc. primarily because of what HS, Inc. is going to be transporting off of Oahu to other islands in terms of Hawaii residents... the human variety along with their toys and activities as well as HS, Inc. facilitating the transport of non-human species between all the islands. Also, a multi ton boat skimming the surface waters between the islands at 45 knots can only do harm to the surviving marine life of the Hawai'i, and who is in favor of that?

Little doubt but that HSF will make its runs for awhile. It will be somewhat entertaining to witness the hype and the folly to be followed by the hard reality that the enterprise is doomed, but, before it ceases to operate as it is being sold to function there is also little doubt but that a great deal of damage and ill will is to be generated prior to the ferrys' demise as a capitalUSt venture in Hawaii.

Your reasons for opposition, what is so different about HSF when it comes to moving human variety along with their toys and activities that the airlines and barges don't do? I really don't see any difference which is why I find this point of argument silly. No car being transported by barge has ever undergone invasive species inspection. As for people getting onto planes, have you ever had your shoes inspected for any invasive seeds lodged in the nooks and crannies? I haven't.

It will actually be 35 knots, still fast but no where the hyper inflated 45 you listed. And if you check out this NOAA link on recorded whale strikes, from the records with known vessel types, 14.2% of the whale strikes were attributed to whale watching vessels while ferries only account for 11.9%. Seems to me HSF poses no greater risk then what's already out there.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Left out the link.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/shi...e/lwssdata.pdf

[waioli kai]

Re: Super folly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

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-- ...what is so different about HSF when it comes to moving human variety along with their toys and activities that the airlines and barges don't do? -- jtree

One difference is the convenience of having one's 'toys' (motorcycles, ATVs, dirtbikes, lie-in-automobile, surf/water boards, limu/opihi gathering bags, coolers, whatevers, drugs, stolen property, illegal goods) debark at the same time as oneself.... convenience and minimal security checks are HSF selling points.

--I really don't see any difference which is why I find this point of argument silly.-- jtree

Almost without exception no one sees something one either is not looking for in the first place, or refuses to see until it strikes one between the eyes.

--No car being transported by barge has ever undergone invasive species inspection.-- jtree

Want to bet the average value per car to be shipped by ferry will be a much smaller fraction of the average car shipped by barge? Few will ride with their junker to Oahu via ferry, but many are expected to ride the ferry off of Oahu with their junker.

--As for people getting onto planes, have you ever had your shoes inspected for any invasive seeds lodged in the nooks and crannies? I haven't.--jtree

There's a significant amount difference of between the walking one does over relatively sterile ground prior to boarding a plane compared to boarding a ferry.

--It will actually be 35 knots, still fast but no where the hyper inflated 45 you listed.--

35 knots is the quoted service speed, 90%MCR 400tons.

--And if you check out this NOAA link on recorded whale strikes, from the records with known vessel types, 14.2% of the whale strikes were attributed to whale watching vessels while ferries only account for 11.9%. Seems to me HSF poses no greater risk then what's already out there.--

In a little while perhaps we'll have some whale strike stats that will relate to Hawaii waters with 800+ ton hydrofoil ferries striking marine life verses 2 ton whale watching vessels striking marine life.

You are apparently going to see your wish fullfilled by HS, Inc.'s operations in Hawaiian lands and waters. Yours and HS,Inc.'s glorifying sales pitches will cease as reality sets in because the facts will speak for themselves. You have not an icecube's chance in Hades of convincing me that HSF can be a good thing for nearly anyone who is not trying to escape Oahu.

[waioli kai]

Re: Super folly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

typo: (..... ,, ..., live-in-automobile, throw nets, fishing poles, crab traps, lanterns, stoves, change of address forms for foodstamps etc., ...., ..... )

[joshuatree]

Re: Super folly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

One difference is the convenience of having one's 'toys' (motorcycles, ATVs, dirtbikes, lie-in-automobile, surf/water boards, limu/opihi gathering bags, coolers, whatevers, drugs, stolen property, illegal goods) debark at the same time as oneself.... convenience and minimal security checks are HSF selling points.

Sure there's convenience but you seem to think that's all the convenience will bring, nothing but negatives. What about the ability for small business to directly transport their goods to other islands (before you go telling me about the required driver accompanying truck rule and the fact that all SF's routes go to Oahu, you have to realize the ferry system is just starting out)? What about school team outings that needed to transport their equipment? What about patients that need to seek medical care on Oahu but usually could bring very little of their belongings with them?


Almost without exception no one sees something one either is not looking for in the first place, or refuses to see until it strikes one between the eyes.

There are also times when people are so insistent on finding something between the lines when there simply isn't anything.


Want to bet the average value per car to be shipped by ferry will be a much smaller fraction of the average car shipped by barge? Few will ride with their junker to Oahu via ferry, but many are expected to ride the ferry off of Oahu with their junker.

Okay, not quite getting this statement. Are you saying people will only take their junkers vs their nice cars for the boat ride? At the end of the day, it's a road trip when one takes the SF, much like when one drives from LA to SF. People usually don't take their unreliable junkers for long road trips.

So what if more people from Oahu go to the other islands vs the other way around? You have to realize it's a closed system so eventually, the same people who left from Oahu will return back to Oahu. You run the numbers argument but Oahu does have the bulk of the state's population, so did anyone ever expected a different outcome? Wouldn't it be the same with the airlines right now? More people fly from Oahu to the other islands than vice versa?


There's a significant amount difference of between the walking one does over relatively sterile ground prior to boarding a plane compared to boarding a ferry.

There is no difference. Relatively sterile ground means the ground is still not sterile. A relatively clean looking street can still contain many invasive seeds which shoes pick up. So the danger is still there. If you are also insisting that the airlines shut down too, then I can at least see consistency in the argument.


35 knots is the quoted service speed, 90%MCR 400tons.

What is your interpretation of the term "service speed"? To me, it means cruising speed which they've listed at 35 knots. If you want to use your 90% arguement, that means the boat's top speed is still at 38.89 knots since 90% of that will be 35 knots. So dunno where 45 knots came from.


In a little while perhaps we'll have some whale strike stats that will relate to Hawaii waters with 800+ ton hydrofoil ferries striking marine life verses 2 ton whale watching vessels striking marine life.

Perhaps, but then again perhaps not. It's speculation at this point. What will you say when SF does hit a whale but the statistics point that the rate of whale strike is no more than the whale watching vessels? How do you point the finger at SF and say they are evil but not the whale watchers?


You are apparently going to see your wish fullfilled by HS, Inc.'s operations in Hawaiian lands and waters. Yours and HS,Inc.'s glorifying sales pitches will cease as reality sets in because the facts will speak for themselves. You have not an icecube's chance in Hades of convincing me that HSF can be a good thing for nearly anyone who is not trying to escape Oahu.

I'll only believe it when I see the boat actually depart on scheduled service. There's no glorification from me, just line by line comparison of a ferry to a barge or an airline and realizing the risks are the same but it presents another means of linking the islands together. I'm not here to convince you to my side, just wanted to hear more in detail about your stance while I'll share mine.

[waioli kai]

Responding to Superfolly hype --Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 4

Regarding your top speed 38.89 knots estimate.

38.89 knots X 1.151 mile/hour per 1 knot = 43.74 miles per hour

Obviously I was mistaken to have written 45 knots. The Naval Academy graduate that I never quite managed to be would never have made such a serious mistake, but, in the "living things in the water" context in which the hydrofoils' speed was first mentioned, just how serious a typo was it?

Whether plus or minus 10 mph .... just how much different in seriousness/impact/warning is it for any living thing to be struck by a 800 ton hydrofoil ship flying, sucking in/ejecting enough water to fly, at 43.74 mph? Got a link?

And just what is "service speed" when speed has everything to do with maintaining schedules? I sort of figured you had an inside track and could define it better than HS, Inc.'s web page of its vessels' stats.

--What will you say when SF does hit a whale but the statistics point that the rate of whale strike is no more than the whale watching vessels?--

I'd say someone should start questioning what degree of impact, what range of consequences on that which is impacted, constitutes "a strike", "a maiming", "a killing", "a trackable event", "an accountable event", ..., ...

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

HSF Letter

"The Superferry and the road to Hokulia have a lot in common: both promise the world even though they're really just dead ends."

My response :

Ms. Palma-Glennie's letter to the editor on April 3, 2007 warranted a response.She has deep concerns about Hokulia and Hawaii Super Ferry. It seems she is dismayed by the lack of government oversight of both projects. Yes Hokulia has had widely reported problems. But Judge Ibarra's 2003 ruling enjoining Hokulia from further development was simply wrong. Especially after 350 million dollars was already invested in the project.

As for her statement about Hokulia's private driveway to Keauhou shopping center, Hawaii County mandated Oceanside to build this road from Keauhou to Captain Cook as a condition of their re-zoning. The Malamahoa bypass is sorely needed. Ms.Palma-Glennie's comments will most undoubtly will be used by the Coupe family in the upcoming litigation to
show there is people in the community opposed to the completion of this road.

Lastly, in regards to the Hawaii Super Ferry, I share Ms.Palma-Glennie's concerns about this upcoming service. But after reading her letter to today, I saw the parallels between Hokulia and Hawaii Super Ferry service. There has been attempts to stall this service,just like in the Hokulia mess, after million had been invested in it. To me, both of these situations have left a black eye on investing money here in Hawaii.

Aaron Stene
Kailua-Kona

[waioli kai]

More Responding to Superfolly hype

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--So what if more people from Oahu go to the other islands vs the other way around?-- jtree

Where are these Oahu island-hoppers going to stay when they go off Qahu? With relatives? In timeshares? Vacation rentals? Hotels? And yet these would-be island-hoppers want to take their personal vehicle on the ferry to save money it would otherwise take to rent a vehicle? When time is money nothing could be more fun than for one (and one's children for some of us) to be paying to mingle for a few hours with hundreds of strangers eager to go below deck and rev up their engines to drive out of the belly of the beast, especially after a few rounds at the bar?