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Thread: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

  1. #76

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Oh, Miulang. [/shaking head sadly] How many times have you been asked to stop with the "guess"es and "maybe"s and "probably"s? And now "conjectures"?!!! Please! Do NOT take us for fools.
    Surely you know that Webster's defines conjecture as "inferring, theorizing, guesswork, or predicting from incomplete evidence". You have now convinced me to NOT watch Dr. Tepley's videos.

    Simply not feasible. Wave conditions (height, angle, direction, etc.) dictate speed, not some random number pulled out of thin air. Sometimes a boat can be doing 14 knots and pounding like hell, but increase it to 15 and it smooths out drastically.

    Again with the guesses and presumption, not based on any, you know, FACT.

    See how many times with the guesses? Four speculations in just one post. [/sigh]
    Tell you what. Why not suggest that SuperFerry pay a large fine (say, to a whale foundation for research, or something similar) for every time they strike a whale? Better yet, apply that to any commercial or private boat that hits a whale.
    One way or another, that solves the problem. And without any guesses or maybes or probablys or conjectures.
    Sure, why not fine ANY boat that strikes a whale? I'd be in favor of that. Only problem is confirming that a whale got injured/killed in the first place because on larger boats, you might not even feel a "bump" and if a whale isn't impaled on a pontoon, it might drift away or the carcass might drift to the bottom of the ocean and there goes the proof. And would you be pissed if you were told that a trip was going to take 2 hours and it ended up taking 4 hours (without your knowing it in advance)? I know I would be less than happy. I know I get irritated when my plane is delayed.

    When I say I "think", it's based on my own opinion formed on what I have learned from both sides. I wouldn't trust everything Superferry claims, either. You have your opinion and I have mine. Watch the Tepley videos and debate his explanations or not. I frankly don't care anymore.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 03:05 PM.

  2. #77
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Only problem is confirming that a whale got injured/killed in the first place because on larger boats, you might not even feel a "bump" and if a whale isn't impaled on a pontoon, it might drift away or the carcass might drift to the bottom of the ocean and there goes the proof.
    No. No, no NO.
    First of all, you're guessing that boats don't feel the "bump". And that guess is absolutely false!
    Secondly, if a carcass drifts away, it can be easily found, obviously. And a carcass will NOT sink. Just like a human body, gases expand in the organs and the carcass/body always drifts to the surface! I've seen too many dead animals and dead bodies in the ocean. I KNOW what happens. No "might" or "might not"s. No conjectures or guesses or maybes.
    And just how thin do you think a whale's skin is, anyway? There was a famous photo in the last year or so of a whale hit by a private boat here in Hawai`i. The propeller had left extremely deep gouges... and the whale was swimming along with no noticeable problem. Now, I hate like hell to see any animal hurt... but whales are not fragile. Ever see the battle scars on them from other predators, like sharks? Or from the whales battling each other?
    And as for travellers being slighlty delayed, well hell, if they're in that much of a damned hurry, they can take an airplane. Sheesh.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  3. #78

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    No. No, no NO.
    First of all, you're guessing that boats don't feel the "bump". And that guess is absolutely false!
    Secondly, if a carcass drifts away, it can be easily found, obviously. And a carcass will NOT sink. Just like a human body, gases expand in the organs and the carcass/body always drifts to the surface! I've seen too many dead animals and dead bodies in the ocean. I KNOW what happens. No "might" or "might not"s. No conjectures or guesses or maybes.
    And just how thin do you think a whale's skin is, anyway? There was a famous photo in the last year or so of a whale hit by a private boat here in Hawai`i. The propeller had left extremely deep gouges... and the whale was swimming along with no noticeable problem. Now, I hate like hell to see any animal hurt... but whales are not fragile. Ever see the battle scars on them from other predators, like sharks? Or from the whales battling each other?
    And as for travellers being slighlty delayed, well hell, if they're in that much of a damned hurry, they can take an airplane. Sheesh.
    They STILL haven't been able to find the carcass or sighted any whale that shows evidence of being struck by the Lanai ferry earlier this week (they did air searches too), and the eyewitnesses who were on that ferry who called in to report the strike said they definitely saw lots of blood and chunks of meat. So when will that carcass resurface? And if the whale is still alive, they've done air searches and haven't been able to locate it yet.

    As far as scheduling, all I'm saying is that Superferry, in its advertising material, might want to do what the airlines do, which is to post the arrival times that include a "fudge factor" in them. That's one of the reasons why HA arrives either "on time" or "early" and why they have consistently either been #1 or #2 in on time arrivals. I would post the longest possible transit times rather than the optimal transit times to reduce the likelihood that customers get upset because they don't get what they expect. I'm not sure about the amount of time they're figuring in for fully loading the boat, too. I mean, if inspections weren't going to be required, it might be feasible to load 285 cars in 20 minutes (the Seattle ferries do it all the time in about 15 minutes), but they'd have to make sure people got to the loading area well in advance in order to do the kind of inspections that are probably going to be required--you know like how they deny you boarding a flight if you're not at the gate by a certain time (if the antis get their way). Without having the required inspections, people could show up at the last minute and still get on board. And I am not necessarily against Superferry, I only want to make sure all questions have been answered satisfactorily with facts (Superferry doesn't include any of the scientific information to back their claims on their website). If they weren't trying to hide something, why wouldn't they include all of that information? That would sure shut lots of the antis up. The Superferry's lack of outreach to the communities it is supposed to serve continues to this day, which is why the Neighbor Island folks are so paranoid, and merely saying "no, really, trust us" ain't gonna cut it anymore. That's how the kanaka maoli lost Hawai'i.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 04:13 PM.

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Superferry, in its advertising material, might want to (...) I'm not sure about the amount of time they're figuring in (...) I mean, if inspections weren't going to be required, it might be feasible to (...) the kind of inspections that are probably going to be required (...) Without having the required inspections, people could show up at the last minute...
    [/banging head against the wall]

    That's how the kanaka maoli lost Hawai'i.
    [/splutter]
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    [/banging head against the wall]

    [/splutter]
    If you know any of the people at Superferry, please ask that they include some of their scientific documentation on their website, as a community service and to shut those of us who have questions up.

    8,000 moving targets and a population increase of about 7% a year:
    Based on the latest population studies, there is thought to be about 12,000 to 14,000 Humpback Whales in the North Pacific, with about 60% spending at least some of the winter months in Hawaii to mate, calve and nurse their young. The population is believed to be growing at a rate of 7% per year.

    The Great Whale Count began on Maui in 1988, and is conducted by teams of Pacific Whale Foundation staff and volunteers stationed at specific points along Maui’s shorelines. The counting is limited to animals sighted within three miles of the shoreline to ensure more accuracy and to allow the counters to best determine the whales’ pod composition and behaviors.
    From the Star Bulletin last month: a demonstration at the Pacific Whale Foundation over the lack of regulation within the NMS.

    Miulang

    P.S. In light of the very distinct possibility that the no EIS requirement gets hung up in the courts by the antis because of the Haraga debacle, what do you think this would do to the timing of the Superferry launch?
    Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 05:56 PM.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Some very interesting meeting minutes from the Humpback Whale National Maritime Sanctuary Advisory Committee from 2005 related to the Superferry.

    The March 17, 2005 meeting, at which there were 13 affirmative and 3 abstentions for the voting on the HSF agenda items (testimony was submitted from concerned individuals),

    and the May 12, 2005 meeting (under unfinished business), at which there were 15 affirmative and 2 abstentions for the voting on the HSF agenda items.

    On Jan. 20, 2005, Tim White, a member of the Sanctuary Advisory Council and Executive VP-Operations of Superferry, gave what appears to be the first presentation on HSF to the Advisory Council:

    Terry White, Commercial Shipping Representative and Hawaii Superferry Chief
    Operating Officer, showed a Hawaii Superferry informational video, and then
    gave a presentation on the plans for the ferry service. Some environmental
    considerations that the company is taking are that the ship has no wastewater discharge, is the most energy efficient model, has no ballast tanks or propellers, is quiet, and has a low underwater profile. The company is looking at preliminary work for radar detection of whales for the future and is considering tracking whales using theodolites from shore. Mr. White explained Hawaii Superferry’s whale avoidance strategy which includes: vessel design, approach policy (staying 500 yards away), routing (slower speeds and different routes during whale season), visual detection (two added lookouts, making a total of four, during whale season), shore-based theodolite use, technological detections (including radar, collision avoidance sonar, and night vision scopes), and avoidance procedures (course and speed changes). He explained that alternate routes might include going south of Penguin Bank and/or north of Molokai, and that the company is interested in the possibility of research and data collection.

    Rob Parsons, Environmental Advisory to Mayor Alan Arakawa (County of Maui),
    provided a presentation representing concerns raised by Maui County citizens
    about the Hawaii Superferry. He pointed out that Mayor Arakawa has not taken a stand on the ferry and that there are economic benefits, but there are also environmental concerns. Mr. Parsons reviewed the document that he submitted to the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) for the Hawaii Superferry hearing on Maui. At the hearing the public asked that the company submit a full Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), not just an Environmental Assessment (EA). PUC’s recommendation was that Hawaii Superferry should go through a comprehensive environmental review. Their decision is available on their website (http://www.hawaii.gov/budget/puc/). Maui County does require an EIS for Kahului Harbor improvements, however one is not required for the proposed ferry. Mr. Parsons said that he felt an EIS would help to mitigate some of the concerns. He invited Council members to inquire about the use of an Incidental Take Permit. June Harrigan-Lum reminded the Council that an EIS is not an enforceable document, but rather a disclosure document. Mr. White addressed some of the concerns including that fee schedules are subject to change and federal funds are not being used. Hawaii Superferry has not found a trigger for either a state or federal EIS requirements, however the company is working on a voluntary basis to look at environmental issues on their own. He said that the company is hoping to form advisory councils to address concerns and that they will continue to work with the Mayors office and Sanctuary Advisory Council. Bill Friedl suggested looking into a model simulator to test some of these routes and potential of whale interaction.
    So these are the things that went on behind the scenes to get the SAC to issue its seal of approval (the group of whale experts that Superferry refers to on its website). The fact that the SAC has TWO representatives from Hawai'i Superferry on the council seems a little bit like a conflict of interest: Tim White and Terry O'Halloran (the HSF Director of Business Development). I hope they recused themselves from voting when the discussion of the Superferry was held in March and May of 2005.

    And one of the examples brought up by several people, both at the SAC meetings and public hearings, is the decimation of the sperm whale population by high speed ferries in the Canary Islands. Here is one article (a PBS report) with evidence of what is occurring there.

    We now know that Superferry is not equipped with sonar, but does it even have radar? We know they promise to have spotters on board, but will they still have the theodolite devices onboard and on the shoreline when they finally start sailing between the islands?

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 11th, 2007 at 03:47 PM.

  7. #82
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Some very interesting meeting minutes from the Humpback Whale National Maritime Sanctuary Advisory Committee from 2005
    You lost me with your very first sentence there. That's TWO YEARS OLD. Ancient history.

    Never bothered to read the rest.
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    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    You lost me with your very first sentence there. That's TWO YEARS OLD. Ancient history.

    Never bothered to read the rest.
    It's the history of this whole thing that has created the problem, Lika! As much as Kamuelakea bugs the piss out of me sometimes, he's right in one way: that politics in Hawai'i is same old, same old. We'll just roll over and not try to make any waves.

    When Dr. Tepley provided copies of his video to the Council members, how many actually took the time to review it (I mean, gee, 27 minutes of boring testimony)? When Oahu legislators got copies of the video, how many said "oh yeah, we trust Garibaldi and we don't need to ask any questions."

    I'm just posting all of that so that some people later can't come back and say, "gee, we never knew why things happened the way they did!" Why didn't Superferry put their environmental commitments on their website for all to see? That surely would have stopped some of the questions that are floating around now.

    It'll be interesting to see what the Maui News and the Garden Isle News report sometime this week about the public hearings that were held on both islands this weekend. I know for sure there was lots of noise on Maui.

    Miulang

    P.S. Here is the status of HB702 (requirement for Superferry EIS) as of this evening. Rep. Joe Souki from Maui is the Chair of the House Transportation Subcommittee.
    Last edited by Miulang; February 11th, 2007 at 05:10 PM.

  9. #84

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Remember, JT, that SuperFerry has already planned on doing that very thing.
    Actually, you're right, on a PDF attachement on their website, it does say they will only traverse the whale habitat area off southwest Maui during whale season only if harsh sea conditions deter them from going north of Molokai. With that being said, I really don't see what is there more to condemn HSF on regarding whales. I would observe and watch operations to see if anything else can be done then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    As a former and soon-to-be again resident of Maui, my main concern is NOT about Superferry and its impacts. I'm more worried about managing the growth of Kahului Harbor to ensure that essential goods for residents will continue to arrive without disruption. If it means condemning the 2 hotels that sit right on Kahului Harbor, tearing them down to have more space on the harborside for YB, so be it. Some choices do have to be made, and not everybody's going to be happy. But the ultimate bottom line should be that decisions made about Neighbor Island ports and their usage should be up to the individual counties and NOT up to Superferry or anybody on Oahu, which is why I'm glad they're holding hearings on Kauai and Maui this weekend so Oahu legislators can hear the concerns of the Neighbor Island folks.
    Actually, this problem is a lot easier than it looks. Once again, the key is the canoe club. I know, you will quote squatter's rights to me, but I think it's just ludricris to say a canoe club has the right to be in Kahului Harbor considering the development of that harbor was for commercial activity. It's like me demanding I have canoe rights next to the Matson container docks at Sand Island. Here's the simple solution. Remove canoe club. That area freed up can be used by HSF. Building a simple dock is all that is needed. I doubt you need to dredge because HSF's are shallow draft, they only take about 10 feet. Then the existing facilities for YB, cruises, and others can be left as is or improved. Build a secondary break water running parallel to Kahului Beach Rd. Canoe club can relocate there and never have to butt heads with commercial activity again. The hotels do not need to be destroyed. Infact, they may get even more business since the HSF will then dock at their doorsteps. Hotel makes a little concession space for a car rental and it will really making things convenient.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    I'm not sure about the amount of time they're figuring in for fully loading the boat, too. I mean, if inspections weren't going to be required, it might be feasible to load 285 cars in 20 minutes (the Seattle ferries do it all the time in about 15 minutes), but they'd have to make sure people got to the loading area well in advance in order to do the kind of inspections that are probably going to be required
    HSF's site has videos showing a similar boat doing loading/unloading. Basically all of this will be done in a one hour turn-around time. This is very doable and well paced because all the inspections and check-ins are done before hand. They say their terminals will open 2 hours before departure to take care of the inspections/check-ins first. So it will operate like an airport check-in.

  10. #85

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post

    Actually, this problem is a lot easier than it looks. Once again, the key is the canoe club. I know, you will quote squatter's rights to me, but I think it's just ludricris to say a canoe club has the right to be in Kahului Harbor considering the development of that harbor was for commercial activity.
    There are THREE canoe clubs that use that area for practice (two have their hales next door at Kanaha Beach Park), and one offers moonlight paddles during the full moon.

    The one canoe club that has the biggest clout in the State is the Hawaiian Canoe Club. They consistently win most of the canoe contests held statewide and they have backers who are very very powerful politically.

    And you know how it is in Hawai'i: it's not what you know, it's WHO you know

    It's not up to what the people of Honolulu want as far as the Neighbor Islands and HSF are concerned. They want to make sure that whatever decision is made, that it serves THEM first, not Honolulu. I seriously doubt any of the antis is saying absolutely no to HSF, they just want to make sure an environmental impact statement is done. Once that's done, and if it's shown that all potential risks have been identified along with their mitigations, I think you wouldn't hear another peep out of the antis. But it's this arrogance of HSF to say, if we don't get want we want, then we're going to pull out and then having the State run after them like a parent trying to calm a child having a tantrum that disturbs a lot of people. What's the problem with waiting another 6 months or however long it takes to get an EIS? Surely the pro-HSF people want to be able to give the antis and the on the fence people enough scientific reassurance that nothing adverse will happen to the Neighbor Islands? Somehow, I think many Valley Islanders may have been psychically born in Missouri (the "Show Me" state). If HSF has nothing to hide, why wouldn't they want to have an EIS done? Just because it hasn't been required of YB and NCL doesn't mean that HSF shouldn't have to have one done, especially for Kahului Harbor. If you read the notes from the Jan. 20 2005 meeting of the sAC, it clearly states that Maui County was requiring an EIS from Superferry but the State said it didn't require one, which is interesting because the PUC said an EIS should be done and the DOT didn't. And as you recall due to recent events, all decisions handed down by the DOT during the period spanning mid-2005 up to Dec. of last year are under scrutiny now because of the Haraga debacle.

    If I was a business person and I was starting a company that required goodwill from the customers I served, I sure wouldn't go around antagonizing them by stonewalling.

    Come on. The State's already coughed up $40 million to help a PRIVATE, for profit company establish a business here. It's about time the State showed some balls and stood up for the rights of its voters on the Neighbor Islands, too.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 12th, 2007 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #86

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    There are THREE canoe clubs that use that area for practice (two have their hales next door at Kanaha Beach Park), and one offers moonlight paddles during the full moon.

    The one canoe club that has the biggest clout in the State is the Hawaiian Canoe Club. They consistently win most of the canoe contests held statewide and they have backers who are very very powerful politically.

    And you know how it is in Hawai'i: it's not what you know, it's WHO you know
    So it's three canoe clubs. Still doesn't change the fact that a breakwater running parallel to Kahului Beach Rd will provide more than enough space to go paddling for all of them. Now I don't pretend to know geogrpahy of the area, just what I learned from conversations here and from studying a map via Google Earth. So if the hales are not close to the area I suggested, of course it means moving that too. But moving a canoe club is cheaper and more practical than having huge commercial ships and their infrastructure dance a ballet around the clubs. It makes no sense logistically, technically, and financially. The who you know stuff is typical Hawaiian politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    It's not up to what the people of Honolulu want as far as the Neighbor Islands and HSF are concerned. They want to make sure that whatever decision is made, that it serves THEM first, not Honolulu. I seriously doubt any of the antis is saying absolutely no to HSF, they just want to make sure an environmental impact statement is done. Once that's done, and if it's shown that all potential risks have been identified along with their mitigations, I think you wouldn't hear another peep out of the antis. But it's this arrogance of HSF to say, if we don't get want we want, then we're going to pull out and then having the State run after them like a parent trying to calm a child having a tantrum that disturbs a lot of people. What's the problem with waiting another 6 months or however long it takes to get an EIS? Surely the pro-HSF people want to be able to give the antis and the on the fence people enough scientific reassurance that nothing adverse will happen to the Neighbor Islands? Somehow, I think many Valley Islanders may have been psychically born in Missouri (the "Show Me" state). If HSF has nothing to hide, why wouldn't they want to have an EIS done? Just because it hasn't been required of YB and NCL doesn't mean that HSF shouldn't have to have one done, especially for Kahului Harbor. If you read the notes from the Jan. 20 2005 meeting of the sAC, it clearly states that Maui County was requiring an EIS from Superferry but the State said it didn't require one, which is interesting because the PUC said an EIS should be done and the DOT didn't. And as you recall due to recent events, all decisions handed down by the DOT during the period spanning mid-2005 up to Dec. of last year are under scrutiny now because of the Haraga debacle.
    Okay, I really gotta ask this. What does my suggested solution have anything to do with what the people of Honolulu want? Why are you mixing different issues together? You said your concern was how Kahului Harbor should grow and I listed a very practical solution. Has nothing to do with Honolulu or Oahu.

    And in your rant, you've answered your own questions. Maui county asked for EIS, state does not. HSF applied through state and got the green light. Why, as a business, should they waste more time on an EIS, which could drag out if during the EIS, there are more legal mumbo jumbo being tossed into it? Why can't they wait 6 months or more? Uh, cuz the ships were built with loans. Unless the banks are gonna give them an interest free loan 6 months or more out. Pertaining to Haraga, then set your hounds at Haraga, the DOT, and the State. If YB and NCL didn't have to do an EIS, HSF should not. It's called a standard and if you want any credibility, you better stick by the standard. If the standard sucks, fix it, but don't ding anyone who met the standards at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    If I was a business person and I was starting a company that required goodwill from the customers I served, I sure wouldn't go around antagonizing them by stonewalling.

    Come on. The State's already coughed up $40 million to help a PRIVATE, for profit company establish a business here. It's about time the State showed some balls and stood up for the rights of its voters on the Neighbor Islands, too.
    If you were a business person, you also realize time is money. They are not trying to antagonize customers but it's a waste of money and time to appease the few and I seriously doubt even if the EIS says "OK", they will be pleased. And people wonder why Forbes consistently ranks Hawaii at the bottom for business friendly climate.

  12. #87

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    So it's three canoe clubs. Still doesn't change the fact that a breakwater running parallel to Kahului Beach Rd will provide more than enough space to go paddling for all of them. Now I don't pretend to know geogrpahy of the area, just what I learned from conversations here and from studying a map via Google Earth. So if the hales are not close to the area I suggested, of course it means moving that too. But moving a canoe club is cheaper and more practical than having huge commercial ships and their infrastructure dance a ballet around the clubs. It makes no sense logistically, technically, and financially. The who you know stuff is typical Hawaiian politics.
    And that's the point. Because it's an intrinsic part of Hawai'i politics, it means you can't discount the political influence.

    Okay, I really gotta ask this. What does my suggested solution have anything to do with what the people of Honolulu want? Why are you mixing different issues together? You said your concern was how Kahului Harbor should grow and I listed a very practical solution. Has nothing to do with Honolulu or Oahu.
    Because of the way Hawai'i government has been run in the past, things have always been biased towards Oahu, and you know it. Now that the Neighbor Islands have the political strength (by virtue of being chairs of many of the most influential committees in the Legislature) I think the Oahu-centric domination of the Legislature is going to go away, and it's about time. You see the same illogical concern about the Neighbor Islands going on with the CON issue too. How can an administrator on Oahu, who knows virtually nothing about what the people of Maui need and want, determine that Maui can't support another hospital? The body that does govern Maui County (the Tri-Isle group) recommended that Malulani be granted permission to build their hospital. The legislators from the Neighbor Islands aren't country bumpkins anymore. They are just as politically savvy and aware of their responsibilities to their constituents as Oahu legislators are.

    And in your rant, you've answered your own questions. Maui county asked for EIS, state does not.
    .
    Ahhh, but the State Public Utilities Commission DID recommend that HSF do an EIS and it's a State Department too, isn't it? So who has jurisdiction, and over what part? Does DOT govern the port and the PUC govern the business of the ports? An EIS won't stop HSF from doing business. It's just an examination of the environmental considerations that need to be addressed.

    And what about home rule? Shouldn't the State take more into consideration what the individual Counties want and need for their own citizens?

    As far as having to extend their loan commitments for another six months, I'm sure Lehmann can afford it. They take risks all the time. In the world of project management, we would just call that a "cost overrun" and I'm sure HSF has some contingency money stashed away someplace just for that possibility, plus they have a liquidated damage clause in their current contract with the State that will award them money if the state delays the launch. If HB702 passes, though, and if the companion bill in the Senate also passes, HSF would have to pay to have the EIS done anyway.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 12th, 2007 at 12:29 PM.

  13. #88

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    You can call the people of Maui stupid or stubborn, but it's very clear that they want that EIS.

    Public misgivings about this summer’s scheduled launch of the Hawaii Superferry resurfaced Saturday during a joint Senate committee meeting while a bill to demand an environmental study of the interisland ferry appeared to pick up steam.

    With public testimony statewide on a bill to require an environmental impact statement for the ferry running 13-to-1 in favor, Maui state Sens. J. Kalani English and Shan Tsutsui predicted Senate Bill 1276 would advance out of the Senate Transportation and International Affairs and Energy and Environment committees en route to debate on the Senate floor.

    House Bill 702, the twin of the Senate bill heard Saturday at the Baldwin High School Multipurpose Room, is pending before the House Transportation Committee, which is chaired by Wailuku Rep. Joe Souki.

    Decision-making for the joint Senate committees on Senate Bill 1276 is scheduled for 1:30 p.m. Wednesday in Room 224 at the State Capitol in Honolulu. If recommended for approval by the committees, it would be referred to the Senate’s Ways and Means Committee, which is chaired by West Maui-South Maui Sen. Roz Baker. Tsutsui serves as vice chairman of that panel.

    English, chairman of the Transportation and International Affairs Committee, said testimony state-wide on the Senate bill was running at least 6,500 in favor and 500 opposed.
    Miulang

  14. #89

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    And that's the point. Because it's an intrinsic part of Hawai'i politics, it means you can't discount the political influence.


    Because of the way Hawai'i government has been run in the past, things have always been biased towards Oahu, and you know it. Now that the Neighbor Islands have the political strength (by virtue of being chairs of many of the most influential committees in the Legislature) I think the Oahu-centric domination of the Legislature is going to go away, and it's about time. You see the same illogical concern about the Neighbor Islands going on with the CON issue too. How can an administrator on Oahu, who knows virtually nothing about what the people of Maui need and want, determine that Maui can't support another hospital? The body that does govern Maui County (the Tri-Isle group) recommended that Malulani be granted permission to build their hospital. The legislators from the Neighbor Islands aren't country bumpkins anymore. They are just as politically savvy and aware of their responsibilities to their constituents as Oahu legislators are.


    Ahhh, but the State Public Utilities Commission DID recommend that HSF do an EIS and it's a State Department too, isn't it? So who has jurisdiction, and over what part? Does DOT govern the port and the PUC govern the business of the ports? An EIS won't stop HSF from doing business. It's just an examination of the environmental considerations that need to be addressed.

    And what about home rule? Shouldn't the State take more into consideration what the individual Counties want and need for their own citizens?

    As far as having to extend their loan commitments for another six months, I'm sure Lehmann can afford it. They take risks all the time. In the world of project management, we would just call that a "cost overrun" and I'm sure HSF has some contingency money stashed away someplace just for that possibility, plus they have a liquidated damage clause in their current contract with the State that will award them money if the state delays the launch. If HB702 passes, though, and if the companion bill in the Senate also passes, HSF would have to pay to have the EIS done anyway.

    Miulang

    So on one hand, you're looking forward to seeing the neighbor islands get more political power so the state senate and house won't be so Oahu dominated, less of the old way of political business. Yet, on the other hand, you remind me that the old way of politics in Hawaii is still gonna dominate. I'm getting the notion that the old way of politics in Hawaii is acceptable to you as long as the neighbor islands sit on top of that food chain?

    PUC recommended, not required. Not the same. Also, again, the real issue is that our procedures and protocols seem to be conflicting or inadequte between the state and counties. This is not HSF's fault so I still stand firm that people are taking it out on the wrong group. Since the antis are so caring about the whales, the environement, etc, why are they not asking NCL and YB to do EIS's too? Never too late for an EIS as you put it. An EIS would be more acceptable if you ask all of them to go through one and also to let HSF start as planned while the EIS is being conducted. Otherwise, what we have now is nothing more than sabotaging a business because the antis aren't even adhering to a standard, "HSF needs EIS but not NCL & YB."

    Isn't that a bit cavalier of you to assume Lehman can afford it? If you were starting up a business and your loans and finance were all contingent on a reasonable timeline, do you want someone to assume you can afford the extra interest and losses? If you think it's bad when home mortgage rates go up by a point, what do you think the interest will be on loans that are in the millions? As for state paying the delays, so you are okay that the state loses money on a business that is ready to go? Whether HSF makes or loses money then is not of the state's concern. Let's not forget, it's not just interest, you've got staff sitting idle, boats sitting idle. And the boats still need maintenance even if idle. Try leaving your car parked for 6 months and see if your car does not need maintenance. Refined gas turns bad after a period of time.

    Going on a tangent regarding hospital on Maui. Is it really an issue that people disregarded the need and want for another hospital on Maui. Or is it more of an assessment that the population on Maui cannot financially sustain another hospital on Maui? Tens of ERs have closed in Cali not because of lack of need and want but they were all in the red financially. So if the assessment was made based on $$$, is that really an Oahu point of view or just a cold, harsh business decision?

  15. #90

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    So on one hand, you're looking forward to seeing the neighbor islands get more political power so the state senate and house won't be so Oahu dominated, less of the old way of political business. Yet, on the other hand, you remind me that the old way of politics in Hawaii is still gonna dominate. I'm getting the notion that the old way of politics in Hawaii is acceptable to you as long as the neighbor islands sit on top of that food chain?
    No, I don't like it, but if it helps bring parity to the Neighbor Islands who for so long have been looked upon by Honolulu as evil stepchildren, then so be it. But no, I don't condone it. Realistically, though, I seriously doubt this is going to change overnight (the specter of political influence). It would be nice if the members of the Legislature, in looking out for the needs of their own constituents (which is what they are supposed to be doing), also realize that everybody should get a share of the pie. Honolulu's dominance has been because it's the population and business center of Hawai'i. But now the Neighbor Islands are generating substantial money for the State through tourism, and their population bases are also increasing more rapidly than Oahu. So I think each island brings something to the table, and each should be recognized for this.

    PUC recommended, not required. Not the same. Also, again, the real issue is that our procedures and protocols seem to be conflicting or inadequte between the state and counties. This is not HSF's fault so I still stand firm that people are taking it out on the wrong group. Since the antis are so caring about the whales, the environement, etc, why are they not asking NCL and YB to do EIS's too?
    Why was the PUC even consulted if they have no say in the ultimate decision? I'm not saying that it's HSF's fault for the mess. But at some point, things DO have to change. On Maui, it could very well be that the County will require an EIS of YB and NCL IF changes are made to their current configurations. There's a Masterplan for Kahului Harbor for the year 2030 that is in the process of being drafted, and THAT's the reason why Maui County is being so insistent. When the Master plan was last reviewed and updated (I believe that was around 2000 or 2002), HSF was not even on the drawing boards. If YB has a change in its footprint (and it will) then yes, I think YB should also be required to go through an EIS. But I will tell you something else: only in very rare cases are companies retroactively required to comply with a rule that was made AFTER they initially got permission to operate. We already know what the environmental consequences of YB and NCL are because they currently operate in the harbor. HSF is an unknown quantity and all the people of Maui County have is HSF's promises. An EIS will not prevent HSF from sailing, but I don't want HSF to sail until they produce that EIS.

    Isn't that a bit cavalier of you to assume Lehman can afford it? If you were starting up a business and your loans and finance were all contingent on a reasonable timeline, do you want someone to assume you can afford the extra interest and losses?
    Not necessarily cavalier. See, Lehmann doesn't only have this investment. It's got its fingers in many more pots than HSF. One way to mitigate the issues you bring up is to not accept delivery of the first boat until that EIS is produced, so the maintenance would be deferred. Lehman already has $40 million from the State. That down payment should help ease their pain. And if the Legislature passes the bills to require an EIS for HSF and HSF balks, then the State could walk away from the contract and eat the $40 million it's already given to HSF. That would be a shame, but sometimes you have to take it in the shorts and walk away. Seattle did that with its monorail project too. Walked away after spending many millions of dollars on planning the routes and buying up property. That left the taxpayers stuck with a bill for something we'll never see, but the taxpayers also were the ones who voted to kill the project, knowing that what they were originally told it would cost to build the monorail had ballooned to a sum more than 3 times the original estimate.

    One other option might be that HSF accepts delivery and leases the boat to the Navy to ferry personnel and equipment between Honolulu and Pohakuloa (this was going to be part of their strategy anyway).

    There's a very good possibility (based on what was reported by Sens. English and Tsutsui after last Saturday's hearing in Kahului), the odds are now stacked against HSF getting away with not having to do an EIS. Probably most, if not all, the Neighbor Island legislators are on board with having HSF do an EIS, and it could be that some of the Honolulu legislators also would rather err on the side of caution too. A key indicator will be the ease at which the SB1276 passes by the Transportation Committee hearing tomorrow. If it's a landslide and it goes on to be discussed by the Senate Ways and Means Committee (chaired by another Maui senator), I think the pro-HSF people will have some problems.

    According to Sen. English, testimony on HSF is running somewhere around 6,500 for an EIS to 500 against. Where are the advocates of HSF at the public hearings? There were none who rose to speak on behalf of Superferry on Maui, and there were 100 people in the audience. Consistently (at least on Maui) the only ones who have testified have been the people who want an EIS done. If the pro-HSF people expect to get sympathy they need to at least show up at the hearings to state their case. If you're too busy to show up, then you don't care enough about your cause.

    Going on a tangent regarding hospital on Maui. Is it really an issue that people disregarded the need and want for another hospital on Maui. Or is it more of an assessment that the population on Maui cannot financially sustain another hospital on Maui? Tens of ERs have closed in Cali not because of lack of need and want but they were all in the red financially. So if the assessment was made based on $$$, is that really an Oahu point of view or just a cold, harsh business decision?
    The Tri-Isle Commission (which is the group that makes recommendations to the Director) unanimously recommended that Malulani, a private hospital, be allowed to open. The people who live in the South End and West End most certainly can afford to support another hospital for their side of the island. The CON process was developed in the 1960's to ensure that multiple hospitals serving the same population didn't all buy the same expensive technologies (of course that is wasteful). Unfortunately, the CON process is broken (like the rest of the healthcare system). But the CON process was meant to be used by publicly funded entities only, so if a private hospital developer wants to come in and on his own dime put up another hospital, why should the State care? The reason they care is because they KNOW MMH is the cash cow of the entire statewide system and is basically subsidizing all the other public hospitals in the State. Does it worry them that Malulani or another brand new hospital will divert some of their patients away? You bet. And again, it's "politics" talking. Even Gov. Lingle has stated publicly that Maui could support another hospital (and she should know after all: she was Mayor of Maui County for several terms). But she also said her hands were tied because she couldn't influence the Hospitals director. Dunno why he is autonomous, but he is, and apparently his ruling supercedes any recommendations that the LOCAL board might make (and the local board---the Tri-Isle Commission) is the one that works on a regular basis with the hospitals on Maui, Moloka'i and Lanai, not the State director.

    You don't live on Maui. You don't know how critically short of acute care beds MMH is most of the time. People who are healthy enough to be discharged invariably end up taking valuable bed space from patients who really need to be in the hospital. When there aren't enough beds, there is no other facility on Maui right now to which new patients can be redirected. So the only alternative is to leave them stacked up in the ER or shuttle them off-island to Honolulu, which is very very costly. If there was ever a bird flu pandemic or some major disaster, Maui does not have enough emergency facilities to take care of all the patients. Honolulu has the ability to redirect patients to other facilities if all the beds at one hospital are filled, but Maui especially does not currently have that option.

    Miulang

    P.S. I am a project manager by training and experience. When you undertake something like this multimillion dollar project, you better have a risk and change management strategy because NO project EVER runs perfectly. That's how I know Lehmann has some fudge factors built in to this project. And if they don't then they're kinda doomed to run over budget, no matter what. And one area of PMBOK that they definitely flunked was in not having a communication strategy with all the stakeholders in this project (the State and the voters).
    Last edited by Miulang; February 13th, 2007 at 01:51 PM.

  16. #91

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    I found this very interesting, very recent (Lika! ) story from an Alabama newspaper about Superferry.

    What I didn't know: that the $190 million contract to build 2 hulls was signed in 2004, almost 2 full years before HSF actually started communicating officially with the people on the Neighbor Islands. Isn't that kinda like buying a horse sight unseen, but not knowing if the horse can even walk? The time to talk to stakeholders is when you're in the process of design, NOT after you've already designed and committed to a contract.

    What I did know: that the first "advisory committees" on the Neighbor Islands for HSF did not meet until 2006.

    What I did know:
    A fast ferry venture in Rochester, N.Y., ended early last year when that city's mayor halted service of its Spirit of Ontario to stop what he called a "hemorrhaging of tax dollars" brought on by the ferry, which it had bought from a private owner that went bankrupt.

    That ferry -- built by Austal USA's parent company, Austal Ltd. of Perth, Australia -- was subsequently bought by a British company that said it would operate an England-France route.
    What I did know:
    Among those who believe in the Hawaii Superferry are Democratic Sen. Daniel K. Inouye, who helped secure about $25 million in federal loan guarantees for the vessels, and former U.S. Navy secretary John Lehman, who O'Halloran calls "our major investor."
    What I didn't know:
    Hawaii Superferry isn't Lehman's only tie to Mobile: his New York-based company, J.F. Lehman & Co., last summer purchased the Atlantic Marine Inc. shipyards in Mobile and Jacksonville, Fla., becoming in the process the second-largest property owner along the Mobile waterfront.
    What I did know: That all the Neighbor Islands don't have current space for an HSF terminal on their already crowded harbors, so current occupants are going to have to be moved to accommodate HSF terminals.

    What I didn't know: One of the main reasons why Honolulu hasn't been making the same stink about the coming of HSF is it already has a new ferry terminal built, it just isn't being used right now.

    From a PBN article in 2004 (don't read this part, Lika, because it's ancient history):
    Hawaii Superferry has said its business model is based on three key points:

    --Charge significantly less for the hours-long ferryboat ride than interisland airfares, whatever they are when service begins.
    --Charge a low enough rate to bring a car on the ferry that it is always cheaper than renting a car at the other end.
    --Seek defense business, hauling vehicles between islands at night for military exercises. The ferries are being built with specially reinforced vehicle decks especially for this, though the reinforcement also means that big rigs can be driven onto the ferries and it won't matter in which lane they park.
    From another recent SB story:
    Garibaldi said the venture is "well capitalized." It initially started with about $3.3 million in funding from a core group of investors, then more than $90 million was raised from other participants. That enabled Hawaii Superferry to receive a $140 million federal loan from the U.S. Maritime Administration.

    "We see the largest percentage of our revenue coming from passengers and their vehicles -- probably about two-thirds of that," Garibaldi said. "The other third would be commercial vehicles. It would be not moving only agriculture, but also any goods that have a need to move on a quick basis. It opens up markets for everyone in the state."
    BTW: the "moving agriculture part" will only occur IF the agricultural products shipped on HSF are accompanied by their drivers.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 13th, 2007 at 07:07 PM.

  17. #92

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Why was the PUC even consulted if they have no say in the ultimate decision?
    Typical gov't redtape and inefficient processes that contradict themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    But I will tell you something else: only in very rare cases are companies retroactively required to comply with a rule that was made AFTER they initially got permission to operate. We already know what the environmental consequences of YB and NCL are because they currently operate in the harbor. HSF is an unknown quantity and all the people of Maui County have is HSF's promises. An EIS will not prevent HSF from sailing, but I don't want HSF to sail until they produce that EIS.
    By your own statement, you've acknowledged that HSF should just be left to operate. They GOT permission to operate. Under existing state and federal rules, they aren't required to do an EIS before operation. Geez, we're just going in circles. Funny how the people of Maui weren't concerned about YB's or NCL's promises with an unknown quantity when they were first starting up service. So why were people of Maui ok with that? NCL has been cited in the past for improper waste dumping and their ships use ballast water. Why no concern there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Lehman already has $40 million from the State.
    Lehman did not get $40 mil from the state. The state spent $40 mil on improving harbor facilities (barges) to accomodate a ferry like the HSF. These barges belong to the state and supposedly if another ferry system or similiar type of ship called to port, they can use those barges too. And per SB, the $40 mil did not come from tax payers but from fees imposed on harbor users.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    One other option might be that HSF accepts delivery and leases the boat to the Navy to ferry personnel and equipment between Honolulu and Pohakuloa (this was going to be part of their strategy anyway).
    Aren't you against HSF on ferrying military hardware? Now you are suggesting they can do this while the EIS is in progress? And wouldn't that be ironic because the boat would be plying a route that people are against till an EIS? Or is it because it's Pohakuloa, and not Maui, so then it's acceptable?


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    P.S. I am a project manager by training and experience. When you undertake something like this multimillion dollar project, you better have a risk and change management strategy because NO project EVER runs perfectly. That's how I know Lehmann has some fudge factors built in to this project. And if they don't then they're kinda doomed to run over budget, no matter what. And one area of PMBOK that they definitely flunked was in not having a communication strategy with all the stakeholders in this project (the State and the voters).
    And I did a stint as program manager. I am aware of factoring in contingencies but you don't factor in having your project shut down by fundamentals you've already analyzed and moved past, in this case, the lack of need for an EIS as dictated by existing state and federal laws. What antis are doing right now is trying to change the rules of the game. Which is fine for future issues but to retroactively apply it to HSF is bull.

    Communication with stakeholders, did HSF really flunk when the stakeholders appear to be the state and HSF did apply with the state? Sure, you can say voters too but does every time a McDonald's open on a corner, do they communicate with every resident in that neighborhood or do they apply for permits with the city? Does that mean McD flunked in communicating with stakeholders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    BTW: the "moving agriculture part" will only occur IF the agricultural products shipped on HSF are accompanied by their drivers.
    I asked Garibaldi that question. Apparently, their tariff approved by the PUC requires the driver to accompany the vehicle. Check out the blog conversation on Honolulu Advertiser with Garibaldi.

    http://blogs.honoluluadvertiser.com/...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

  18. #93

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Joshua:
    You're gonna believe what you want to believe, so that's fine. We can agree to disagree. But the sentiment of the taxpayers is running (if you can believe the numbers Sen. English was quoted as saying, that public testimony is running 2500 for an EIS to 500 against) in favor of requiring an EIS for HSF. Obviously the Legislature can go against the will of the people (as if they haven't done that in the past ) but for the legislators who have to worry about getting reelected in 2008, I think those are the ones who will be "listening" to the voters who have expressed concern. Just a fact of political life, and the same thing happening on the federal level.

    The only reason I bring up leasing the ship to the DoD was because you were whining about gee, there are all these added costs if HSF doesn't launch on time. The only reason I would say that it was OK is because there wouldn't be a mix of military equipment on one trip and then civilian passengers on another trip. If the boat was used exclusively for military transport, at such time as HSF was allowed to transport civilian passengers, the boat could then be decontaminated completely and safely. There are always ways to mitigate risks, you just have to identify as many of those in advance so if they occur, you won't get caught with your pants down.

    Would an EAS win support rather than a full blown EIS? It probably would be required for YB and NCL because they already are in operation. But HSF is an unknown quantity for the State. Does there have to be a disaster of some sort involving HSF for people to say, "duh. Maybe we should have looked at the possibility of this happening before they started service". And it's not YB and NCL that are proposing to change their footprint on Maui. YB is being forced to change its footprint in order to accommodate HSF.

    Organizations like Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are well aware of the issues involved with the cruise ships and dive boats(and private vessels too) dumping raw sewage into the ocean. Nearly every week there's another letter in the Maui News about citizens and visitors noticing clumps of crap washing up on the beach or having to swim through that stuff. Hooray that HSF is promising not to be another perpetrator. But that was only a minor issue brought up by the antis.

    A good project manager will do stakeholder management (including having an agreed-upon communication plan) from the very inception of a project that has as much impact as HSF will. Contingency planning is also important because NO project will ever go exactly as originally planned. As a program manager (which I have also been), you know to expect that. That's why you have risk management and change management plans. It's never always one way. The art of program/project management requires the ability to negotiate and compromise, not to hold one side hostage.

    Have you ever managed a project where the stakeholders (especially the ones who would be impacted directly) weren't told about what was going on until the project was implemented? And then, have you ever tried to convince those people at that time that what was being shoved down their throats was in their best interest? And even if they say OK to your face that they end up sabotaging your efforts anyway? That's what's happening to the people of the Neighbor Islands. The DOT was in cahoots with HSF at the beginning and only when the people of the Neighbor Islands started worrying how HSF would impact their ability to receive critical goods did they start questioning what was going on --sorry that the Neighbor Island people don't roll over and play dead anymore--and HSF and the State started involving the very people whose lives will be impacted. Shame on the State and shame on the management of HSF to believe that they would be welcomed with open arms by the Neighbor Islands without involving them in the process from the very beginning.

    As to why the people on the Neighbor Islands didn't raise cain about YB and NCL when they first started operations? Come on, Joshua! When did YB start doing business on the Neighbor Islands? In the 1920s yeah? Who even thought about the environment then? And when did NCL start operations? In the 1980s? The people on the Neighbor Islands, just as most people in this country, thought nothing about things like contamination of the ocean back then. Probably one of the major reasons why this particular battle over this particular company is occurring is because there is much more awareness now on the part of the Neighbor Island folk that they too, have a stake in decision making in this State. And in general, there is more awareness about environmental issues now.

    The people on the Neighbor Islands don't perceive HSF as crucial to their existence as they do regular service from YB. They regard the cruise boats as a source of irritation but at least those tourists bring money to them. What will HSF offer? The perception is that what HSF will offer is 200+ more cars on their already overcrowded roads per day. And how many of those people who travel on HSF will stay in a hotel or condo? Probably not many. I'm pretty sure most of the people who will use HSF will stay with ohana or friends. So unlike the tourists, there won't be very much money put into the Maui economy to compensate for the clogged Hana Hwy.

    One thing to remember is even if you have all the "right" answers, unless you change the perceptions that exist, you will never win over the antis.

    Miulang

    P.S. Your question about a proposed McD going up in a neighborhood and public notification? In Seattle, anyway, as part of the due diligence of the City, notices are posted advising residents in the area that a permit is being considered. Then public hearings are held. THEN permits are issued. If Hawai'i doesn't follow that policy, then that's the root cause of why you have problems.
    Last edited by Miulang; February 15th, 2007 at 11:06 AM.

  19. #94

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    SB1276 was approved by the joint Senate subcommittees on transportation and the environment and is now headed for debate by the Senate Ways and Means Committee.

    The Senate version approved Wednesday would require a study of traffic, invasive species, harbor space and humpback whale preservation before service could begin.

    “There are big concerns,’’ said Sen. Gary Hooser, D-Kauai-Niihau, vice chair of the environment committee. “We have a responsibility to our community to look into these matters.’’

    He cited a petition signed by 6,000 people who oppose the Superferry, as well as overwhelming testimony against it from hundreds of residents at meetings held on Kauai and Maui.

    He noted the Department of Transportation expressed concern over the threat of a lawsuit by Hawaii Superferry if it is prevented from starting service as scheduled in July – based on commitments made by the DOT in 2004.

    “If the state failed to act appropriately, then the state administration which approved this must work to fix these breaches,” Hooser said.

    On Maui, officials with Hawaii Superferry said they are not opposed to a requirement for an EIS for harbors improvements needed to accommodate the ferry. The $235 million Superferry, a four-story-high catamaran, will carry up to 900 people and 250 cars.

    ...The Superferry has withstood both state and federal lawsuits that attempted to force it to conduct an environmental impact statement, but the Senate bill would require an environmental study by law.

    “This company is committed to helping protect our environment in Hawaii. We want to be here a long time,’’ said Terry O’Halloran, director for business development for the Superferry.

    ...Senate Transportation Chairman J. Kalani English, whose 6th District includes East Maui, Molokai and Lanai, said amendments to SB 1276 require the Department of Transportation to complete an EIS and provide that if any mitigation measures are required, the DOT can assess the Superferry for the costs.

    Whether the Legislature will block the start of the ferry until an EIS is completed is another issue. English said he hopes a bill will be approved, noting “there are a number of vehicles in the Legislature for this.

    ...The bill will advance to the Senate Ways and Means Committee, chaired by Maui Sen. Roz Baker, where those questions could be answered, English said. He said Sen. Ron Menor was reviewing the legal questions.

    “What we’re trying to determine is whether or not the Department of Transportation exceeded its authority by granting the waivers when it said the EIS was not necessary,” he said.

    ...The House bill seeking environmental review of the Superferry died Wednesday when the Transportation Committee declined to hold a hearing on it. Committee chairman Rep. Joe Souki, D-Waihee-Wailuku, didn’t immediately return a phone call seeking comment. Vice chair Rep. Scott Nishimoto, D-Kaimuki-Waikiki, said he didn’t know why the bill wasn’t heard.

    If the bill continues to get approval in Senate committees, it could reappear in the House later this legislative session.
    Uncle Joe Souki, the chair of the House Transportation committee and one of the "oldtime" politicians, allowed the House version of the bill to die. He has not yet commented on his reasons. Whatever they are, I think he's gonna have a few problems with his constituents on Maui who were counting on him to be more forceful and to listen to their concerns.

    Miulang

  20. #95

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    The only reason I bring up leasing the ship to the DoD was because you were whining about gee, there are all these added costs if HSF doesn't launch on time. The only reason I would say that it was OK is because there wouldn't be a mix of military equipment on one trip and then civilian passengers on another trip. If the boat was used exclusively for military transport, at such time as HSF was allowed to transport civilian passengers, the boat could then be decontaminated completely and safely. There are always ways to mitigate risks, you just have to identify as many of those in advance so if they occur, you won't get caught with your pants down.
    Please just stop, let's just agree to disagree. The more you post counterpoints to my points, the more double talk I see. It is now OK to transport military equipment as long as it's on one trip and civilians on another? Since when did HSF ever even proposed mixing the two together? If HSF actually was awarded a contract to ferry military equipment, it would be chartered, non-scheduled service. And you were just fuming over that previously. Now it's ok because there be time to decontaminate? As opposed to before where they could still decontaminate as well? This is the biggest reason I feel antis are driving a business into the ground before it even gets out the gate. Overexaggeration of problems and double standards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    YB is being forced to change its footprint in order to accommodate HSF.
    Is this even true? I thought YB had decided to end "less than a container" service even before HSF. But due to HSF, they have decided to step up the timetable. Maybe a little bit of a spoiler sport by YB?


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    A good project manager.....
    Yes, I've been in projects where there is all the drama of cramming it down people's throats and not involving all stakeholders. And in some cases, it ended up being the right thing to do. I've also been involved with projects where the managers involve all the stakeholders and the project sputtered around because as the saying goes, too many cooks in the kitchen. Bottom line is this, each project is different. A real PM can use skills learned to react accordingly. But 8/10 PMs are a waste in my opinion because all they can do is quote PMBOK DMAIC, etc. They spend more time on the concept of project management rather than manage the project. So no more debate on PM, HSF did approach the appropriate stakeholders in the initial stages of the project. In fact, a lot of island residents were pro HSF in the beginning. So what if HSF did include these folks then and now residents are having second thoughts? Then what? HSF's plan is actually very reasonable. Antis are the ones making uncompromising demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    As to why the people on the Neighbor Islands didn't raise cain about YB and NCL when they first started operations? Come on, Joshua! When did YB start doing business on the Neighbor Islands? In the 1920s yeah?
    Well in that case, why do people harp on the oil companies? Heck, many of them started at the turn of the 20th century. So if YB or NCL started dumping nuclear waste, don't be whining about it either because heck, YB was here since the 20s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    The people on the Neighbor Islands don't perceive HSF as crucial to their existence as they do regular service from YB. They regard the cruise boats as a source of irritation but at least those tourists bring money to them. What will HSF offer? The perception is that what HSF will offer is 200+ more cars on their already overcrowded roads per day. And how many of those people who travel on HSF will stay in a hotel or condo? Probably not many. I'm pretty sure most of the people who will use HSF will stay with ohana or friends. So unlike the tourists, there won't be very much money put into the Maui economy to compensate for the clogged Hana Hwy.
    Ahh...so the real agenda surfaces, it's all about the $$$. Which is precisely what I've always thought of regarding the antis agenda. As for 200+ cars, you realize it goes both ways right? It also means neighbor islanders can also get to Oahu and not have to rent a car, a hotel, or condo when they stay too. It also means they can come to Oahu to camp, fish, hike, whatever too.

    I'm done, you can have all the counterpoints you want. Whether HSF lives or dies ultimately doesn't affect me except maybe where my tax money goes if their loans default and the feds have to pick up the tab. I find it funny that more often than not, the issue is always mangled into some neighbor island vs Oahu issue when many folks like me never even looked at it that way. I always hear bout neighbor islanders lament at the extra high cost of things and when something comes along that has the ability to perhaps change those dynamics, people always find a way to stop it. Then they continue to lament about the high cost of living. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

  21. #96

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    It's all about perception, Joshua.

    Miulang

  22. #97

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Sen. Gary Hooser from Kaua'i, in his column in the Garden Isle News, writes about his take on HSF and its impact on Kaua'i and the Neighbor Islands. Nawiliwili is also supposed to have HSF service beginning this coming July.

    With the Hawaii Superferry slated to begin operations in July of this year, a quick glance at the harbor area where the vessels are scheduled to arrive will show you that no improvements have been made to the area whatsoever. There are no bathrooms, no ticket booths, no security screening areas and no vehicular “wash-down” facilities. I am told there will be a “tent” put up as a passenger holding area and that portable toilets will be used. I am also told that there will be no parking provided at all and no improvements made to the ingress and egress at the highway junction.

    ...As to questions of security and invasive species protection, the Hawaii Superferry has stated that it “will work with local law enforcement and the Department of Agriculture.” There is no requirement by the state Department of Transportation to ensure inspections, no inspection facilities and no trained inspectors. There is also no commitment by the Superferry to pay the increased costs incurred by our local police and agriculture departments that are already severely understaffed.

    At the Lihu‘e Airport, all passengers and all baggage go through a rigorous security process and are thoroughly screened. This will not be the case for Superferry passengers and baggage, with the statement there will only be “selective screening.”

    The County Councils of Maui, the Big Island and Kaua‘i have all been adamant in their request that the state of Hawai‘i requires an EIS prior to the start of the Superferry operations. A majority of the Neighbor Island state legislators have indicated their support for an EIS requirement, and thousands of individual citizens have made it abundantly clear that they believe an EIS should be mandatory.

    ...One of those triggers is the utilization of public funds on public lands to construct improvements that will result in significant new impacts. The financing of the Hawaii Superferry construction is being guaranteed by the federal government and the state taxpayers are funding $40 million in harbor improvements directly tied to the Superferry operations.

    The broad, long-term and significant impacts of the Superferry operations, combined with its extensive reliance of public funding, translates to a higher level of public accountability. If this were a private business on private land utilizing only private funding, the situation might be different, but it is not.
    Miulang

  23. #98
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    Cool Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Okay, I've totally reached my limit on one piece of nonsense. Miulang's quote of Sen. Gary Hooser notes that he says "thousands of individual citizens have made it abundantly clear that they believe an EIS should be mandatory." That same line is used daily by the anti's. We hear endlessly about the 6,000 people who signed the petition. Well, enough is enough.
    Let's look at the numbers here.
    The state of Hawai`i has a population of 1,300,000. Of that number, just over 1,000,000 are over the age of 18. Ergo, the 6,000 people who signed the petition against the SuperFerry constitutes an incredibly manini 0.6% of the total population!!!
    Yes, folks, barely one-half of one percent of our citizens signed the petition. The anti-SuperFerry group has failed miserably. There's simply no way to put a good 'spin' on those ridiculously low numbers.
    Now, shut up and go away, and bring on the SuperFerry, which the huge majority of our citizens clearly DO want.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  24. #99

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Let's look at the numbers here.
    The state of Hawai`i has a population of 1,300,000. Of that number, just over 1,000,000 are over the age of 18. Ergo, the 6,000 people who signed the petition against the SuperFerry constitutes an incredibly manini 0.6% of the total population!!!
    Yes, folks, barely one-half of one percent of our citizens signed the petition.
    Now, shut up and go away, and bring on the SuperFerry, which the huge majority of our citizens DO want.
    I just have one question, Lika: if the other 1 million potential customers of HSF want it so much, why isn't there a hue and clamor at the public hearings in favor of HSF? Why isn't there a counter petition, like for the anti-smoking ban group (at least they're trying to make their sentiments known in a formal, public way)? Or is it just because the people of Hawai'i are complacent and don't care one way or the other?

    Maybe the State Legislature should just let HSF run, and let them also run the risk of having some pretty nice price tag lawsuits filed later on down the road if something does happen. I even see that the pro-business Hawaii Reporter and Pacific Business News both, while saying that it's unfair to require an EIS for HSF if none is required for YB and NCL, also doubt that HSF will be a long-term viable enterprise anyway, because, for instance, the PBN questions HSF's business model. But it's not PBN's call, either.

    What Sen. Hooser says about the lack of improvements at Nawiliwili is also true for Kahului. The DOT says the "barges" that will be the point of embarcation/debarcation for cars will be delivered in May--it's because the "barges" are not permanent facilities that HSF even has a prayer to be excluded from an EIS. It's Feb. now. Have they already started moving YB's footprint on Maui? No. Do they expect that that realignment---since it will also require taking back some property from A&B and developing it---will be finished by July? I don't know. Oh, but we do have a brand, spanking new "green" carwash that HSF passengers with cars will be able to use which was built by a private company specifically for that purpose, so I guess we might be "one up" on Kauai.

    Honolulu's lucky: you've already got a nice, new passenger ferry terminal with all the amenities. The Neighbor Islands will get tents and portapotties and no places for cars other than those on board the HSF to park. So if you've got ohana who you want to meet at the ferry dock, where are you supposed to park?

    Would the DOT at least do a little test in Kahului by putting 200 cars in the area where HSF will dock and see what happens when you have 200 cars added to the general traffic flow over the space of about 20 minutes? Maybe that's all it would take to alleviate most of the concerns of the people who have to use Hana Hwy as their route to go between upcountry and Kahului and Wailuku. And that certainly could be done within weeks, if not days.

    Miulang

    P.S. as long as the airfares stay as cheap as they are, I personally would not be one of those riding HSF, and HSF could not be viable charging $29, either, if they intend to match the cheapest air fare.
    Last edited by Miulang; February 17th, 2007 at 07:31 PM.

  25. #100
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    I just have one question, Lika: if the other 1 million potential customers of HSF want it so much, why isn't there a hue and clamor at the public hearings in favor of HSF?
    You weren't born yesterday. You're clearly bright enough to know that only complainers make a "hue and clamor" and that the majority of people are, well, the silent majority. And 99.4% is indeed, you know, a majority.

    Or is it just because the people of Hawai'i are complacent and don't care one way or the other?
    And there you have it, in your own words, even. Most don't care. And the anti's haven't made any impression on them.

    Maybe the State Legislature should just let HSF run, and let them also run the risk of having some pretty nice price tag lawsuits filed later on down the road if something does happen.
    If if if. Chicken Little, the sky is falling! How many tens of thousands of cars have been shipped by barge over the decades? How many tens of thousands of people have gone interisland via cruise ship? Why single out SuperFerry when decades of experience do NOT show your "if" problems? Can you spell "discriminatory", boys and girls? Good. I knew you could.

    I even see that the pro-business Hawaii Reporter and Pacific Business News both, while saying that it's unfair to require an EIS for HSF if none is required for YB and NCL, also doubt that HSF will be a long-term viable enterprise anyway, because, for instance, the PBN questions HSF's business model.
    That's why those reporters are still low-paid reporters. If they did know how to do a successful business model, they'd be rich... instead of reporting about people who ARE rich and ARE successful in a variety of businesses.
    And apparently some major banks and unbelievably rich investment firms DO believe the SuperFerry's business model. I'm just making a wild guess here, but those folks seem to know what they're doing. Enough so that they're investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it.

    The DOT says the "barges" that will be the point of embarcation/debarcation for cars will be delivered in May
    Excuse me, but those barges are already here! Cruise on down to Honolulu Harbor and check 'em out.
    Oh. That's right. You don't live here. Well, everyone else can see them.

    (Yadda yadda yadda. Tons of other stuff deleted.)
    Yes folks, I deleted it because it's all smoke and mirrors to try to change the subject and make people forget that barely half of one percent of the total adult population of the state of Hawai`i spoke out against the SuperFerry.
    As they used to say on Dragnet... "Just the facts, ma`am."
    Last edited by LikaNui; February 17th, 2007 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Fixed a minor typo. So sue me. Or, you know, make a petition.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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