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Thread: Red Light Cameras - Again

  1. #1

    Default Red Light Cameras - Again

    It's back, but with a twist. The Red-Light cameras originally proposed back in the VanCam days were designed to catch people who entered the intersection after the light turned red. I had no problem with that.

    But according to the news reports, the new proposal is for people in the intersection when the light turns red. To me that's a completely different and disturbing change.

    My cynical side says that this is a ploy by a vendor of cameras in states with a more restrictive interpretation of a red light, or that it's a ploy to get a steady revenue stream for the state.

    Yes, there's a law about clearing the intersection. But there's a big difference between someone who is in the intersection and near the speed limit when it changes and someone who blocks traffic. While I try to avoid getting caught like that, sometimes traffic comes to an unexpected stop and it happens. It's at worst a traffic flow issue. Not a safety issue like entering an intersection on a red.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    My cynical side says...
    Here's some fuel for you fire.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    Here's some fuel for you fire.
    Oh, that's dirty!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    I believe this is just a reporter misconstruing the details [in the OP's link].
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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    Lightbulb Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    My cynical side says...
    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    Here's some fuel for you fire.
    Okay, I disagreed with GeckoGeek — until I read your link! Knowing what they can do with those cameras currently on O‘ahu, I wouldn’t put it past them.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  6. #6

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    The court will probably say that there is enough warning with a normally timed amber light to allow a vehicle to come to a safe stop by the time the light turns red.

    So if you're caught in the intersection with a red light then the reasoning might be that you were going too fast to allow a safe stop before the light turned red; were trying to beat the light and got caught in the red; were blocking the intersection when the light was red.

    The only ways out of this would be to prove that the amber light was too short to allow a safe stop at the speed limit prior to the light change; or that your vehicle isn't able to stop quickly enough under normal circumstances: A heavily loaded truck, for example, travelling the speed limit, might not be able to stop in time.

    There could be circumstances in which you would have cleared the intersection, but someone rushed into your lane at the last second and you had to suddenly stop but got stuck in the intersection. If the camera system takes a series of photos, that might be provable in court.

    Overall, the pluses (safety and preventing clogged intersections) outweigh the minuses. Lately I'm seeing a lot more people blow red lights and run stop signs. Everyone just has to learn to drive a bit more conservatively.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    recent exhaustive studies have shown that red light cameras and shortened yellow lights actually increase the accident rate. i cant find a link right now but i was listening to a radio show that was discussing this in detail last week.
    more acciddents at intersections with the cameras and some cities have shortened the yellow to increase this revenue. both have resulted in more accidents and a few lawsuits that the cities have lost.
    the bigger the government the smaller the citizen.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by escondido100 View Post
    recent exhaustive studies have shown that red light cameras and shortened yellow lights actually increase the accident rate. i cant find a link right now but i was listening to a radio show that was discussing this in detail last week.
    more acciddents at intersections with the cameras and some cities have shortened the yellow to increase this revenue. both have resulted in more accidents and a few lawsuits that the cities have lost.
    A quick online search turned up this from the National Motorists Association...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    I believe this is just a reporter misconstruing the details [in the OP's link].
    That does seem to be the case. After reading HB145, SB216, HB1170, SB988, and HB388 (all the documents that were found with "red light") I can find no substantiation that it's intended to catch someone in a intersection when the light turns but cars entering the intersection after the light is red.

    However, before anyone endorses RLCs, check out this link: Innocent Man Cannot Drive Because of Camera Tickets. Least you think that's just in the UK, Maryland Students Use Speed Cameras for Revenge

    students duplicate the license plates by printing plate numbers on glossy photo paper, using fonts from certain websites that "mimic" those on Maryland license plates. They tape the duplicate plate over the existing plate on the back of their car and purposefully speed through a speed camera, the parent said. The victim then receives a citation in the mail days later.
    Most of the bills cited above only shoot the license plate. Only one (HB145, if I remember right) require a clear shot of the driver.

    I'm a bit disappointed to reading that speed cameras was defeated - HB388 was aimed a excessive speeding currently defined as 30 over the limit or 80 MPH. Hardly the VanScam of years ago, although I sure some will see that as just a camel in the tent.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    The court will probably say that there is enough warning with a normally timed amber light to allow a vehicle to come to a safe stop by the time the light turns red.

    So if you're caught in the intersection with a red light then the reasoning might be that you were going too fast to allow a safe stop before the light turned red; were trying to beat the light and got caught in the red; were blocking the intersection when the light was red.

    The only ways out of this would be to prove that the amber light was too short to allow a safe stop at the speed limit prior to the light change; or that your vehicle isn't able to stop quickly enough under normal circumstances: A heavily loaded truck, for example, travelling the speed limit, might not be able to stop in time.

    There could be circumstances in which you would have cleared the intersection, but someone rushed into your lane at the last second and you had to suddenly stop but got stuck in the intersection. If the camera system takes a series of photos, that might be provable in court.
    Here's what I think.

    If the state is going to make a complaint against you for blocking an intersection when the light has turned red against you based on video footage evidence, then before the traffic court trial, the defendant should have also access to this evidence, whether it be on DVD-R or a download. This would give the defendant time to come up with an explanation to the judge, assuming there is any. If the defendant has a sufficiently compelling and legitimate explanation that is backed by the video footage evidence, then the judge can render his/her decision.

    But in the vast majority of cases, I have to say this. Most of the times when motorists block an intersection, it's because they're not paying close enough attention. Or worse yet, they simply don't give a damn! Unfortunately, there are too many inconsiderate people like that. If you ask me, fining them big $$$$ via traffic camera evidence would make our roads a lot safer and improve the flow of traffic during rush hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    Overall, the pluses (safety and preventing clogged intersections) outweigh the minuses. Lately I'm seeing a lot more people blow red lights and run stop signs. Everyone just has to learn to drive a bit more conservatively.
    I totally agree. As long as provision is allowed for drivers to give explanations for when they do block intersections (in the small minority of cases where it is unavoidable or legitimate), then let's start cracking down on the majority who are inconsiderate louts.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    In NYC they have signs at most intersections that say "dont block the box"
    and that is a traffic offense.....it is not running a red light. if they dont want people blocking the box, that is what they should say and pass a law that supports it.
    the bigger the government the smaller the citizen.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s.38f22d7.html

    A suburb of Dallas issued more red light citations than people actually living there in 2008. And the best part is...no one knows exactly where all that money went. (Of course that part didn't make the newspaper)

    Can't think of anything creative this time


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    The State would collect a bundle at the corner of Piikoi and Lunalilo, someone is usually blocking the lane heading west during every cycle.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again


  15. #15
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    Question Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
    When will they ever learn?
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    All these cameras are just the implementation of a Big Brother state.

    Fortunately, in a tropical climate most of these cameras crap out soon
    after installation.

    The heat generated in those tiny enclosures literally just cooks them
    If the heat doesn't get em the growth of fungus within the lens
    probably will.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Red Light Cameras - Again

    Quote Originally Posted by lensperson View Post
    Fortunately, in a tropical climate most of these cameras crap out soon after installation.
    No such luck that will kill the idea. The state would just spend even more tax dollars on replacing the dang things.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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