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Thread: Hate Crime?

  1. #1
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    Default Hate Crime?

    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...702240334/1001

    One can only imagine what would happen if it was another Hawaiian who hit their car. Shameful!!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...702240334/1001

    One can only imagine what would happen if it was another Hawaiian who hit their car. Shameful!!
    Jonathan Osorio, chairman of the UH Kamakakuokalani Center for Hawaiian Studies, said that based on what he was told, he does not believe a hate crime was committed.

    "It doesn't matter if their ethnicities are different. It doesn't matter that we're dealing with Hawaiians and haoles here," Osorio said.

    He said he is troubled by suggestions that the incident may have been a hate crime.

    "It worries me when people start calling something like this a hate crime because it starts to ramp up the public temperature over race in Hawai'i, and I don't think we need that," he said.

    He said the incident occurred because of a fender bender. "Leave the rest of us out of it," Osorio said.
    The "Hawaiian" studies teacher IMO, is wrong. It is a hate crime and should be treated as such. Public outcry should make it known that nothing like this should occur in the land of "aloha". Osorio wouldn't have made that statement if he didn't think it was a hate crime. As noted his statement is based on hear say ,not on eyewitness accounts(somebody must have seen it).....Auwe!
    Last edited by alohabear; February 24th, 2007 at 08:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Shameful? Sure. But for simple stupidity, and not for "hate crime." Sheesh.

    We've had more than a few recent examples of stupid traffic accidents becoming fatal confrontations, and the races of the attackers and victims have been all over the map. Had the guy been fat, the attacker would've singled that out. Had he been Vietnamese, same thing. Or bald. Or bearded. Whatever. People sparked into that kind of rage have issues with people, not races.

    The more I read about "hate crimes" and related prosecution, the more I think it's a stupid idea. Which, of course, further estranges me from my liberal, left-leaning friends.

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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    The "Hawaiian" studies teacher IMO, is wrong. It is a hate crime and should be treated as such. Public outcry should make it known that nothing llike this should occur in the land of "aloha". Osorio wouldn't have made that statement if he didn't think it was a hate crime......Auwe!
    I sort of disagree this is a hate crime. Possible but unlikely. It's unlikely these two (father and son) were looking for a "reason" (like an accident) to beat down "haoles". This situation could have easily been "you f***ing jap" or "you f***ing flip" or plainly "you f***ing @ssh@le".

    The father and son suspects were plainly enraged to the point of beating these people senseless, regardless of what they looked like. Obviously, if the kid walked straight up the car and kicked it, then hit the WOMAN. All this points to the fact they BOTH need anger management (and a good time in jail to think about it).

    Sure it's possible the "haole" driver might have been a reckless and inconsiderate driver; something we ALL see every single day, by ALL RACES. I do. To incriminate yourself by beating someone up for it is foolish.

    The scary thing is, with the insane traffic congestion on Oahu, this incident could happen to ANYONE, ANYWHERE, including you and I.

    At the LEAST, I hope they revoke the perpetrator's driver license. At the LEAST. This is just as bad as injuring someone from a DUI. People like this SHOULD NOT DRIVE. Who knows, maybe he was high on Ice? They'll probably do a blood test on everyone involved.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    The dudes didn't go out looking for any ol poor caucasian to beat up. It was more of a reactive rage thing. So it definitely wasn't a hate crime.
    And of course the story is one sided. You don't know what REALLY happened. The haole could have been running his mouth.
    edited

    quote:
    "Dawn Dussell then exited the car, confronted the teen and attempted to push him away from the Dodge and her husband."

    how does someone "attempt" to push ? Sounds like the first blow.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; February 24th, 2007 at 09:12 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    The Star Bulletin story has revealing details about the Paakaula family history of violence. Apparently, the 16-year old was beaten so severely as a child that at least once his father was arrested and convicted of abuse to a family member.

    I have to say I lean towards pz's general attitude towards hate crimes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    I think it was a case of road rage, but I also think the wife of the guy exacerbated the problem by coming to her husband's defense and confronting the driver. Knowing that she had a 3-year-old child sitting in the back seat witnessing all of this, why didn't she think of the safety of her kid first and try to de-escalate the situation? If they had a cell phone, couldn't they just have dialed 911 and gotten the cops out there to defuse the situation instead? Better to get your car doors kicked in than to get your face beaten into a pulp, as the victims discovered.

    The best way to get beaten or shot at in a case of road rage is to try to out testosterone the person who's swearing at you. A hate crime, IMO, is when the crime is committed with malice and forethought. This particular incident was caused because of a fateful encounter, not willful planning.

    Miulang
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Sounds like the Paakaula father wasn't involved in the initial scuffle. When a father sees his family involved in a fight his natural reactions are to go and defend his family.

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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by glossyp View Post
    The Star Bulletin story has revealing details about the Paakaula family history of violence. Apparently, the 16-year old was beaten so severely as a child that at least once his father was arrested and convicted of abuse to a family member.[...]
    The boy's mother told police her husband beat her son for 15 minutes, first with a belt and then with his fists. She said he stopped only after she called her husband's father to intervene, according to the police report.
    [...]
    Paakaula pleaded guilty to abuse of a family member, a misdemeanor, Aug. 26, 2002, and was sentenced to 14 days in prison, to be served on seven consecutive weekends, and two years' probation. On May 27, 2003, Paakaula requested and was granted early release from probation.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    And how traumatized will the victims' 3-year-old son be if he witnessed the beating of his parents?

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    I also think the wife of the guy exacerbated the problem by coming to her husband's defense
    Yes, it's their fault they got beat up. Maybe the husband should go back to Iraq where it's safer.

    The Advertiser story leaves many details out. The original Star-Bulletin story that broke open this incident

    http://starbulletin.com/2007/02/22/news/story10.html

    indicates that the "local" son was the one who initially went into crazed assault mode but his mother, instead of controlling her son, went berserk when the Army guy's wife tried to prevent her husband from being killed. I wonder why she wasn't charged as well as her son and husband. She didn't restrain him until the victims were bleeding and unconscious.

    "Hate" crime? I dunno. There's certainly a lot of bottled-up rage there, and it only needs an excuse to set it off. And it seems that it was unleashed only because the other people were white. Reminds me a bit of the Mainland policeman who was beaten up on North Shore.

    Another question is why people at the scene didn't stop it. It's not that easy to calm down people who are crazed and want to kill.

    I wonder what it's like to be the Paakaula's neighbors?
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Please. Hate crime legislation is some of the stupidest lawmaking I've ever heard of and it fries my ham that the phrase even exists in the lexicon. What happened is terrible, but it has nothing to do with "hate crime," and even if it did, what's the difference?
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    This subject was on the local news on Wed. night, iirc. Can't remember which channel. What caused me to pay attention to it was hearing the family in the SUV was backing in to the parking space and one of their side mirrors clipped the perpetrator's car. That reminded me of a current HT thread! I don't remember the racial slur being reported so, based on my reply in that thread, I wondered if my random observations held true in this case...esp. since my attempt at backing in would probably produce the same result!

    But, yeah, what Keanu mentioned in post #1. It doesn't appear to be a text book case of a hate crime but I have to wonder if race added fuel to the fire. I hope the Paakaula family receives help with anger management before someone is killed.

    A few months ago I arrive at a red light (Bishop and King) while a road rage incident was in progress. I don't know what instigated it but 2 cars were stopped, one in front of the other, in a middle lane on King St., just past the intersection. A local man from the front car was standing next to the back car, pounding on the driver's side window while screaming. I couldn't see who was in the drivers seat but s/he did not roll down the window! A number of people on the sidewalk were watching, some with cell phones to their ears. The light changed and I was on my way so I have no idea what happened after that.

    Scary stuff.

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    What if the victims were two HUGE Samoans? I don't think they would have been THAT stupid to attack them. I think because of "who" the victims were the Paakaulas knew they could mess them up and walk away from it. Had it been two other people beefer and BIGGER they would have not beaten them.
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    What if the victims were two HUGE Samoans? I don't think they would have been THAT stupid to attack them. I think because of "who" the victims were the Paakaulas knew they could mess them up and walk away from it. Had it been two other people beefer and BIGGER they would have not beaten them.
    It was a 16 year old kid fighting a grown man(a soldier too).

    The Paakaula father came in after the scuffle had started. The way I see it...he came to defend his family. I doubt that the Paakaula father cared whether it was a haole or a Samoan.


    What some people dont realise is that sometimes the guy laying on the floor is the same guy who started the fight.

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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    What if the victims were two HUGE Samoans? I don't think they would have been THAT stupid to attack them. I think because of "who" the victims were the Paakaulas knew they could mess them up and walk away from it. Had it been two other people beefer and BIGGER they would have not beaten them.
    Then that has nothing to do with hate crimes.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoiBoy View Post
    The Paakaula father came in after the scuffle had started. The way I see it...he came to defend his family.
    And attacked the woman who was reportedly 5'3" tall rather than go after the husband? This is classic abuser behavior - they attack the smaller,weaker person, not the one who might actually be able to present a fair fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    Please. Hate crime legislation is some of the stupidest lawmaking I've ever heard of and it fries my ham that the phrase even exists in the lexicon. What happened is terrible, but it has nothing to do with "hate crime," and even if it did, what's the difference?
    While it doesn't change the magnitude of the physical crime, the difference is, as I understand it, being convicted of a hate crime can tack on additional punishment.

    "Fries my ham"...HA...love it!

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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    The revelation that the male victim is an enlisted soldier who served TWO tours in Iraq makes this all more upsetting. This is just as bad as if the victim had been an off-duty police officer. These are people who protect our lives and welfare, and they're thanked with this kind of behavior?

    Instead of giving them (the suspects) jail, send them on a tour of duty in Iraq, driving around in a HumVee. See how far they get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    One can only imagine what would happen if it was another Hawaiian who hit their car. Shameful!!
    Do you think it would have been different if it was another Hawaiian?
    Neither car was damaged, the witnesses said.
    The teenage boy in the Chevy got out, angry his vehicle was struck and allegedly began yelling profanities, calling the other driver "f----g haole" and kicking the driver-side door, according to the affidavit.

    A 43-year-old female witness, who asked not to be identified, told the Star-Bulletin that the teen began punching the man, who was still sitting in the driver's seat.

    The affidavit said the 23-year-old woman got out of the Durango and tried to push the teen away from the vehicle and her husband. At that point the teen's mother jumped in and started fighting with the woman, police said.

    The witness said the teen's mother got on top of the woman and began punching her.
    I wonder why the teen's mother sent her son to confront the driver?
    The older witness told the Star-Bulletin that she was disturbed by the use of racial slurs.

    "It's really sad to see," she said. "You would think that we as Hawaiians would have outgrown that."
    Witnesses heard the racial slurs, not a hate crime, but a good attorney will make a good case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glossyp View Post
    And attacked the woman who was reportedly 5'3" tall rather than go after the husband? This is classic abuser behavior - they attack the smaller,weaker person, not the one who might actually be able to present a fair fight.
    The haole guy got beat up

    That haole woman probably got pushed and sustained injuries from the fall.
    attacked=broad

    Take what you read in the papers with a grain of salt. It doesn't tell the whole story. I thought people knew that already.

    This is classic abuser behavior - they attack the smaller,weaker person, not the one who might actually be able to present a fair fight.
    A fair fight isn't between a 16year old kid vs. a grown military man and his wife. Regardless of who instigated what.

    Had I come out of a icecream store .... seen my son fighting a grown man and my wife fighting with another woman. I would have pushed the woman, then beat the crap out of dude. Alpha male Fatherly instincts kick in....right or wrong.

    Quote alohabear "I wonder why the teen's mother sent her son to confront the driver?"
    Where did you read that the mother sent her son to confront the driver? Stop making stuff up.
    Last edited by PoiBoy; February 24th, 2007 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    [...]I wonder why the teen's mother sent her son to confront the driver?[...]
    From what I read I didn't get the impression the mom sent her son. Based on the SBs 2/24 story linked above, it's fairly easy for me to understand why the teen has a short fuse and uses physical abuse to vent such unwarranted anger. The family needs some heavy intervention, imnsho.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Here is the Federal definition of a "hate crime". Interestingly, Hawai'i's hate crime laws appear to deal only with sexual orientation/gender discrimination, not with racial ones.

    I was a classmate of the younger brother of Andrew Goodman, one of the 3 college students (2 white, one black) killed in Mississippi while trying to enroll black voters in the 1960s. THAT was a hate crime, pure and simple.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; February 24th, 2007 at 03:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoiBoy View Post
    Take what you read in the papers with a grain of salt.
    And take what you read on a message board with a huge chunk of rock salt! The speculation here is even worse than any inaccuracies you might ascribe to the press. The closest you'll get to what happened will come out in the courts, and even then, you'll have a minimum of two versions of the story.

    Anyway. A crime was commited here, and fault can be divided up a million ways (and will be). But even if you believe there is such a thing as a "hate crime," this one doesn't qualify. Race didn't determine the victim here... circumstance and a short fuse did.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Hate Crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoiBoy View Post
    The haole guy got beat up

    That haole woman probably got pushed and sustained injuries from the fall.
    attacked=broad
    According to the report (which Buzz1941 linked to above) from the SB on 2/22 witnesses who saw the incident:
    "Paakaula allegedly "punched the woman in the face, picked her off her feet and slammed her onto the asphalt," apparently knocking her out momentarily, according to the affidavit.
    Another witness, a 65-year-old woman who also asked for anonymity because of fears of retribution, said the woman flew back 10 feet, landing under her car."
    [emphasis added]

    PoiBoy, you have taken the view that the incident was explainable because of "fatherly instincts" kicking in. The truth is this family is tragically damaged by violence. The 16-year old is a victim as well - no one protected him from his father and now the predictable cycle of violence continues and escalates as he grows older with no knowledge of how to deal with anger and rage or how to break the cycle. Adding to the tragedy is that now there are victims outside the family.

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