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  • #16
    Re: What do you believe?

    One thing I would like to say first, I appreciate everyone's honesty and the fact that each poster has shown respect for everyone else's beliefs.

    I would like to share a few thoughts of my own here;

    I was born and raised Roman Catholic, I attended a Catholic grade school, a Capuchin Seminary High School and a Jesuit University. Needless to say I understand much about the Catholic faith. Oh and all my brothers and sisters were raised the same, all 8 of us. My Mom still is and my Dad was as well, God Bless his soul. Anyway....

    I now live in Okinawa, Japan and personally I have found that my beliefs in God have changed drastically since living here. I believe now that there is one God but he has many different faces. I find it difficult to believe that with all the different races and cultures that I have come across since living here that God only has one face. I believe that he or maybe she choose to show his face differently to different people's. Shinto to the Japanese, Buddha to many in Asia and the list goes on. I believe now that faith is an important and private part of each persons life, and what they choose to believe in is their God given right.

    Now in my family, one sister is Ba'hai, one brother is a devout Lutheran, one brother a born again Christian and me a happy believer in many different parts of many different faiths. I just like to believe that we all are worshiping the same God. We all accept each other for who we are and what we believe in.

    I am really and truly blessed to have such a family. Thanks for letting me share that.
    ウチナむく

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    • #17
      Re: What do you believe?

      I believe everyone has the right to decide. I also believe people can make the wrong decisions.

      I believe in God. I also believe those who don't have that right to do so. I know where I'm heading after death because of my faith in God. Unfortunately I also have to believe that there is a place for those who don't have faith in God.

      Not believing in Hell is not believing in God. Faith works both ways.

      It is not for me to judge those who choose not to believe. Some of my best friends and family choose not to believe yet I still love them. Some believe that just doing good will grant them acceptance into Heaven. There is a saying: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

      It's all about faith. Knowing that our savior will guide us to a better place and that our time on Earth as mortals are our tests of it.

      For those who choose not to believe, I tell of the possiblility of chance.

      If there is a God and you believe, the outcome is bliss
      If there is a God and you don't believe, the outcome is horrific
      If there isn't a God and you believe, there is no outcome
      If there isn't a God and you don't believe, who the heck cares?

      Being a good person and believing in God grants you into Heaven
      Being a good person but not believing in God won't
      Being a bad person and believing in God grants you a ticket to Hell
      Being a bad person and not believing in God grants you a ticket to Hell

      You look at all four scenerios and the best outcome is believing and being a good person.

      The worst case scenerio is not believing in God and going to Hell whether you are good or bad.

      It comes down to two outcomes: There is a God and you go to Heaven or there isn't a God and you turn to dust and your existance is nothing more than a memory to those who are still alive.

      Which would you choose if there was a God? Remember if there was a God and you chose not to believe then that outcome is Hell.

      There would be no choice if there wasn't a God because there would be no outcome to your fate. You simply cease to exist. Who cares about your legacy if you're not there to enjoy it in spirit.

      The best outcome would be to believe whether there is a God or not. In this choice you either go to Heaven or cease to exist.

      Not believing there is a God will result in one of two consequences: You go to Hell or you cease to exist.

      Algebracally speaking, ceasing to exist cancels out each other in either outcome and what's left is going to Heaven or going to Hell.

      Faced with those two final choices, I choose to believe and take the chance there is a God.

      Everyone has a choice but when faced with possible outcomes it is human nature to choose the better one. It's common sense to do so.
      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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      • #18
        Re: What do you believe?

        Originally posted by scrivener View Post
        I think there is a difference between believing that there is no god and not believing in a god. The former IS a matter of faith, because you cannot prove that something does not exist; therefore, to be convinced there is no god requires some amount of faith.
        That's an interesting way to put it, Mitchell. Hmm. At least I won't feel bad putting "Atheist" in the "Religion/Faith" field of surveys.

        I married a Catholic, and we've decided to raise our kids as Catholics. Not strict, old-school Catholics, but generally within and friendly to the church, including "catechism," baptism, and the like. We're firm in our belief that our children will be able to choose their own way, reject the church and become naked dancing pagans someday (and of course I'd find that pretty cool), but we primarily want them to have a foundation of faith or religion to reject in the first place.

        The kids know I'm not part of the club (I don't go up for communion and little things like that), but don't see it as a conflict. Just a different path. After all, we also expose them to the Buddhist way thanks to my father's side of the family.

        I guess they may come to believe, as Craig apparently does, that I'm going to hell when I die... but hey, that's where all the cool folks will be hanging out anyway.

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        • #19
          Re: What do you believe?

          how many religions have a Hell component in their afterlife beliefs? I am a Christian who is completely unconcerned about post-mortem issues, and don't find Jesus' teachings and actions to be about the afterlife, but the here and now.

          pax

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          • #20
            Re: What do you believe?

            Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
            I guess they may come to believe, as Craig apparently does, that I'm going to hell when I die... but hey, that's where all the cool folks will be hanging out anyway.
            It's not that I'm condemning you to Hell, (that's God's job so don't do it for him) but believing in God mandates that those who don't will go to Hell.

            As for the cool people there are good cool people and there are bad cool people. But in a world of fire and brimstone there won't be any "cool" to go around and all that's left is the bad cuz the good cool people will be in a world of bliss.

            So what is Hell to a person? I'd think the worst place they could imagine multiplied by an infinate number. Now PZ imagine you're condemned to Hell and you find a robot version of me lashing out to you why you should have listened to me. And in this scenerio you can't answer back, you can't leave, you can't shut your ears, and I won't listen to you anyway. You have to sit and listen to my drudgery...for eternity! Is that Hell enough for you?

            Not enough? Imagine your family hurting after your death and you can't do a thing to help, protect, or comfort them...That would be Hell for me and something I would forever feel responsible for.

            If Hell was a place for cool people and you enjoy it that isn't Hell. Same as if you were convicted of a crime and the prison was Aloha Tower Marketplace on a warm balmy Friday evening and unlimited cash to spend. Doesn't make sense right?

            You go to hell to be punished, not to party. The real party is upstairs in the VIP room by the way where the rest of your Catholic family will be when it's their turn.
            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What do you believe?

              Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
              That's an interesting way to put it, Mitchell. Hmm. At least I won't feel bad putting "Atheist" in the "Religion/Faith" field of surveys.

              I married a Catholic, and we've decided to raise our kids as Catholics. Not strict, old-school Catholics, but generally within and friendly to the church, including "catechism," baptism, and the like. We're firm in our belief that our children will be able to choose their own way, reject the church and become naked dancing pagans someday (and of course I'd find that pretty cool), but we primarily want them to have a foundation of faith or religion to reject in the first place.

              The kids know I'm not part of the club (I don't go up for communion and little things like that), but don't see it as a conflict. Just a different path. After all, we also expose them to the Buddhist way thanks to my father's side of the family.

              I guess they may come to believe, as Craig apparently does, that I'm going to hell when I die... but hey, that's where all the cool folks will be hanging out anyway.
              My kids went to a Baptist preschool, so got a serious immersion of Jesus Juice. They know about Mary, Joseph, God, The Holy Spirit, saints, etc., Noah and the rest of the Biblical characters. So here I am, a fallen Catholic, a fallen Born Againer, and I decide it's time to go to Sunday services and let them go to Sunday School. They loved it. I didn't. I knew people there, but I sat by myself. I don't know if it's the "single" woman factor or what, but I felt like a fifth wheel in every row or every group I sat in.
              But what sealed the vault shut for me was when Kid 1 started spouting what her instructor was loading into her brain, which was a mockery of those who believed in evolution. I felt it unchristian to mock anyone. I felt it was hypocritical. So I yanked my kids out and haven't been back since. They know Jesus. They're also going to know respect for others. Do we really know enough to assign a hierarchy of the world's faiths to say which is best? I don't think so.
              Aloha from Lavagal

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              • #22
                Re: What do you believe?

                I like the way you break it down into algebraic logic, Craig...except for the flaw that algebraic logic requires some proven constants in order for the equation to work properly. Your scenarios take the concepts of Heaven, Hell, eternal bliss, etc. as proven. You and I will undoubtedly have different definitions of the last word in that previous sentence.

                But the part that most resonates with me is this:
                Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                there isn't a God and you turn to dust and your existance is nothing more than a memory to those who are still alive.
                Personally, I think we humans are conceited in our belief that we must leave some sort of lasting trace of our existence. I try to do good while I am here, but once I have turned to dust (well, parts of me - I hope some of my organs go on to serve others' needs after I die), I do not have any desire of a legacy connected to my name or being. I am competely comfortable with the prospect of being forgotten as time marches on --- as we will ALL be in the end. Eventually, it is predicted that all of human history will burn up as the sun expands and envelops the Earth. Nothing will remain - no history, no legacy, no endowments, plaques, commemorations, monuments, memorials. We will all be forgotten and it will be as if none of us ever existed at all. It is only our human egos that lead us to stop short of accepting that.

                And it neither disturbs nor depresses me to realize this. We are transitory, and our value to the universe is nil. But our value to each other, while we are here, is high - so I put my efforts into the present life, not the faint hope of one to come after.

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                • #23
                  Re: What do you believe?

                  Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                  For those who choose not to believe, I tell of the possiblility of chance.

                  If there is a God and you believe, the outcome is bliss
                  If there is a God and you don't believe, the outcome is horrific
                  If there isn't a God and you believe, there is no outcome
                  If there isn't a God and you don't believe, who the heck cares?

                  Being a good person and believing in God grants you into Heaven
                  Being a good person but not believing in God won't
                  Being a bad person and believing in God grants you a ticket to Hell
                  Being a bad person and not believing in God grants you a ticket to Hell
                  This idea is best known from its articulation by Blaise Pascal in the 17th century and is known as Pascal's Wager.

                  The problem is that the way you state it, the only factor you're considering is how belief affects you after you die -- do you go to heaven, hell, or nowhere? However, there's another factor to consider -- how does belief affect you while you're living?

                  There are costs associated with belief and disbelief. If your religion says you should behave a certain way, then belief comes with the cost of having to adhere to your religion's standards of conduct. Depending on the religion, that could be a pretty high cost.

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                  • #24
                    Re: What do you believe?

                    Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
                    This idea is best known from its articulation by Blaise Pascal in the 17th century and is known as Pascal's Wager.

                    The problem is that the way you state it, the only factor you're considering is how belief affects you after you die -- do you go to heaven, hell, or nowhere? However, there's another factor to consider -- how does belief affect you while you're living?

                    There are costs associated with belief and disbelief. If your religion says you should behave a certain way, then belief comes with the cost of having to adhere to your religion's standards of conduct. Depending on the religion, that could be a pretty high cost.

                    That's why faith is so important when you agree to live that way. A high cost indeed but if the notion of a god is true, then the higher cost is not believing. I believe in economizing.
                    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What do you believe?

                      actually, if you look at the bible in its proper historical context, hell is not a place of "hellfire and brimstone" (strangely enough).

                      when jesus spoke of hell, he meant hell as being "without god."

                      followers of christ afterwards (like john of revelations, i think) invented the hellfire and brimstone notion of hell.

                      so, if you walk around this earth and reject god, then, you are in hell.

                      also, jews, who certainly believe in god, don't have a hell.

                      em, i don't have handy references for this with me at the moment (i'm cruising at work waiting for eric to scoop me up) but as soon as i do, i will get back at y'all.

                      side note: the whole, kill an infidel and you will go to heaven to reside with so many virgins, notion in islam was invented long (centuries?) after the origin of islam.
                      superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                      "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                      nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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                      • #26
                        Re: What do you believe?

                        ^ I thought Dante was also responsible for the inferno-esque Hell that people have come to picture.
                        "Hey fool, we gots yo leada!"
                        "But I can't even read good."
                        "Whatever that means, you ____ peasant."
                        "That (stuff) is the MOST BALLER THING EVAAA!!!!"

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                        • #27
                          Re: What do you believe?

                          Any other non-Christian, non-atheists on here? I'm sorta agnostic pagan and my wife is in Asatru (the non-racist kind ). Hey, we hiked to the lava flows at Volcanoes last night, so if I lose Craig's logic wager at least we got a preview of the brimstone :P

                          What was the Twain quote? "At least the smell of sulfur is not too unpleasant to the nose of a sinner"

                          I'm pretty cool with whatever anyone wants to be as long as they're not out to convert me, and I've had to add another condition to that lately.. as long as their religion does not lead them to neglect/destroy the land.

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                          • #28
                            Re: What do you believe?

                            I had to laugh when I read about "taking Bible in its proper historical context". No offense, ericncyn, but wars were waged over this and interpreting Bible and other sacred texts (as you probably know) is very difficult and often dangerous. Who's to decide on what's "proper" while discussing issues of faith? An atheist scholar, a Catholic theologian or someone else? Jesus did preach about hellfire, eternal punishment and torment and his teachings can be interpreted either or both ways. I think you were a bit hasty to conclude that the notion of hellfire was invented later. It is in the Old Testament that we first hear about "the lake of fire". I find the term "invented" somewhat objectionable in this context as well but that's based on my personal beliefs. However if you believe the "followers of Christ" invented things it is difficult to make any further claims regarding his teachings as everything he said was reported by the said followers. In any case Hell can be read and is still being read as a fiery pit in both the New and the Old Testament. Who's to judge what's the right interpretation? The very concept of "fire and brimstone" comes from the Old Testament.

                            Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup.

                            From what I understand Jews generally do not believe in Hell as everlasting punishment but they do believe in the concept of a (painful) cleansing. A sort of a Purgatory, something in which Protestants do not believe. The Protestants do believe, however, in the everlasting Hell and here you hear both about the "separation from God" as the sole form of Hell and that it's a real fiery pit and even that Jesus is present during torment (Revelation). Pope John Paul II was sometimes blamed for corrupting the "original" idea of Hell with the "separation from God" teaching although the teaching itself is old. It is true that Catholic Church regards the separation from God the chief torment of Hell and the late Pope insisted on that but the Church never abandoned the idea of the real place of torment. The new Pope has reminded us recently that such place is very real. The same pope has also called limbo "only a theological hypothesis" raising a few uncomfortable issues. Catholicism also teaches that in addition to the fiery torment associated with Hell wretched souls also face the accidental punishment of having to endure their fate together with others. According to the Orthodox Church Hell is torment in the presence of God and especially because of the presence of God. It is the nature of sin that it writhes in agony in the presence of God while the saved souls bask in his glory. Jehova's witnesses from what I have heard believe in the separation from God as the sole form of Hell. I have made a lot of assertions here about other people's beliefs and someone please correct me if they see any unpardonable mistakes.

                            In Quran Hell is very real and fiery as well.

                            Dante was very meticulous in his description of Hell. There's no such level of graphic detail in the Bible or anywhere else but the idea to divide Hell in sections was certainly not his.

                            As far as being a calculated believer (because it's in your interest), it's something almost impossible to achieve as it entails forcing oneself to believe something we're not willing or ready to accept. In real life it amounts to paying lip service to the established religion. A convinced atheist is infinitely more honest and I think more likely to change his mind. I simply do not understand atheism as religion.

                            It's 3 AM. I'm crazy for not being in bed.

                            Good night.

                            Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                            actually, if you look at the bible in its proper historical context, hell is not a place of "hellfire and brimstone" (strangely enough).

                            when jesus spoke of hell, he meant hell as being "without god."

                            followers of christ afterwards (like john of revelations, i think) invented the hellfire and brimstone notion of hell.

                            so, if you walk around this earth and reject god, then, you are in hell.

                            also, jews, who certainly believe in god, don't have a hell.

                            em, i don't have handy references for this with me at the moment (i'm cruising at work waiting for eric to scoop me up) but as soon as i do, i will get back at y'all.

                            side note: the whole, kill an infidel and you will go to heaven to reside with so many virgins, notion in islam was invented long (centuries?) after the origin of islam.
                            Last edited by reineke; March 29, 2007, 09:17 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: What do you believe?

                              Originally posted by reineke View Post
                              A convinced atheist is infinitely more honest and I think more likely to change his mind. I simply do not understand atheism as religion.
                              Atheism as a religion goes like this: when given a proposition like Deism (God may or may not exist, but he created the world as it is, evolution, big bang, and all) they will deny the possibility of it and deride it as wasted thinking or childishness. When a religious Atheist is presented with anything that (maybe) contradicts their tangible view of the world, they will tend to label it as wishful thinking, playacting, and delusions rather than considering it logically (and maybe rejecting it still). This is when it pushes past skepticism and becomes a religion of its own, of only believing in what's physically in front of you (see, Ayn Rand and Objectivism).

                              A traditional atheist is more like today's "agnostic". Someone who is skeptical, tries to reason things out logically, but does not particularly accept or deny the existence of supernatural things. But at the same time they'd rather find a scientific explanation or assume that there may be one.

                              Uhh.. there's also this from the Uncyclopedia (heehee) (edit: I guess I should put a "warning: this link might offend you" on this... the quality and humor of Uncyclopedia varies minute to minute on the vandalism of the pages)
                              Last edited by Bard; March 30, 2007, 12:34 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: What do you believe?

                                Atheism is not a religion.
                                It has none of the trappings of a religion - no organized gatherings, no worship, no set of rules or teachings to follow obediently.
                                If anything, it is the lack of (or better still, the rejection of) religion.

                                If I may borrow from Sam Harris, an author who has been addressing this subject in many publications recently:
                                Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

                                It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.

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