What do you believe?

[beaker]

Re: What do you believe?

One question that some christians/jews/islamics have asked me (or fellow physicists) is what would drive people to do good (or be good) if there were no religon to guide them.

You have to marvel at the cold immorality of such people, who admit that their only motivation to do "good" is that they believe it was commanded from on-high and they'll get some punishment or reward (bribe) in some imaginary afterlife. And yet ironically they sure believe that they're the most "moral" people of all. Most of us do good simply because we're nice and we like to live in happy communities.

[cynsaligia]

Re: What do you believe?

I had to laugh when I read about "taking Bible in its proper historical context". No offense, ericncyn, but wars were waged over this and interpreting Bible and other sacred texts (as you probably know) is very difficult and often dangerous. Who's to decide on what's "proper" while discussing issues of faith? An atheist scholar, a Catholic theologian or someone else? Jesus did preach about hellfire, eternal punishment and torment and his teachings can be interpreted either or both ways. I think you were a bit hasty to conclude that the notion of hellfire was invented later. It is in the Old Testament that we first hear about "the lake of fire". I find the term "invented" somewhat objectionable in this context as well but that's based on my personal beliefs. However if you believe the "followers of Christ" invented things it is difficult to make any further claims regarding his teachings as everything he said was reported by the said followers. In any case Hell can be read and is still being read as a fiery pit in both the New and the Old Testament. Who's to judge what's the right interpretation? The very concept of "fire and brimstone" comes from the Old Testament.

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup.

From what I understand Jews generally do not believe in Hell as everlasting punishment but they do believe in the concept of a (painful) cleansing. A sort of a Purgatory, something in which Protestants do not believe. The Protestants do believe, however, in the everlasting Hell and here you hear both about the "separation from God" as the sole form of Hell and that it's a real fiery pit and even that Jesus is present during torment (Revelation). Pope John Paul II was sometimes blamed for corrupting the "original" idea of Hell with the "separation from God" teaching although the teaching itself is old. It is true that Catholic Church regards the separation from God the chief torment of Hell and the late Pope insisted on that but the Church never abandoned the idea of the real place of torment. The new Pope has reminded us recently that such place is very real. The same pope has also called limbo "only a theological hypothesis" raising a few uncomfortable issues. Catholicism also teaches that in addition to the fiery torment associated with Hell wretched souls also face the accidental punishment of having to endure their fate together with others. According to the Orthodox Church Hell is torment in the presence of God and especially because of the presence of God. It is the nature of sin that it writhes in agony in the presence of God while the saved souls bask in his glory. Jehova's witnesses from what I have heard believe in the separation from God as the sole form of Hell. I have made a lot of assertions here about other people's beliefs and someone please correct me if they see any unpardonable mistakes.

In Quran Hell is very real and fiery as well.

Dante was very meticulous in his description of Hell. There's no such level of graphic detail in the Bible or anywhere else but the idea to divide Hell in sections was certainly not his.

As far as being a calculated believer (because it's in your interest), it's something almost impossible to achieve as it entails forcing oneself to believe something we're not willing or ready to accept. In real life it amounts to paying lip service to the established religion. A convinced atheist is infinitely more honest and I think more likely to change his mind. I simply do not understand atheism as religion.

It's 3 AM. I'm crazy for not being in bed.

Good night.

someone who knows better, please correct me if i am wrong.

my understanding, and note, i fully admit that i am NOT a bible scholar by any means, but any description of hell as fire and brimstone etc is made in the bible not by God Himself or by Jesus but by man. The psalm you quote is an example.

as for "proper historical context," when i say that, i say that in much the same way i say, "when considering whether 43 was a good president, one must consider historical context." i mean, consider what was going on when the different parts of the bible were written, who wrote that part of the bible, and what the authors' intent might have been. consider also that the new testament didn't just magically appear as a whole book, but that it is a collection of books, and the "canon," if you will, of what is accepted to make up the NT was decided upon by a council of catholic leaders centuries after jesus died. consider also that besides the book of revelation that we read in the NT is only one of many many many apocalyptic stories (for lack of a better word) that were available to the early christians. consider also that there was NOT a cohesive viewpoint of what a christian should be in those early years before the catholic church came into power. remember that there were 12 apostles but the followers of only one became prominent and laid the seeds of the catholic church. does this mean that the other apostles, who very likely didn't teach exactly as paul (peter? aack, i forget whether twas peter or paul whom jesus said he would make the rock of his faith) did, had "wrong" viewpoints about jesus and his teachings? or does this mean that one disciple's teachings just somehow "won out" over the others? also, what does it mean that jesus, after he resurrected, showed himself to mary magdelene, and not the male disciples? does this mean that jesus intended for women to have a less subordinate role in the faith than later developed? because jesus was purposeful, and he must have been deliberate in choosign the women (please don't thing i believe there's much truth to the davinci code just bcs i say this, btw).

when i say historical context, i am merely saying, don't ever forget that the bible was not magically born by god's hand or that god himself created it. man did wrote the bible. and man, being man, had certain objectives and motives in writing it,a nd hey! there might possbly be mistakes in it. this doesn't take away from the fact that, if you are a christian, the bible is first and foremost in your faith, nor does it take away from jesus's teachings as they came out of his mouth, ro the lessons that god taught the chosen people. just don't forget that when st. what'shisface 9constantine? nope. augustine? eeghh...forgive me, i didn't go to a catholic school) who wrote all those rules against sex was a man, first and foremost, and therefore fallible, no matter how much he might have loved god.

okay, i'm rambling, too, but i can't use being up at 3:00 as my excuse cause it aint 3:00 right now. i did, however, sleep poorly the last several nights, and i still have funny tummy.

so there. blessed be, and amen!

[scrivener]

Re: What do you believe?

You have to marvel at the cold immorality of such people, who admit that their only motivation to do "good" is that they believe it was commanded from on-high and they'll get some punishment or reward (bribe) in some imaginary afterlife.

I'm not really sure where you're getting this. First, even if some kind of reward or command is a motivation, how can you be so cold as to insist it could be someone's ONLY motivation? If you believe that people can be good without that extrinsic motivation, how can you be so quick to accuse someone else of having none of that intrinsic motivation?

Second, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, there is no reward for good works. Good works can be seen as an atonement for less-than-stellar deeds, the natural expression of love for others, the testimony to one's own salvation by (undeserved) mercy, the logical outcome of a life well-lived, or the mandate assigned us all (believer or non-believer) to make the world better. The idea that doing good works on earth results in heavenly rewards later is not doctrinal. If some people have interpreted it that way for their own lives, know that it is not something handed down from some higher authority.

If I have done anything good in my life, I do not believe that any of it -- not the smallest fraction of it -- was because of some kind of command. I try to look out for people who need help because I admire my parents and that's what they always modeled. I try to love others because I have been the recipient of immeasurable love I can never repay. The good works, if any there be, are hopefully the fruit of a tree rooted in good soil; I do not think they are the dues paid for some kind of prize.

[CranBeree]

Re: What do you believe?

imteresting reading for those in question...

http://www.reasons.org/

[sinjin]

Re: What do you believe?

imteresting reading for those in question...

http://www.reasons.org/

Not really. Same old sales pitch. But I'm not "in question", am I?

[sinjin]

Re: What do you believe?

When confronted with death and finality, people can change their minds.

So you might just abandon your belief in God on your deathbed?

[CranBeree]

Re: What do you believe?

Not really. Same old sales pitch. But I'm not "in question", am I?

i don't really know if you are, and really i don't care.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: What do you believe?

So you might just abandon your belief in God on your deathbed?

From my own experience, I believe there's merit in what you say. Over the last couple of years, I watched several old loved ones live through the twilight of their lives. These people were devout in their faiths, but in the end, it just didn't matter anymore to all of them. They each died of cancer--I am talking about people in their 80s, and cancer rips them down slowly (in eras gone by, we would have celebrated their living fully and passing away of old age, but nowadays we get Hospice and a diagnosis). Prayer time, devotion time, they weren't irreverent, but...disinterested.

Quietly I have thought about this very subject. This is the first time I voice it.

[sinjin]

Re: What do you believe?

From my own experience, I believe there's merit in what you say. Over the last couple of years, I watched several old loved ones live through the twilight of their lives. These people were devout in their faiths, but in the end, it just didn't matter anymore to all of them. They each died of cancer--I am talking about people in their 80s, and cancer rips them down slowly (in eras gone by, we would have celebrated their living fully and passing away of old age, but nowadays we get Hospice and a diagnosis). Prayer time, devotion time, they weren't irreverent, but...disinterested.

Quietly I have thought about this very subject. This is the first time I voice it.

I have seen people faced with terminal illnesses become extremely angry at the God they've worshiped their whole lives. I guess an atheist would be spared this sense of bewilderment and betrayal.

[sinjin]

Re: What do you believe?

i don't really know if you are, and really i don't care.

Well then to be fair to those you do care about:

http://infidels.org/

[1stwahine]

Re: What do you believe?

So you might just abandon your belief in God on your deathbed?

I have seen people faced with terminal illnesses become extremely angry at the God they've worshiped their whole lives. I guess an atheist would be spared this sense of bewilderment and betrayal.

I've seen and been on my death bed...I survived.

My late husband died of Lou Gerigh's (ALS) at the age of 48. He said no more medications. He wanted to be with God in Heaven. When it was time for him to go, he smile and looked at the door. I could feel the presence of the Lord. My children and I said our goodbyes. My husband died with a beautiful smile on his face.

My Ohana lost a three month old baby to SIDS last year. We were blessed for the little time we had him. My 82 year-old MAMA had open heart surgery. As they wheeled her away, I saw her glow from head to toe. I told her the Lord was with her. She survived and again went through another major operation the other week and survived again.

I faced many trials and tribulations in Life. Without my faith in the God I believe in ~ I would be nothing. Threads like these only brings ugliness. For those who don't BELIEVE ~ it's your choice. For those who do ~ Continue to SHOUT for The Glory of God is AWESOME!!

We are his Shepard's!

In Christ,

Auntie Lynn

[sinjin]

Re: What do you believe?

I've seen and been on my death bed...I survived.

My late husband died of Lou Gerigh's (ALS) at the age of 48. He said no more medications. He wanted to be with God in Heaven. When it was time for him to go, he smile and looked at he door. I could feel the presence of the Lord. My children and I said our goodbyes. My husband died with a beautiful smile on his face.

My Ohana lost a three month old baby to SIDS last year. We were blessed for the little time we had him. My 82 year-old MAMA had open heart surgery. As they wheeled her away, I saw her glow from head to toe. I told her the Lord was with her. She survived and again went through another major operation the other week and survived again.

I faced many trials and tribulations in Life. Without my faith in the God I believe in ~ I would be nothing. Threads like these only brings ugliness. For those who don't BELIEVE ~ it's your choice. For those who do ~ Continue to SHOUT for The Glory of God is AWESOME!!

We are his Shepard's!

In Christ,

Auntie Lynn

I care not what makes a person good if they are good. I am not here to try to shake anyone's faith or bring more ugliness into this world. You know I am very fond of you Auntie and mean no disrespect. I would only request that you ask your fellow believers not to "SHOUT" at me or my children.

[CranBeree]

Re: What do you believe?

Well then to be fair to those you do care about:

http://infidels.org/

i won't bother to click on the link you provided, because i really don't care. my faith my MY faith and it something i choose to believe in. if you choose to have your own faith then you're entitled to that also. end of story.

[1stwahine]

Re: What do you believe?

I care not what makes a person good if they are good. I am not here to try to shake anyone's faith or bring more ugliness into this world. You know I am very fond of you Auntie and mean no disrespect. I would only request that you ask your fellow believers not to "SHOUT" at me or my children.

heheheh...

You made me laugh.

Of course I respect everyone and what they BELIEVE in. As a Christian, I BELIEVE in "Shouting" for the Love I have for my Lord and Savior. However, I also believe in 'NOT' shoving my beliefs unto anyone.

Religion is a topic that will always be "HOT!"

We must keep it civil.
I like you too Sinjin!

Auntie Lynn

[greentara]

Re: What do you believe?

I believe in Karma being the law of moral causation. The theory of Karma is a fundamental doctrine in Buddhism. I also believe in re-incarnation, also a fundamental belief in Buddhism

I spent the entire 70’ searching for the meaning of religion/life. I became immersed in religion and culture when I was in college. One thing I did realize is that religion is culture specific in its origins. It is also political, because in many cases it morphs into what ever the powers that be want it to become to control the population.

For ME the only religion that makes sense and does not proselytize (pet peeve) is Buddhism. The very essence of the form of Buddhism I practice is compassion, compassion, compassion. I believe that life is sacred and that means all life. I also believe that the earth is sacred and should be honored by taking care not to leave huge footprints as we walk on it.

As far as what happens after death ~ we return to work on all of the issues we have that are preventing us from being fully enlightened beings. We continue on the karmic wheel until we become the Buddha and have no need to return to this world of suffering and lessons to learn. The Karma we produce in this life time will stay with our sprit to be worked out in many different lives.

For me the biggest turn off in religion are the religions that are so dogmatic in their belief system that they try to convert the rest of the world by making laws that force people to live by their rules. Religion is extremely personal that is why I take issue with most organized religions. Showing empathy for all living things eliminates the desire to destroy life.


So “what ever gets you through the night is all right” in my book when it comes to religion ~ just don’t try to convince me that hell fire and brimstone is what “God” created.