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Thread: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

  1. #1
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    Default Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    I'm sure Rep. Neil Abercrombie is steamed to find out the results of the Native Hawaiian bill. While he was thanking GOPers on the floor, they trashed it. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of Neil on this one. I feel for the guy!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Someone want to give Rep. Abercrombie a hand removing those knives from his back? "Et tu, Boehner?"

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Someone want to give Rep. Abercrombie a hand removing those knives from his back? "Et tu, Boehner?"
    You are so right! What the pho? Whatever happened to truth? Oh wait, this is Congress.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    I really need to know what it is about Hawaiians that makes them inferior?

    If they are not inferior, then why do they need special programs?

    If you want to own a home, work hard, and buy a home. Which part of that is the confusing part?

    There is no doubt that I am confused on the special needs issue.
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    I really need to know what it is about Hawaiians that makes them inferior?

    If they are not inferior, then why do they need special programs?

    If you want to own a home, work hard, and buy a home. Which part of that is the confusing part?

    There is no doubt that I am confused on the special needs issue.
    Don't mistake your ignorance for confusion, timothy.

    The republicans are hypocrites for claiming that special legal privileges for Native Hawaiians are unconstitutional. The whole damn U.S. annexation of Hawaii was unconstitutional.The Newlands Resolution, the illegal act which "provided" for the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands to the United States and signed by a corrupt U.S. President was itself unconstitutional. I challenge anyone to cite the provision within the framework of the United States Constitution that enables the U.S. government to annex a foreign territory (which Hawaii was at the time) to the United States by joint resolution.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Even at the time, the "overthrow" and the annexation were hot-button issues. More so today. There is what is legal, and what is right.
    Burl Burlingame
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by buzz1941 View Post
    Even at the time, the "overthrow" and the annexation were hot-button issues. More so today. There is what is legal, and what is right.
    Both the overthrow and annexation were neither legal nor right.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Sooooo basically you are saying that two wrongs make a right? Granted the SCOTUS has reversed itself in the past, but as it stands precedent argues against it.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    Sooooo basically you are saying that two wrongs make a right? Granted the SCOTUS has reversed itself in the past, but as it stands precedent argues against it.
    What precedent are you referring to?

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Whooops! Politics! Backstroke.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    In my neighborhood, there are 32 homes. Hawaiians own around 22 of the homes. When the Bishop sold us the land 3 years ago, all of my neighbors were able to buy the land. In fact, a couple of my neighbors helped each other to make sure everybody got to buy. It was terrific.

    I'm not talking about history of 120 years ago. My question is concerning the now, and the today issues. Why does Abercrombie think Hawaiians can't buy a house for themselves? If somebody treated me like a moron, or presumed that I was somehow unable to compete in the real world, I would be a little ticked off.

    Hawaiians should be furious with Abercrombie because he presumes that they are somehow unable to fend for themselves. By my experience, and seeing my neighbors, I would tell you that the Hawaiians in South Kona have no problem making a go of their lives. They own their homes. They work as hard, or harder, than I do. They own good looking trucks. Some have boats. And motorcycles. They throw terrific parties, full of good food, and lots of love.

    Maybe Abercrombie is thinking of some other Hawaiians that I have never met. Cuz the ones I know and love are hard working mofo's just like me. Ain't no difference whatsoever, and believe me, our skin color don't matter.
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    This thread has languished for some reason.

    I guess Abercrombie is the ONLY person in the State of Hawaii who thinks Hawaiians can't cut the mustard. But I'd have thunk that lot's of folks would get on this thread and try to prove why Hawaiians can't make it on their own.

    I must say that I am pleased. Cuz I have always thought Abercrombie was a duncecap, and a giant enemy of the Hawaiians due to his condescending opinion of them. I can tell you from experience that Hawaiians are just as capable, moreso in some things, as anybody else I know.
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    What precedent are you referring to?
    Sorry it was an indirect reference to Rice v Cayetano and its collective implications toward OHA. I don't know exactly when the push for tribal status began (can anyone enlighten me?). I don't remember hearing about it till after Rice, which would make attempting to gain tribal status somewhat disingenuous since the movement (sovereignty) didn't try to portray itself as a tribe. How can it be a tribe now? Then there's the possibility of the recent Kamehameha Schools case moving to the SCOTUS, although even assuming it gets cert the Court has changed composition lately and certainly isn't the Court that heard Rice.

    I believe that there is weight and validity behind the constitutional challenge that resulted from Rice, and that the questions raised regarding Kamehameha's admissions policy have merit. Court decisions aside, in a country where, at least on paper, racial discrimination is prohibited is it desirable to allow exceptions based on historic deprivation/discrimination?

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    Sorry it was an indirect reference to Rice v Cayetano and its collective implications toward OHA. I don't know exactly when the push for tribal status began (can anyone enlighten me?). I don't remember hearing about it till after Rice, which would make attempting to gain tribal status somewhat disingenuous since the movement (sovereignty) didn't try to portray itself as a tribe. How can it be a tribe now?
    It started in 2000 with the introduction of the Akaka bill in response to the numerous attacks on Native Hawaiian programs. I know the good Senator means well but the bill fails to make light of the fact that the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands was ILLEGAL. There is no provision in the U.S. constitution or any principle in international law which could have provided a proper legal basis for the U.S. to acquire the Hawaiian Islands as a territory by joint resolution. I think it also important for people to know that the statehood vote was a sham attempting to hide the historical illegality that began in 1893, with full U.S. complicity.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    It started in 2000 with the introduction of the Akaka bill in response to the numerous attacks on Native Hawaiian programs. I know the good Senator means well but the bill fails to make light of the fact that the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands was ILLEGAL. There is no provision in the U.S. constitution or any principle in international law which could have provided a proper legal basis for the U.S. to acquire the Hawaiian Islands as a territory by joint resolution. I think it also important for people to know that the statehood vote was a sham attempting to hide the historical illegality that began in 1893, with full U.S. complicity.
    If you can't change the past, why not support the future? Learn from the mistakes our leaders made in the past and apply it to your wants for the future. On this Kuhio day, remember that even Prince Jonah eventually supported the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands.
    Last edited by alohabear; March 26th, 2007 at 09:34 AM.
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    Cool Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    On this Kuhio day, remember that even Prince Jonah eventually supported the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands.
    Really?! Wow, you learn something new every day. Was this before or after he served a year in prison for leading a revolution to restore Queen Lili‘uokalani to power in 1895?

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Really?! Wow, you learn something new every day. Was this before or after he served a year in prison for leading a revolution to restore Queen Lili‘uokalani to power in 1895?
    Two years after his release he came to view annexation by the US as preferable to the Republic. He later became an Republican and the Hawaiian rep. to Congress


    This is from the book Hawaii: the Royal Legacy by Allen Seiden
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    If you can't change the past, why not support the future? Learn from the mistakes our leaders made in the past and apply it to your wants for the future.
    This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future". I think it is important for us to guard the torch of truth and make sure that it is never extinguished.We owe that much to both our Kupuna and our Keiki. Hawaii was ILLEGALLY annexed to the U.S. I think it is important for Hawaiians such as myself to expose the hypocrisy of the U.S. government when the constitutionality of Hawaiian programs are put under the microscope of the U.S judicial system. I'd love for the U.S. Supreme Court to have to rule on the constitutionality of Hawaii's annexation to the U.S.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    Two years after his release he came to view annexation by the US as preferable to the Republic. He later became an Republican and the Hawaiian rep. to Congress


    This is from the book Hawaii: the Royal Legacy by Allen Seiden
    Kuhio continued to fight for Hawaiian Independence untill he became frustrated with the ineffectiveness of the Independent Home Rule Party. Realizing he could do more for his people as a Republican delegate, that is the role he chose. Had there been other options, he would not have been warm to annexation.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future". I think it is important for us to guard the torch of truth and make sure that it is never extinguished.We owe that much to both our Kupuna and our Keiki. Hawaii was ILLEGALLY annexed to the U.S. I think it is important for Hawaiians such as myself to expose the hypocrisy of the U.S. government when the constitutionality of Hawaiian programs are put under the microscope of the U.S judicial system. I'd love for the U.S. Supreme Court to have to rule on the constitutionality of Hawaii's annexation to the U.S.
    Kinda like my Japanese people that was thrown in camps during WWII. More U.S. government hypocrisy. Germans weren't put in camps, and had land taken away. My grandfather almost went just because he was a leader in the church.
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Never thought I'd quote myself....
    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    Court decisions aside, in a country where, at least on paper, racial discrimination is prohibited is it desirable to allow exceptions based on historic deprivation/discrimination?
    Anyone care to field this? It's really easy to talk about what is wrong in the past. Figuring out what is right for the future is far more interesting though.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    This comment reminds me of a line from Ziggy Marley's "Tomorrow People" which notes "If you don't know your past, you don't know your future".
    BTW, that rough notion isn't exactly original with Ziggy Marley. Try George Santayana.

    But in this case, try Orwell: "He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past."
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    It's been 10 or more posts in a row, and not one person is trying to explain or justify why Hawaiians simply can't compete in the modern world and therefore need specialized entitlement programs, such as those that the good representative is trying to pass.

    I'm starting to think that Mr. Abercrombie is the ONLY man in Hawaii who thinks Hawaiians are woefully incapable of making it on their own merit. How does this guy continue to get elected? How come Hawaiians do not scream at him for assuming that they simply can't cut it?

    And then there are the idiots who say that if you give land to Hawaiians, they will just sell it off to the malahini. Well that's not the truth either. Not a single Hawaiian in South Kona is selling their house or land.

    Maybe it's me, and I'm just not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps Abercrombie is correct, and Hawaiians are truly not capable. In order to be a good liberal, it is essential to identify with inferiority at some level. But how many people would WANT to have the label of inability thrust upon them?

    It's a crazy world.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    I don't think that it's because Abercrombie believes Hawaiians are not capable. In my converstaions with him, it's because he's trying to make good a historic wrong and give Hawaiians a level playing field. He believes he's doing the Right Thing.

    It boils down to legalisms. Are Hawaiians to be a separate racial, cultural and governmental community, like the Many Tribes, or an assimilated ethnic/racial group, like blacks or Irish or Italians or Japanese or whoever?
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Tim, just a question out of pure curiosity. Do you think Native Americans deserve special rights and recognition or do you think it should be a level playing field with them as well?

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