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Thread: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Racist remarks -- by anybody -- do absolutely nothing to further anyone's cause and have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.

    Oh give me a friggin break. There was nothing racist about TNL's remarks.

  2. #127

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    If we agree that the kanaka maoli were the first settlers of Hawai'i, then the definition of "indigenous people" applies to them:

    Indigenous Peoples are concerned with preserving land, protecting language and promoting culture. Some Indigenous Peoples strive to preserve traditional ways of life, while others seek greater participation in the current state structures. Like all cultures and civilizations, Indigenous Peoples are always adjusting and adapting to changes in the world. Indigenous Peoples recognize their common plight and work for their self-determination; based on their respect for the earth.

    ...all Indigenous Peoples have one thing in common - they all share a history of injustice. Indigenous Peoples have been killed, tortured and enslaved. In many cases, they have been the victims of genocide. They have been denied the right to participate in governing processes of the current state systems. Conquest and colonization have attempted to steal their dignity and identity as indigenous peoples, as well as the fundamental right of self-determination.
    This is the definition used by the United Nations:
    As defined by the United Nations Special Rapporteur to the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities, Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are

    those which having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal systems.

    (Martinez-Cobo, 1984)
    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  3. #128
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    Wink Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    When you use a phrase like TuNnL's unfortunate words quoted above, it's as racist as saying "all Hawaiians (insert behavior or belief here.)"
    Leo, as much as I like you and agree with you on many things, I must correct your inaccurate statement that the phrase I used was racist (though it has been used that way in pidgin English which I rarely employ). Hawaiian is not necessarily a racial term either, though it can refer to a member of the kanaka maoli race.

    FYI: Haole, in the Hawaiian language, means "foreign" or "foreigner"; it can be used in reference to people, plants, and animals. -- Wikipedia


    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Racist remarks -- by anybody ... have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.
    I’m assuming also that LikaNui is also equating my use of the word haole with racism. I’m glad I could educate two people today.

    Mahalo to you both for sharing your mana‘o, however I must take offense at LikaNui’s attempt to tell me what words in ‘ōlelo Hawai‘i I am allowed to use on hawaiithreads.com. If you feel that is your kuleana, I am sure Ryan would be amicable to giving you an evaluation as to your competency as a moderator on this site.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  4. #129
    waioli kai Guest

    Default "Damned homeless and renter Hawai'ians..." =tkona , Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    .
    --- " ..... how come some Hawaiians don't have any (land) ?

    "Just like reservations. You got some Indians that own, and some that don't.
    How did the
    (Hawai'ian) renters get to a point where they don't own (land and house)?" --- timkona;139688

    The "public" utility corporations do not rent their properties from the counties of Hawaii. All other private landowners but for churches and perhaps non-profits do pay rent to the counties of Hawaii. One need only fail to pay rent (ie, property taxes) on one's "private" property in Hawaii or any other state and one will find out who really owns the property.
    Last edited by waioli kai; April 8th, 2007 at 11:28 PM.

  5. #130
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    This is NOT exclusively directed at TuNnl, but at the discussion in general

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Leo, as much as I like you and agree with you on many things, I must correct your inaccurate statement that the phrase I used was racist (though it has been used that way in pidgin English which I rarely employ). Hawaiian is not necessarily a racial term either, though it can refer to a member of the kanaka maoli race.
    (bold added)

    Oh you stuck your foot in the bear trap this time. I guess we really know what this is all about now. Race as a class within human subdivisions is of itself anathema to discussion of overall human equality vs. the inferiority/superiority of certain genetic lineages. Time and again it has been proven that on a genetic level humans are humans, no matter where their ancestors happened to alight in the roulette wheel of global settlement. Just what makes you think that Kanaka Maoli are all one lineage (race in your benighted parlance) anyway? Prove it if you think that's the case.

    Humans have been conquering humans for as long as humans have been around. What is missing in this dialog is a rationale for why the US should fly in the face of a multiple millenia of precedents and give back what was taken (other than "it was wrong", or "the UN says so", or "the [powerless] World Court says so".... boohoo, really). It's not as if a group of people's (not race mind you) ancestral homelands have not been restored before, however it is rare indeed that it has been done by the conquering country. The British Colonies are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head, but in most cases restored homelands result from the conquered power being conquered by another conquering power. Even then the reacquisition of the homeland usually comes with strings attached (do you plan on protesting that too?).

    In a sad way it comforts me that the term 'haole' is more a term of raging xenophobia than racism. However, you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't wandering toward racism when it is more and more often applied to people of caucasian (another ridiculously broad term, but will suit my purposes here) descent. Clean up your arguments and get with the picture. The Kanaka Maoli are asking for a lot of progressiveness on the part of the US, and behaving like xenophobes and racists doesn't do much to help your argument.

    The treaties and apology keep on being referenced. Read them. The treaties (as I stated before) are fluff. They promise nothing besides a favorable trading relationship. Look up "friendship" in the language of international diplomacy and you'll see how often that means "until your back is turned". As for the apology? It's non-binding and promises nothing. Heck we broke our own laws and and we said we were sorry, "Oops! Next time we'll get better legal counsel so we can conquer legitimately instead!".

    There have been promises made in the past, those promises should be observed faithfully. Do not assume that some trade treaties and a toothless apology a good argument make. Being belligerent and racist damages the chances of the Kanaka Maoli favorably influencing the only entity who can make your wish come true (not the UN, not the World Court, not some moldy old trade treaties, not a toothless apology), the United States of America. Like it or not, your (and mine too) overlord.

    Racism and racist laws stink. How you people can sleep at night when you spend all day lying to yourself and everyone else is beyond me.
    Last edited by Deep Thought; April 9th, 2007 at 12:02 AM. Reason: clarification

  6. #131
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    This is NOT exclusively directed at TuNnl, but at the discussion in general


    (bold added)


    Humans have been conquering humans for as long as humans have been around. What is missing in this dialog is a rationale for why the US should fly in the face of a multiple millenia of precedents and give back what was taken (other than "it was wrong", or "the UN says so", or "the [powerless] World Court says so".... boohoo, really). It's not as if a group of people's (not race mind you) ancestral homelands have not been restored before, however it is rare indeed that it has been done by the conquering country. The British Colonies are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head, but in most cases restored homelands result from the conquered power being conquered by another conquering power. Even then the reacquisition of the homeland usually comes with strings attached (do you plan on protesting that too?).
    The issue at hand (the original topic of the thread) was a bill introduced by Congressman Abercrombie that would help Native Hawaiians buy homes on designated Hawaiian homelands.The US government is supposed to guided by the Constitution. I find it extremely hypocritical that some feel the need to challenge the constitutionality of Hawaiian programs without acknowledging the fact the the annexation of Hawai'i was unconstitutional. I challenged any of you to find the provision within the framework of the US constitution that provides the US government to annex a foreign territory by joint resolution. None of you have provided me the answer.These programs are the United States comeuppance for the theft of a once sovereign kingdom.

    Those of you who followed Tim's lead should be embarrassed for getting caught in his whirlwind of ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    In a sad way it comforts me that the term 'haole' is more a term of raging xenophobia than racism. However, you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't wandering toward racism when it is more and more often applied to people of caucasian (another ridiculously broad term, but will suit my purposes here) descent. Clean up your arguments and get with the picture. The Kanaka Maoli are asking for a lot of progressiveness on the part of the US, and behaving like xenophobes and racists doesn't do much to help your argument.
    That's your own perception based on ignorance. Hawaiians weren't racist. The term was used to describe a foreign people, a people that just so happened to be white. Aunty Mary Kawena Pukui defined haole as white, foreign. Perhaps you should clean up your own arguments before you tell others to get with the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    The treaties and apology keep on being referenced. Read them. The treaties (as I stated before) are fluff. They promise nothing besides a favorable trading relationship. Look up "friendship" in the language of international diplomacy and you'll see how often that means "until your back is turned". As for the apology? It's non-binding and promises nothing. Heck we broke our own laws and and we said we were sorry, "Oops! Next time we'll get better legal counsel so we can conquer legitimately instead!".

    There have been promises made in the past, those promises should be observed faithfully. Do not assume that some trade treaties and a toothless apology a good argument make.
    What does any of this have to do with the original topic of the thread? We are well aware of the hypocrisy of the US government but thanks for clarifying our point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post

    Being belligerent and racist damages the chances of the Kanaka Maoli favorably influencing the only entity who can make your wish come true (not the UN, not the World Court, not some moldy old trade treaties, not a toothless apology), the United States of America. Like it or not, your (and mine too) overlord.
    Pffft...how charlantanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Thought View Post
    Racism and racist laws stink. How you people can sleep at night when you spend all day lying to yourself and everyone else is beyond me.
    I sleep just fine. You should ask yourself that question. You're the one advocating for the removal of Hawaiian programs.These programs are already in place.

  7. #132

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    If you want a reason why the Native Hawaiian Housing bill should be continued, all you need to do is look in today's Pacific Business News for a story about how the major subprime lenders (the mortgage companies that loan money to people who have low net worth and can't get conventional mortgages) have done a booming business both with the kanaka maoli and Native American populations.

    Lenders reported $21 billion in loans to Native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders in 2005, up almost a fifth from the previous year and part of a nationwide trend of heightened lending to Native Americans, much of at subprime rates that are currently getting attention as borrowers fall behind in payments.

    The two biggest lenders to Native Hawaiian were the two biggest Mainland mortgage lenders with major operations in Hawaii, Countrywide Home Loans of Pasadena, Calif., and Wells Fargo Bank of San Francisco:

    Countrywide, which recently announced that 19 percent of its subprime mortgages are delinquent, lent $3.2 billion to Native Hawaiians in 2005, up 70 percent from the year before.
    This is the original story in Indian Country Today that prompted the story in the PBN.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  8. #133
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Please excuse the grammatical errors noted in my previous post.

    Just a point of clarification... I am not anti-american. I am American by birth, my father was a sailor in the U.S. Navy, I work in government. That fact however, does not mean I can't expose the hypocrisy of my government in dealing with issues such as the constitutionality of programs that benefit Native hawaiians. Anybody with an understanding of the history of these islands would know why these programs were created.

  9. #134

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Leo, as much as I like you and agree with you on many things, I must correct your inaccurate statement that the phrase I used was racist (though it has been used that way in pidgin English which I rarely employ). Hawaiian is not necessarily a racial term either, though it can refer to a member of the kanaka maoli race.
    FYI: Haole, in the Hawaiian language, means "foreign" or "foreigner"; it can be used in reference to people, plants, and animals. -- Wikipedia
    TuNnL, thank you for responding to this aspect of the discussion - I was hoping you would come back in with a comment, rather than leaving it for the rest of us to debate your meaning.

    Despite my earlier comment:
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    It's not necessary, in this case, to take this thread into one of the many discussions of the etymology of the term "haole" - the context was clear.
    - if you say that you did not mean "haole" to mean specifically "white people," I ought to take your word for it. But given the context of the discussion, as well as the baggage attached to the word, and that fact that you are an educated and perceptive individual, I don't believe you can claim to be ignorant that the majority of readers would attach the racial characteristic that is commonly associated with the word.

    Despite its debatable etymology, to the majority of people in and associated with Hawai`i in any fashion, "haole" = "white," and not a more generic "foreigner." I believe you knew that when you used the word in this thread. And as I mentioned before, I felt that your use of the word "haole," along with the two words preceding it, weakened your stance and was a poor phrase to use.

    But that's just my take on it. I wasn't personally offended, just uncomfortable with having it be part of your argument, an argument that comes from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement.

  10. #135
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Originally posted by Waioli Kai:
    "Lika Nui, why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology"

    To which I replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Okay, you -- who keeps asking for citations -- are hereby challenged to find even one single instance where I have EVER done what you're falsely accusing me of.
    Are you humane and/or intelligent enough to apolgize, or will you simply prove beyond doubt that you are nothing more than an internet 'troll'?
    Having heard no answer from Waioli Kai (as expected), it's quite clear that they lied and that a troll is among us.
    Gee. What a surprise.

    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  11. #136
    waioli kai Guest

    Default Well dung party of one

    .
    --Originally posted by wkai:
    "Lika Nui, why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology"

    To which I replied:

    Having heard no answer from Waioli Kai, as expected, it's quite clear that they lied and that a troll is among us. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. -- LikaNui

    That's your story and your stuck to it: like a dung fly stuck to something no other creature finds palatable, yet the fly takes comfort in his delusion that he has company and is not feasting alone. All other creatures see a dung pile with fly stuck to it admiring his own shadow.
    Last edited by waioli kai; April 10th, 2007 at 08:58 PM.

  12. #137
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    Default Re: Waioli kai, dung party of one

    Quote Originally Posted by waioli kai View Post
    That's your story and your stuck to it
    Yes, that is my signature line, not part of my post... which you conveniently forgot to answer, silly troll.


    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  13. #138
    waioli kai Guest

    Default Re: Waioli kai, dung party of one

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Yes, that is my signature line, not part of my post... which you conveniently forgot to answer, silly troll.
    And you were right to badger me for having written and posted what I directed at you: that is "...why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology".
    I should not have directed such remarks at you. Having unexcusably, belatedly and only now reviewed those series of postings wherein I carelessly and wrongfully attributed to you that which I had meant for another, I do sincerely apologize. First I apologize for having mistakenly attributed to you that which was most certainly not from you; secondly, I apologize for having taken so long to attempt to rectify my mistake; thirdly, I apologize for the disparaging words which I heaped on you as a result of that for which my second apology is offered; and, though not to mean lastly, I apologize to everyone who, as yourself, were/are rightfully offended by my careless indiscretion in the matter. I hope that, my apologies accepted, some earned measure of mutual respect can be forthcoming although, between the two of us, I have thusly created the heavier burden to bear for a while.

  14. #139

    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Thank you, WK.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Hmmm, most of the time I am a pretty dedicated lurker but I feel like I came in on the middle of this one.

    Are you guys trying to set a record for flame wars?

    I always thought that the meaning of 'haole' was taken from context. I kinda liked it when she said "E haole boy, come more close.".

    Live and learn.

  16. #141
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Very nicely written apology, Waioli Kai.
    Apology accepted.
    I'll assume it was meant sincerely and not sarcastically, unless proven otherwise.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  17. #142
    waioli kai Guest

    Default LikaNui, Mahalo for

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Very nicely written apology, Waioli Kai.
    Apology accepted.
    I'll assume it was meant sincerely and not sarcastically, unless proven otherwise.
    Mahalo. Yes on sincerity; no on sarcasm...as for "until proven otherwise", I do not wish to risk making a fool of myself so near in time to my most recent successful attempt, at your expense initially, by my now saying that I will never do it again, but I suspect this recent spanking will serve my memory well enough to at least retard the speed with which I dig a pit for myself to fall into headlong only to discover that I am absolutely unable to extract myself from it without appealing to him and/or them onto whom I had shoveled that which left undisturbed would otherwise have easily been traversed by anyone.
    Last edited by waioli kai; April 11th, 2007 at 01:24 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar

  18. #143
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Amazing...there is a god after all

  19. #144
    waioli kai Guest

    Default the Dough Attorney$ vs. KS , in Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Today sometime , if not already, the U.S. Supreme Court is supposed to release its decision about whether or not it will hear the (its all about Dough$ attorneys wanting to suck money out of KS to pay the fees their millionaire backers would otherwise have to pay the Dough attorneys*) Dough attorneys' Doe vs. KS case. Whether justUS or Justice will prevail seems about as probable as a flip of a coin. Wonder if the Court will tell how the Justice's votes stacked up?

    * What educational facilities and services could KS have been otherwise able to provide the people whom they serve had they not been forced to shell out $$ to defend their good name and mission against the malicious attacks of the Dough Attorney$ ?

  20. #145

    Default Re: Waioli kai, dung party of one

    Quote Originally Posted by waioli kai View Post
    And you were right to badger me for having written and posted what I directed at you: that is "...why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology".
    I should not have directed such remarks at you. Having unexcusably, belatedly and only now reviewed those series of postings wherein I carelessly and wrongfully attributed to you that which I had meant for another, I do sincerely apologize. First I apologize for having mistakenly attributed to you that which was most certainly not from you; secondly, I apologize for having taken so long to attempt to rectify my mistake; thirdly, I apologize for the disparaging words which I heaped on you as a result of that for which my second apology is offered; and, though not to mean lastly, I apologize to everyone who, as yourself, were/are rightfully offended by my careless indiscretion in the matter. I hope that, my apologies accepted, some earned measure of mutual respect can be forthcoming although, between the two of us, I have thusly created the heavier burden to bear for a while.
    this is a lovely apology to read. Quite a feast of sentences. Good one, Waioli Kai!

    pax

  21. #146
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    This article is an interesting read.
    UNDER THE OLD REGIME, the chiefs owned all the land and allowed the people their kuleanas. But anyone could be thrown out at any time if the chief took a dislike to him or if he wasn't producing enough tax.

    Under the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act, the government still owns the land, the people still pay the tax, and the children are thrown off the land if they don't have enough Hawaiian blood.
    Now, it is bad enough that Hawaiian homesteaders are denied true ownership of their land. What is worse is the psychological effect of telling a race of people that they are not competent to own land, that they cannot be trusted to value it properly, and that they must be taken care of by the government.

    This is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you treat people as inferior, then you will succeed in convincing them that they are inferior.
    "Ua mau ke ea o ka 'aina I ka pono" was the motto of the Hawaiian Kingdom. Today most politicians would have us believe that the life of the people is preserved in government handouts.

    Let me propose another motto, as true today as it would have been 2,000 years ago: Seek ye first a society of free men and its economic opportunity and all things shall be added unto you.
    Interesting points. You can agree or disagree.


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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by alohabear View Post
    This article is an interesting read.Interesting points. You can agree or disagree.


    Alohabear

    Hawaii Reporter? Ken Conklin. Are you a comedian?
    Last edited by Keanu; April 16th, 2007 at 07:21 PM.

  23. #148
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    Hawaii Reporter? Ken Conklin. Are you a comedian?
    No, they really don't say anything negative....just their views. Read it .It might give you some answers for Tim.
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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Funny how I never saw Conklin's name in the article. Why bring him up?

    I think it's funny when you hear a Hawaiian talk about how Hawaiian's will just sell off their land, and then they have nothing. I have a much higher opinion of their ability than that.

    Pressing Keanu for an answer to my original question is not very nice. There is no answer, which is why he won't come up with anything. He painted himself into an impossible corner.

    Incidentally, the right, honorable Mr. Abercrombie chose not to answer also.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

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    Default Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Funny how I never saw Conklin's name in the article. Why bring him up?
    His crap was linked in another thread by haoleboy. Regardless, birds of a feather flock together.

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Pressing Keanu for an answer to my original question is not very nice. There is no answer, which is why he won't come up with anything. He painted himself into an impossible corner.
    I already stated that I don't share your views. You made a presumption in your intial comments. I told you I was going to respond to your thoughts on what you'd do with entities such as DHHL and the Kamehameha Schools, entities that are already up and running.I've been looking at various data from various sources...I just neeed to compile the data and summarize. It's not a real big priority for me...when it's done I will message you.

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Incidentally, the right, honorable Mr. Abercrombie chose not to answer also.

    Having an understanding of the way government works, I'd be inclined to say that your question (presumption) didn't warrant an answer from the Congressman. Your letter is probably on file under "crazy person" somewhere in his office.

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