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  • #61
    Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

    Kam Schools should eliminate the race policy, and start teaching the children of Hawaii, which of course can include any race. I believe the Princess said something about the poor also. (correct me if I'm wrong)

    HHL is clearly a violation of the Federal Fair Housing Laws. I would choose to give the land to the poor folks again, of any race. A bureaucracy in Hawaii as bloated as HHL would be impossible to abolish without some serious sacrifices on the part of many folks. But don't let my sympathy for the poor fool you into believing that I am a liberal in any way. jk

    Economic criteria is one way to play the race card. If Mr. Abercrombie's position regarding Hawaiian's inability to compete is in fact a correct assumption, then it seems to me that the poor folks being helped could possibly comprise many Hawaiians, and their mixed bag progeny, without the sticky question of blood quantum.

    Keanu, your civility in this discussion is greatly appreciated. And now that I have answered those 2 crucial questions, would you please help me to understand Mr. Abercrombie's position a little better.
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    • #62
      Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

      Originally posted by Keanu View Post
      You haven't answered my question. What would YOU propose be done with all the land currently under the jurisdiction of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands
      Not sure about the mechanics, but if it were transferred to the control of a Native Hawaiian charitable corporation/institution of some sort then at least it would be actually under Hawaiian control. If it's Hawaiian lands, shouldn't Hawaiians control it?
      Originally posted by Keanu View Post
      and what would YOU propose be done with the Kamehameha Schools admission policy?
      Abolish tuition fees entirely and make every student a scholarship student. The nice thing about charity is that you can give it to whoever you damned well feel like. Problems only arise when services are charged for since then a service is being provided that some people are not ALLOWED to pay for. As long as you're giving it away the discretion as to whom you give it to is largely up to you. KS is eminently well provided monetarily to do this, and with the really bad trustees out KS should be able to continue doing so ad infinitum.
      Last edited by Deep Thought; March 31, 2007, 10:40 AM. Reason: extra comments

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      • #63
        Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

        Originally posted by timkona View Post
        I'm not much of a racist, as I stated already. So if you want to use race as a factor in some form of separation, choice, or entitlement decision, then I'm simply not for it.

        Kam School
        HHL
        Affirmative Action
        Japanese Chamber of Commerce (or any other race for that matter)
        Black Congressional Caucus
        (There are a kajillion examples of this in America)

        If you turn it around, and insert the word White, or Caucasian, it becomes instantly offensive to many people. I would disagree with that also. Therein lies the fundamental rub with me.

        If we separate society based on criteria as whimsical as the color of one's skin, or the pedigree of somebody's mother and father, then how far are we from Hitler's version of achieving eugenic perfection?

        I can sympathize with folks who confuse cultural pride and identity with the conflicting notion of egotistical expectations of entitlement. And I hold no false hope of changing anybody's mind on racism, most especially those steeped in the traditions of such vile behavior.

        When the sting of racism touches my life, as it sometimes can in Hawaii, I simply brush it off, while inside my heart breaks just a little in sympathy for the hopelessly ignorant.
        Kamehameha was Hawaiian, not Chinese so I would appreciate it very much if you refer to the Schools that bears his name as “Kamehameha” rather than “Kam”.

        Now, I have to admit that I am usually a good judge of character. While I believe you may be an arrogant, obnoxious, and abrassive individual, I do not believe you are racist. You are however, misguided on these issues.

        I am preparing my rebuttal and will include the answer you seek therein.

        Once I gather my backround information, I will respond.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

          Originally posted by Deep Thought View Post
          Not sure about the mechanics, but if it were transferred to the control of a Native Hawaiian charitable corporation/institution of some sort then at least it would be actually under Hawaiian control. If it's Hawaiian lands, shouldn't Hawaiians control it?
          This is actually a good suggestion but one that isn't feasible without both State Legislative and U.S Congressional help.


          Originally posted by Deep Thought View Post
          Abolish tuition fees entirely and make every student a scholarship student. The nice thing about charity is that you can give it to whoever you damned well feel like. Problems only arise when services are charged for since then a service is being provided that some people are not ALLOWED to pay for. As long as you're giving it away the discretion as to whom you give it to is largely up to you. KS is eminently well provided monetarily to do this, and with the really bad trustees out KS should be able to continue doing so ad infinitum.
          This is another good suggestion, and one of a couple of ways that Kamehameha may keep its enrollment "Hawaiian".

          Mahalo for your thoughts.

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          • #65
            Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

            Originally posted by Keanu View Post
            This is another good suggestion, and one of a couple of ways that Kamehameha may keep its enrollment "Hawaiian".
            The Kamehameha Schools can also forfeit its 501c3 tax status and become truly private. Then the Feds would have no leverage.
            Burl Burlingame
            "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
            honoluluagonizer.com

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            • #66
              Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

              I can't wait for a rebuttal that justifies racism on some level. This is gonna be good. Ask Mr. Abercrombie. I tried, and received no response from my email.

              People often perceive arrogance, or obnoxiousness, when the views presented by others conflict with beliefs that are held close to the heart.

              Abrasiveness is just another way of saying "kill the messenger". The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.
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              • #67
                Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.
                Fact: The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

                Fact: The principal purposes of this Act include but are not limited to:
                • Establishing a permanent land base for the benefit and use of native Hawaiians, upon which they may live, farm, ranch, and otherwise engage in commercial or industrial or any other activities...
                • Placing native Hawaiians on the lands set aside under this Act in a prompt and efficient manner and assuring long-term tenancy to beneficiaries of this Act and their successors
                • Preventing alienation of the fee title to the lands set aside under this Act so that these lands will always be held in trust for continued use by native Hawaiians in perpetuity;


                If you are saying that the federal government has satisfied its end of its responsibilities tied to this 86-year-old U.S. Congressional law, I think most educated on the issue would strongly disagree. If you are saying this law is invalid Tim, then why haven’t you or any of your like-minded friends filed a lawsuit to repeal it?

                Truth: Abercrombie is simply fulfilling his duty to support the laws that specifically benefit his constituency. Let’s keep the discussion relevant to the topic, Tim, instead of your insistency on turning every single topic on this board into an argument about racism.

                We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                USA TODAY, page 2A
                11 March 1993

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                • #68
                  .
                  ==137880 --No to special rights
                  Yes to a level playing field. ==
                  "Yes to a level playing field." Great!! Let's start with doing away with corporate America's inherited wealth assurances! Everybody is born equal, has equal access to health care, education, financing, and so on.

                  .
                  == L Lakio "Question to those participating in this discussion:

                  "Do you actually mean to limit some of your comments to only "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants," as that is what WASP means? Perhaps the acronym doesn't cover all of those you mean to include - but just sounds more cautiously "correct" than what you really want to say."
                  I really mean to say capitalUSts, fascUSts, corporatUSt$, corruptionUSt$, USraeli, militarUSts, terrorUSt$ American$-Brit$ colonialUSt$ elitUSt$ ..... , but, since the meaning of the acronym WASP is in varying degrees common to all these elitUSt ideologies and criminals toward humanity, and, since WASP is generally understood by most people possessing any intellectual accounts worthy an exchange rate, using "WASP" in a brief discussion provides adequate coverage without pushing too many buttons. Most WASP don't attempt to deny they are WASP until WASP is associated with their genocidal history and roots.

                  .
                  == alohabear --Culture is never stolen. It is lost and something lost can always be found and brought back. --
                  Of course culture is never stolen. Someone steals my red hair and my guitar doesn't make her or him a red-haired musician.

                  When it comes to discussing cultures it is most interesting to compare the "lost (can always be found and brought back (?!!?))" cultures of the Americas and the Pacific with what some might call 'American culture', although I personally believe that the defining attribute of what today is deemed to be "American" is the near absolute lack of culture.....although using the following context one might be lead to believe that culture is what "American " is all about:
                  == In practice, culture refered to elite goods and activities such as haute cuisine, high fashion or haute couture, museum-caliber art and classical music, and the word cultured to refer to people who know about, and take part in, these activities.

                  People who use "culture" in this way tend not to use it in the plural. They believe that there are not distinct cultures, each with their own internal logic and values, but rather only a single standard of refinement to which all groups are held accountable. Thus people with different customs from someone who believes themselves to be cultured are not usually understood as "having a different culture"; they are understood as being "uncultured". People lacking "culture" often seemed more "natural," and observers often defended (or criticized) elements of high culture for repressing "human nature". ==

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                  • #69
                    Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                    The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

                    When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. Perhaps Grandma and Grandpa are the best guardians of culture.

                    The KING owned the land in Hawaii. Not the commoners. Perhaps the commoners feel the land is theirs now that the monarchy is gone. Lucky for me, and my neighbors, bought our land from the monarchy.

                    I'm glad that HHL has worked in a "prompt and efficient manner" to benefit Hawaiians.

                    I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.

                    And yet, I know many Hawaiians who own their homes, without any help from some government entitlement program. So I will propose the question again.....

                    What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? Mr. Abercrombie knows the answer, but won't return my email. Keanu knows, but won't say. I have a feeling Waioli Kai knows. And perhaps even TuNnL knows.
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                    Energy answers are already here.

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                    • #70
                      Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                      Originally posted by timkona View Post
                      People often perceive arrogance, or obnoxiousness, when the views presented by others conflict with beliefs that are held close to the heart.
                      I disagree. Some people, like myself, just have no problem calling a spade a spade.

                      Originally posted by timkona View Post
                      Abrasiveness is just another way of saying "kill the messenger". The whole idea behind "kill the messenger" is rooted in defiant rejection of facts or truth.
                      I'm gonna have to diasagree with you here as well. At least as it relates to the the context of this discussion being as though most of your posts seem to lack all semblance of "facts or truth".

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                        Originally posted by timkona View Post
                        The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1921 was passed... to enable native Hawaiians to return to their lands in order to fully support self-sufficiency for native Hawaiians and the self-determination of native Hawaiians ... and the preservation of the values, traditions, and culture of native Hawaiians.

                        When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. Perhaps Grandma and Grandpa are the best guardians of culture.

                        The KING owned the land in Hawaii. Not the commoners. Perhaps the commoners feel the land is theirs now that the monarchy is gone. Lucky for me, and my neighbors, bought our land from the monarchy.

                        I'm glad that HHL has worked in a "prompt and efficient manner" to benefit Hawaiians.

                        I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.

                        And yet, I know many Hawaiians who own their homes, without any help from some government entitlement program. So I will propose the question again.....

                        What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? Mr. Abercrombie knows the answer, but won't return my email. Keanu knows, but won't say. I have a feeling Waioli Kai knows. And perhaps even TuNnL knows.
                        Tim, you sure are small-minded & shortsighted for a person that likes to trumpet his self- perceived intelligence at every opportunity.

                        For the record, I told you that I'll submit my response in due time. Unlike you, I prefer to back up my argument with facts rather than drivel.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                          Calling a spade a spade can be construed as abrasive or obnoxious. Isn't that what you are upset about with me?

                          And yet, you still have no explanation. I'm very patient. Look on the bright side. You might convince me of why certain races deserve special entitlement benefits. Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu, can be as persuasive as Hitler.

                          Hard to imagine that I'm being villified for arguing that Hawaiians are just as capable as any other race. It's a kooky world. It's even harder to imagine that a member of ANY race would embrace the notion of inferiority and failure to such depths as to justify being culled from the herd and labeled as incapable. Maybe it's a cultural difference.
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                          Energy answers are already here.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                            Originally posted by timkona View Post
                            Calling a spade a spade can be construed as abrasive or obnoxious. Isn't that what you are upset about with me?
                            No, calling a spade a spade is saying YOU are abrasive and obnoxious.I called a spade a spade, not a shovel.

                            I try not to waste my time on trivial emotions so I will declare for the record that although your argument or lack thereof on these issues is annoying, I don't harbor any ill will towards you. These are your perspectives no matter how ridiculous they are and as the saying goes.."Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."

                            Originally posted by timkona View Post
                            And yet, you still have no explanation. I'm very patient.
                            As indicated by your comments on the last couple of pages of this thread, I don't think you half are as patient as you claim to be.

                            Originally posted by timkona View Post
                            Look on the bright side.You might convince me of why certain races deserve special entitlement benefits. Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu, can be as persuasive as Hitler.
                            A good part of Europe? surely you jest! The Nazi party did not constitute "a good part of Europe". As an aside, I don't have any plans to write my own version of "Mein Kampf" anytime soon... sorry to disappoint you.

                            Originally posted by timkona View Post
                            Hard to imagine that I'm being villified for arguing that Hawaiians are just as capable as any other race. It's a kooky world. It's even harder to imagine that a member of ANY race would embrace the notion of inferiority and failure to such depths as to justify being culled from the herd and labeled as incapable. Maybe it's a cultural difference.

                            Vilified is spelled with just one L tim.

                            I don't think you're being vilified...You're just acting like a "Drama Queen".

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                            • #74
                              Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                              I see Tim as the BIGGEST supporter of Hawaiians in this thread. I see his point as being that the Kanaka Maoli as equal as any other race. They don't need to feel "less" than others. Mr. Abercrombie makes it seem they are "less" so they they need special programs to help them. If the Hawaiian people are really as "PROUD" a race as the PSA's on TV suggest they would shut why Mr. Abercrombie says about them down. My part Hawaiian son is proud of ALL his cultures, he makes good grades in(public) school, and one day will be a success because of the values I(and my family) taught him. He doesn't need Goverment help to get to his goals, his Ohana will get him there.
                              Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

                              Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
                              Flickr

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                              • #75
                                Pacific Nazi, tkona Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

                                .
                                --When trying to preserve a culture, I would not depend upon the government to help me. -- tkona

                                When one considers the great number of North and South American and Pacific peoples and cultures the U.S. has either directly destroyed or abetted destruction, who exactly would depend on the U.S. government/its states to help preserve Hawaiian culture? Only to the extent that the victims of genocide (in this case Hawai'ians) would plead to their executioner (the U.S. government/its corporatUSt$) to not enable complete disenfranchisment, when not otherwise extermination, would anyone be "depending on the government to help preserve a culture".
                                --I don't turn every thread into an argument about racism. When the practitioners of this vile behavior, such as Mr. Abercrombie et al, bring it to the forefront, I will not leave it alone.-- tkona

                                The entire foundation of and accumalated wealth of the United States is a result of centuries of racism. A few recent decades of pacifying rhetoric does not alter the facts. It's easy (for near exclusively 'whitish people' and their sycophants/apologists) to now say after they (US) own and control everything via genocide, theft and corruption: " Hey we're a very moral and ethical group, not to mention the fact that we outnumber you, let's be fair!,,, whatever you have left that you can call your own let's together make laws that entitle all of US to share that. " That of course not being Hawai'ian culture, but Hawai'ian lands, institutions and bessings.
                                Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently according to their racial designation. Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. There is a growing, but controversial, opinion that racism is a system of oppression -- a nexus of racist beliefs, whether explicit, tacit or unconscious; practices; organizations and institutions that combine to discriminate against and societally marginalize a class of people who share a common racial designation, based on that designation.

                                Given "racism" in the above context tkona is obviously suffering the self-induced paranoia that his race, or any race in Hawaii is threatened with being marginalized in by Hawai'ians. Even the most naive visitor to Hawaii would instantly see how absurd such claims are.

                                .
                                == Lots of folks on this thread will argue for favortism towards this group or that group. But you never hear the same folks explaining what it is, precisely, that makes a group inferior.== tkona #51==

                                In corporatUSt America what makes a tkona "group" inferior? Nothing more:$:Nothing less than one's connection to the overdrawn/bankrupt [what kind declaration does it take for Americans? a declaration from a morally and fiscally bankrupt CEO presidency: " US is broke,,, bankrupt, corrupt beyond belief/beyond redemption, overdue for dissolution and reconstitution of the peoples Its corruption both benefits and oppresses] capitalUSt wealth institutions of the obsolete, dying and rotting, and killing last remaining imperialit/colonialist United States and Great Britain. The heirs in the original thirteen colonies of the United States is in deep doo-doo when elitUSt heirs are finally exposed for the kleptocrUSy on which their institutions depends to afford to reign over other peoples.
                                --What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world? -- tkona

                                ??? "... naturally unable to compete and make it in the world?" If that is not a quote translated straight from Mein Kamph I would be stupified.
                                --I don't have any plans to write my own version of "Mein Kampf" anytime soon... sorry to disappoint you.-- tkona
                                --Hitler was able to convince a good part of Europe why Jews were inferior. Perhaps you, Keanu [Hawai'ian], [can be as persuasive as Hitler. -- tkona

                                So let's see... timkona is suggesting that Hawai'ians and their adherents are the Nazi of Hawaii and that white people or anybody not in lock step with the Nazi of Hawaii are equivalent to the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe pre-1945 and subject to the same persecution. I'd say that despite tkona protestations otherwise, tkona is engaged in his version of Mein Kampf on the pages of this forum.

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