Teacher's New Contract

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

sinjin, what is your point? When you can make the point that drug addiction is merely a lifestyle, then we can jump on your argument. As for the alcohol issue, they have breathalyzers at the fire stations and have used those to detect if a firefighter is still under the influence when s/he comes on shift. This isn't relegated to mere "legality", but about public health and safety.

And who, among the many who have lived through hangovers, will not be honest to say that dealing with one in a hangover is dealing with a bitch? Do our kids need that? You know my answer.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Like glossyp says, once the ball starts rolling, it gathers momentum and there may be no way to stop it, even when it reaches absurd proportions.

What is the whole purpose of random but mandatory testing anyway? If it's meant to be a deterrent, that kind of threat doesn't work with someone who's already addicted (whether to drugs or alcohol). If the purpose is to punish rather than identify and rehabilitate, then the cost to society will be immense.

Miulang

Is anyone arguing that ferreting out drug use/abuse is absurd? Hasn't drug testing leading to rehabilitation as the first response not already been established? What is with all the red herrings around here?

[joshuatree]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

The legality of a substance can and has changed over time. The potential for harm or the lack thereof remains constant.

But at this present moment, this current time, your usual list of illicit drugs (pot, crack, coke, meth, etc), is defined as illegal by law. Alcohol is defined as legal. So it would serve well to look at the arguments within the context. Otherwise, there is no basis for anything, we can argue till eternity on the definition of harm.

[Miulang]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Is anyone arguing that ferreting out drug use/abuse is absurd? Hasn't drug testing leading to rehabilitation as the first response not already been established? What is with all the red herrings around here?

The point is, why have we come to this point in the first place? What ever happened to prudence and self-control? When people can't control their own actions, that's when other people decide they have to impose rules. It's the bad apples that make it bad for everyone else. And a part of that is because as a community, people only tend to care about themselves and not how their choices and actions might impact others in their community.

Miulang

[sinjin]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

sinjin, what is your point? When you can make the point that drug addiction is merely a lifestyle, then we can jump on your argument. As for the alcohol issue, they have breathalyzers at the fire stations and have used those to detect if a firefighter is still under the influence when s/he comes on shift. This isn't relegated to mere "legality", but about public health and safety.

And who, among the many who have lived through hangovers, will not be honest to say that dealing with one in a hangover is dealing with a bitch? Do our kids need that? You know my answer.

You'll notice that you say addiction not use as if it is certain all users are abusers. Does that hold for drinkers as well? Nevermind the fact that pot, heroin, alcohol, meth are all very different substances. Nevermind that people vary widely in their will power and judgement. You say you abstain and now others should prove likewise. When did that get to be the only approved lifestyle? I come from a family of alcoholics. I am not. I do occassionally have a drink.

I see no public safety issue with a teacher having drank on Saturday night or having smoked some pot sometime in the last 30 days. Why would I?

Are we back to compulsory role models again?

[Miulang]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

You'll notice that you say addiction not use as if it is certain all users are abusers. Does that hold for drinkers as well? Nevermind the fact that pot, heroin, alcohol, meth are all very different substances. Nevermind that people vary widely in their will power and judgement. You say you abstain and now others should prove likewise. When did that get to be the only approved lifestyle? I come from a family of alcoholics. I am not. I do occassionally have a drink.

And that goes to my point that having these random and mandatory tests will do squat to deter people already addicted. People with addictions will do whatever they have to to evade detection but continue to feed their addictions (hence thing like the emails about ways to "beat" urine tests).

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Is anyone arguing that ferreting out drug use/abuse is absurd? Hasn't drug testing leading to rehabilitation as the first response not already been established? What is with all the red herrings around here?

Exactly, I'm seeing red herrings everywhere, it's really making me start to believe people have something to hide. As I understand, the proposed random drug testing permits one who has been ID'ed positive to retain his/her position and go through rehab, far more lenient then private companies.

And this whole deal about humilation of peeing in a cup. Again I ask, does this contract specify urine tests for drugs? Because there is testing for drugs via a hair sample. If anything, far more accurate and also less gross for the tech.

I always hear the argument, "but it's for the sake of children", so pay the teachers decently. Okay, I accept that. But now, when it pertains to testing for something that is illegal and shouldn't even be there, all I hear is "but my rights, my rights". What happened to "it's for the sake of children"? This isn't a test for something that is legal. If people are so concerned about violation of rights, please get rid of sobriety checkpoints then. Because that's random search without cause. Get rid of checking my backpack when I walk through the airport because that's random search without cause. Get rid of the store shoplifting detectors at the entrance because the radio wave/emf wave is a violation of my body. Random search without cause.

[joshuatree]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

And that goes to my point that having these random and mandatory tests will do squat to deter people already addicted. People with addictions will do whatever they have to to evade detection but continue to feed their addictions (hence thing like the emails about ways to "beat" urine tests).

Miulang

But it will remove these people from the children, isn't that good enough? Besides, for like the millionth time, hair testing, you can't beat hair testing, not unless you're so cunning as to switching hair samples. Getting a string of your hair doesn't require you to hide in a bathroom, everyone can watch your hair sample being taken and you're not humilatied.

[glossyp]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

If people are so concerned about violation of rights, please get rid of sobriety checkpoints then. Because that's random search without cause. Get rid of checking my backpack when I walk through the airport because that's random search without cause. Get rid of the store shoplifting detectors at the entrance because the radio wave/emf wave is a violation of my body. Random search without cause.

I know you're being sarcastic, but you are exactly right. Our personal privacy rights have been eroded to the point that we are being led like sheep and many now believe that these things are good. Maybe some of them are, but there is little or no resistance to those that are particularly pernicious.

And not all testing going on is for illegal substances. Tobacco use is now used as a disqualifyer for employment or reason for firing with some companies. What's next?

[sinjin]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

I know you're being sarcastic, but you are exactly right. Our personal privacy rights have been eroded to the point that we are being led like sheep and many now believe that these things are good. Maybe some of them are, but there is little or no resistance to those that are particularly pernicious.

And not all testing going on is for illegal substances. Tobacco use is now used as a disqualifyer for employment or reason for firing with some companies. What's next?

Checking your computer for porn? Think of the children. Maybe your Amazon activity. What exactly have you been reading? How about your passport? Amsterdam huh?

I'd bet if you removed pot from the list all objections to testing would practically vanish.

[Miulang]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

But it will remove these people from the children, isn't that good enough? Besides, for like the millionth time, hair testing, you can't beat hair testing, not unless you're so cunning as to switching hair samples. Getting a string of your hair doesn't require you to hide in a bathroom, everyone can watch your hair sample being taken and you're not humilatied.

But if these people can "maintain"--and some do very very well--(i.e., not act like they are in an altered state) while they are teaching, aren't you encroaching on their personal lives? If the kids don't already know the teacher is an addict, and the teacher doesn't behave as though s/he is addicted, how besides with a test would you know, and why should you care if the kids aren't being affected? (I don't necessarily agree with this, but I am curious how you would answer this).

Miulang

[scrivener]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Jiminycrispies are you taking this personally, Scriv.

I don't know how else to take it. I am telling you that there is nothing in my history, comportment, performance, or demeanor that should give you reason to suspect that I am using drugs; in fact, I have worked my tail off for eleven years to establish a reputation that is above reproach. I have a lot of weaknesses as a teacher, but none that ever calls into question my character or competence in the classroom. Yet you insist that I should be tested. Whether or not we agree on whether I should be tested, is it not a personal issue? You won't even acknowledge that I have reason to be offended.

...and while we are at it, you are out of your damned mind if you think trading piss harms the profession more than say "sexual relationships with students". Now, I am pissed off for reading that. WTF??

When Mary Kay Latorneau (or whatever her name was) was caught doing what she did, there was no call for all teachers to be scrutinized for possible relationships with children. The case was taken for what it was: One sick woman, completely atypical of teachers in general. I do not minimize the repugnance of what this woman did, but it was not representative of teachers in general and everyone knows it. This drug-testing thing treats me as if, even under the scrutiny of the parents whose kids I teach, the administration who pays me to teach those kids, and the very kids themselves, there is still reason to suspect me of impropriety. I've worked too hard on establishing myself to have to go through that.

Let's get real. The socio-economics of your student body base is waaay different than many other schools throughout Hawaii. Farrington High. Keonepoko Elementary. Kualapu'u K-12. How much of my previously-mentioned social job duties do you have in comparison to the staff at these schools? How many of your families are sending kids to school without the basics, hungry, not doing their homework at night, because their parents are on the pipe? Or they are getting molested? How many of your kids are falling through the cracks because their family instabilities? How many of your kids wind up in the paper with parents/foster parents/funky guardians almost killing them? What else are you trading for that loss of income that public school teachers enjoy?

Not as many as at other schools, but more than you might think, and I'm not really allowed to tell you anyway. As for "falling through the cracks," don't even go there. My students are where they are because of cracks in other schools. For many of them, I'm the bucket beneath the sieve.

How are you qualified to determine that you are getting the raw end of the contract, when you are arguing with those who have living, viable experience of said "end of the deal" and are overwhelmingly supportive of its effects and results? You are bemoaning what is really just a theory to you. When you are unfairly maligned and villified by the nefarious cycle of random piss-testing, I promise to be open-minded about it. But the fact is that the testing has become much more accurate, finding masking agents, understanding the difference between sudafed and meth, and so on.

I can't argue with that because you're right -- I'm not being asked to do this. But as I have said, what affects the profession affects the professional. What happens to my colleagues in public schools affects me. However, if I am unqualified to make this argument just because I'm arguing a "theory," are you not equally unqualified, since you don't do what I do?

You're also right about really having very little argument if the teachers vote to accept this deal. Is it not possible, though, that the majority is wrong? There was a time in this country when the majority of women might have said they are undeserving of the right to vote.

Further, I have never had to hold a hand high; I go into the bathroom, piss in a cup, and take it outside. No risks of indignity.

The indignity comes when my professional record and my professional word are not trusted. It is only by being trusted that one becomes trustworthy, and now I and my colleagues are having that taken from us.

The points you make here at the end of this post are ones I have addressed. Again, you are taking this personally. Pixelate on it as you wish, Scriv. I prefer, rely upon, find comfort in, and believe in the math, which is the qualitative benefits a drug-free workplace enjoys. A great many of us are denying our fine public schools the luxury of our ability to teach children. I will not huff&puff about it; I give back and demand a lot. For this, I will not apologize.

I can also tell you all about the qualitative benefits a drug-free workplace enjoys, and nobody had to pee into a cup to achieve it. When an administration hires people it can trust and weeds out the ones who are suspect, I can wake up every morning and look forward to coming to work, secure in the knowledge that these administrators, these parents, and these children expect me to deliver on the promises I make and will support me as I endeavor to do so. What's wrong with that?

[joshuatree]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

But if these people can "maintain"--and some do very very well--(i.e., not act like they are in an altered state) while they are teaching, aren't you encroaching on their personal lives? If the kids don't already know the teacher is an addict, and the teacher doesn't behave as though s/he is addicted, how besides with a test would you know, and why should you care if the kids aren't being affected? (I don't necessarily agree with this, but I am curious how you would answer this).

Miulang

Because as a parent, is it not my responsibility to see that the environment my child is in is safe? Or as an unwilling customer since my taxes go into the public school system whether I use it or not, am I not entitled to a fact finding report much like you get a quarterly update if you're stockholder of a comp? I will apply your reasoning to another situation and then ask you the same question. If a pilot or bus driver is an addict but can maintain his/her appearance and can meet perfomance figures, are you ok with riding that plane/bus? Why should you care at that point?

[scrivener]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Because as a parent, is it not my responsibility to see that the environment my child is in is safe? Or as an unwilling customer since my taxes go into the public school system whether I use it or not, am I not entitled to a fact finding report much like you get a quarterly update if you're stockholder of a comp?

Yes. Absolutely. So, by all means, come sit in my classroom. Watch me do what I do. Ask me any questions you want about my methodology, assessment, and pedagogy. Do it for a whole month, or drop in unannounced whenever you please. Interview my professors, my administrators, and my students. Check my PRAXIS scores and read my Master's thesis. Follow me to and from school to see if my driving is okay. I am trying to say that I have not a thing to hide, and that if you could see me teach, you'd know it. Why do you need to get into my piss as well?

Joshuatree, I'm totally seriousl Email me and I'll set it up for you. You could watch me or any of my colleagues. I'm begging you to see for yourself what it's like to do my job and I'm begging you to ask yourself if this is the work of someone with a drug problem.

[sinjin]

Re: Teacher's New Contract

Because as a parent, is it not my responsibility to see that the environment my child is in is safe?

Best set up bloodstream checkpoints on the sidewalk or else lock your kids indoors.