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Sovereignty - help me understand

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  • #31
    Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.

    Our issue isn't about the Hawaiians™. It is about Hawai'i®.
    OK - maybe I'm not being clear. Or maybe I do not understand. But if the nation of Hawaii cannot get recoginition as an indigenious people or as a nation, why not take the case to the UN and force the US's hand? That's all I'm saying. And please don't take this negatively - I'm on your side.

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    • #32
      Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

      Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
      why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.
      Because Kanaka are not the only entity that has an ongoing fight for national sovereignty? Many of the "tribes" we keep making reference to were once independent nations, with treaties and international commerce, and they lost their nations to European settlers. Some have been battling for restoration of their nations longer than the indigenous people of Hawai`i, and have experiences and stories to tell that could be of use to those who wish to restore Hawai`i's status as an independent nation in the 21st Century. Isolation will not assist the sovereignty movement.

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      • #33
        Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

        Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
        why not take the case to the UN and force the US's hand?
        Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.

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        • #34
          Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
          Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.
          Ah yes, I concur.

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          • #35
            Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

            Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
            Something more sustainable than tourism.
            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            Agreed but what will it be?
            I wish I knew!

            It's easy to say "something" but without anything tangible, people will be against sovereignty for practical reasons. It's hard for an average joe to just take a leap of faith when there is a mortgage to worry about.
            I agree that it's hard to muster enthusiasm for the New Economy if you have no idea what it'll look like.

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            • #36
              Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
              Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.
              That's assuming that America will always remain as powerful as it is today. Who knows. It took a thousand years before Rome fell and fragmented. We've only had two hundred years, so far.

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              • #37
                Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
                That's assuming that America will always remain as powerful as it is today. Who knows. It took a thousand years before Rome fell and fragmented. We've only had two hundred years, so far.
                I can't imagine that proponents of Hawaiian sovereignty are willing to wait another 800 years to be heard by the international community, however. But I could be wrong.

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                • #38
                  Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                  Possible economics: Microalgae farming, sea salt harvesting, deep salt water desalinization...all would utilize resources that are fairly easy to come by and don't require super complex mechanisms to work. And the products could either be used in Hawai'i or sold abroad. In fact, the new government wouldn't even have to do the work: sell leases to the rights to grow the microalgae, harvest the salt and the water and share the profits with the people.

                  Miulang
                  Last edited by Miulang; May 8, 2007, 12:48 PM.
                  "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                  • #39
                    Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                    Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                    I can't imagine that proponents of Hawaiian sovereignty are willing to wait another 800 years to be heard by the international community, however. But I could be wrong.
                    Ha! I'm not saying anyone's willing to wait that long. But if that's what they really want, they may need to. Or, who knows, maybe America's overseas possessions will go the way of the British Commonwealth, slipping away one by one.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                      Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
                      I wish I knew!

                      I agree that it's hard to muster enthusiasm for the New Economy if you have no idea what it'll look like.
                      How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?
                      “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                      http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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                      • #41
                        Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                        My nominee for "post of the day":
                        Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                        How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?

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                        • #42
                          Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                          Because Kanaka are not the only entity that has an ongoing fight for national sovereignty? Many of the "tribes" we keep making reference to were once independent nations, with treaties and international commerce, and they lost their nations to European settlers. Some have been battling for restoration of their nations longer than the indigenous people of Hawai`i, and have experiences and stories to tell that could be of use to those who wish to restore Hawai`i's status as an independent nation in the 21st Century. Isolation will not assist the sovereignty movement.
                          Read at least this page of that long thread before we rehash.

                          pax

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                          • #43
                            Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                            Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
                            Read at least this page of that long thread before we rehash.
                            Okay, I've re-read several pages (including many, many insults, of which this thread has been blessedly free to date), but I still have trouble understanding exactly what point it is you want me to see. I'll just grab this one point, hoping that's what you were steering me to:
                            Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
                            I would rather envy the freedom of the maori model than that of the deficit model which is the American Native™ way. Screw that cycle.
                            Please note that I am NOT recommending Kanaka follow the flawed American Indian model, the "nation-within-a-nation" concepts. There are Indian nations in both the US and Canada that have been fighting for total, separate independence for generations. Do you have a specific problem with learning from their successes and failures to date?

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                            • #44
                              Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                              Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                              How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?

                              bleh. too much NIMBY around here for that to happen, or don't you realize that many sole proprietorship adult care homes are in neighborhoods like kalihi and waipahu (where my best friend's mom runs one) and that honolulu/hawaii is far lacking in comparison to portland/oregon when it comes to administering to such businesses? there are many, many, many reasons why my mother moved to portland to open her own adult care home instead of to try to do it here. just one of many reasons is that the support from the county/state is developed to a level that it's not here (which is important when you find yourself with a resident whose needs suddenly deteriorate past a point where you can care for them properly and you need either more help or to transfer to another care home/facility better suited to that patient's needs). you'd need, at the very least, more case managers and social workers and dept of health surveyors....

                              oh, and as for the NIMBY part? how many neighborhoods would be willing to take the increased handivan traffic or delivery of adult diaper/medical supply traffic through their streets?

                              which is a shame, because it's a lucrative industry and i think adult care homes are actually an asset to their neighborhoods. the owners/managers of such businesses are home all the time and have a vested interest in keeping the neighborhood safe.
                              superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                              "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                              nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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                              • #45
                                Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

                                One more way for the new government to make money: sell URLs under the domain name ".HI" (like Tuvalu has made money selling domain names with .TV at the end).

                                It's probably also useful to learn some lessons from other Pacific Island economies (i.e., no sense reinventing the wheel or getting burned twice). Hawai'i could also become an offshore tax haven for Americans.

                                Miulang
                                Last edited by Miulang; May 8, 2007, 04:53 PM.
                                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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