Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63

Thread: Sovereignty - help me understand

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    I stay on the Mainland
    Posts
    314

    Default Sovereignty - help me understand

    30+ years ago when I was little, everyone just seem to live life in Hawaii, like it always been. Maybe 10-15 years ago, the soveriegnty issue seems to be the front page.

    I know there are different groups with different opinions.

    Help me understand, is soveriegnty about:

    - Is it about power and control?
    - Having own nation so one can have their own rules and laws?
    - Is it about the money, like the airport tax?
    - Is it to redistribute income?
    - What is the place of non-Hawaiian blood residence?
    - What about part-Hawaiians?
    - Is Hawaii suppose to be "two countries?"

    TIA

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    K-Town
    Posts
    2,497

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Great Thread ! So many questions I have about the SovMov.

    Who are the principal players/factions in the game?
    Is there a giant book full of detailed plans that would guide them if they succeed?
    What about laws, police, beauracratic infrastructure, etc etc??

    Can't wait for responses here.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    If you truly want to learn, then you will have to do the work yourself. Start by reading through the links here, and here and here and here and go on from there.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    K-Town
    Posts
    2,497

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Shucks.....I found nothing that looked remotely like a plan.

    When you have a goal, and if you achieve that goal, but have nothing planned for what happens AFTER you achieve the goal, then you are just like President Bush.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    The best thread on HT that discusses the issue is the "Statehood holiday" thread. The first 10 pages is a lot of emotional stuff. But from 11 on, it is worth the read (or at least saves me the trouble of typing that stuff out alllll over again).

    pax

  6. #6

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Shucks.....I found nothing that looked remotely like a plan.

    When you have a goal, and if you achieve that goal, but have nothing planned for what happens AFTER you achieve the goal, then you are just like President Bush.
    That's not quite true, Tim. You didn't look hard and long enough, Tim.

    The government of the Kingdom of Hawai'i

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  7. #7

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    seriously Miulang, why are you doing their homework for them?

    pax

  8. #8

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    seriously Miulang, why are you doing their homework for them?
    Pua'i, I gave them a nudge...it's up to them to do the learning.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  9. #9

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Shucks.....I found nothing that looked remotely like a plan.

    When you have a goal, and if you achieve that goal, but have nothing planned for what happens AFTER you achieve the goal, then you are just like President Bush.
    we talk about referendums on the "nationalism vs ethnicity" thread. The plan is to vote on the issues and determine the agenda (ergo, your "plan").

    pax

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    I stay on the Mainland
    Posts
    314

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    I started to read the links. Maybe there needs to be a FAQ section.

    In the Declaration of Independence

    "We, the indigenous people of Hawai'i, empathically reject incorporation into the United States of America, and hereby announce secession. We do this with clarity of mind, good conscience, and a determined will. we are ready to sacrifice our worldly assets and our very lives to see the kingdom of Hawai'i restored."

    So what about my fee simple property on Honolulu? Do I need to sell and move? So, once it is set up, people will vote on whether or not I get to keep my house?

    "I am Edmund Kelii Silva, Jr., Ali'i Nui (Sovereign) of the kingdom of Hawaii. On my mother's side I am the direct lineal descendent of King Kamehameha the Great, and heir to the throne. And, on my father's side I am the direct lineal heir to King Kamehameha Nui of the kingdom of Maui before King Kamehameha the Great unified the lands. On November 22, 2002, the prime minister of the Hawaiian kingdom, along with the Council of Regency, Na Kupuna Council O' Hawai'i Nei, the Na Kupuna Council Hawai'i Moku of the legislative body of government, and the Royal Kupunas of the House of Nobles, proclaimed that I am the lawful successor to Ali'i Nuis (High Chiefs) of ancient Hawai'i."

    Why should Kamehameha's decendents be the heir to Hawaii? Lunalilo was appointed. And Kalalaua was elected. So why would someone with certain lineal connection be Prime Minister compare to someone else who is also Hawaiian, with other connections, or "no connections" at all?
    Last edited by cabanalane; May 7th, 2007 at 11:09 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    If you own fee simple property, I seriously doubt it would ever be taken away from you or your heirs, except as in recent cases of eminent domain on CONUS. But if your land was condemned or confiscated, you deserve fair market value for giving up your land.


    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  12. #12

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by GoLowDrew View Post
    I started to read the links. Maybe there needs to be a FAQ section.

    In the Declaration of Independence

    "We, the indigenous people of Hawai'i, empathically reject incorporation into the United States of America, and hereby announce secession. We do this with clarity of mind, good conscience, and a determined will. we are ready to sacrifice our worldly assets and our very lives to see the kingdom of Hawai'i restored."

    So what about my fee simple property on Honolulu? Do I need to sell and move? So, once it is set up, people will vote on whether or not I get to keep my house?

    "I am Edmund Kelii Silva, Jr., Ali'i Nui (Sovereign) of the kingdom of Hawaii. On my mother's side I am the direct lineal descendent of King Kamehameha the Great, and heir to the throne. And, on my father's side I am the direct lineal heir to King Kamehameha Nui of the kingdom of Maui before King Kamehameha the Great unified the lands. On November 22, 2002, the prime minister of the Hawaiian kingdom, along with the Council of Regency, Na Kupuna Council O' Hawai'i Nei, the Na Kupuna Council Hawai'i Moku of the legislative body of government, and the Royal Kupunas of the House of Nobles, proclaimed that I am the lawful successor to Ali'i Nuis (High Chiefs) of ancient Hawai'i."

    Why should Kamehameha's decendents be the heir to Hawaii? Lunalilo was appointed. And Kalalaua was elected. So why would someone with certain lineal connection be Prime Minister compare to someone else who is also Hawaiian, with other connections, or "no connections" at all?

    Dude, go look. And not on that website, for goodness' sake.

    pax

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Pāhoa, Hawai'i
    Posts
    380

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    Dude, go look. And not on that website, for goodness' sake.
    I agree.

    Although it's a little dated, Tony Castanha's UH Political Science M.A. thesis entitled "The Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement: Roles of and Impacts on Non-Hawaiians" might prove more educational.
    Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū ā ē ī ō ū -- Just a little something to "cut and paste."

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by GoLowDrew View Post
    So what about my fee simple property on Honolulu? Do I need to sell and move? So, once it is set up, people will vote on whether or not I get to keep my house?
    Scary to not know, huh? A lot of homeowners worry about this. I think one of the reasons so many people are against the sovereign movement is because they have no clue what they could lose.

    Was the seller of your home the legal owner?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    we vote by referendum.

    All the way.

    -Want to keep dual citizenship? (US/Hawaiian). Let's vote on that.
    -Want to do away with "native" issues? Let's put "a Hawaiian citizen is a Hawaiian" and vote on that.

    We fill up the ballots and take it democratically. Hawaii was becoming a socialist monarchy anyway, and with our leaders all elected in the last four governments it is a natural fit.**

    **yes, nobody voted for Sanford Dole and the Republic of Hawai'i, but from Lunalilo until Lingle, outside of whats-his-face, we've been doing the voting thang.

    pax

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    K-Town
    Posts
    2,497

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    I enjoyed the Constitution link. Lots of similarities to the major themes of most civilized countries. I skimmed it over and noticed that free speech isnt mentioned until 1/2 way down. No big deal really. I also noticed that non-Hawaiian children born in Hawaii would not be citizens until 7 years of residence. Imagine a child without a country?

    Why is their no message or update from the King since 2005?

    Is there any references where the nitty-gritty of day to day society are addressed? Most of what is in the Constitution is fairly broad in scope. Lot of stuff being put off for the legislature to decide. I guess you can't answer all the questions in one fell swoop.

    Those links were good reading.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    I stay on the Mainland
    Posts
    314

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Mililani View Post
    Was the seller of your home the legal owner?
    A lot of reading about "legal owner." Maybe in Hawaii's case, it's easier to figure out. But take a piece of land, France for example, who is the "legal" owners? How far back in history do we have to go?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    -Want to keep dual citizenship? (US/Hawaiian). Let's vote on that.
    What if the US government disagrees? The same dilemma has been one of the major sticking points for the Quebec sovereignty movement for decades. It's not a unilateral issue, but of course, open to negotiation.

    Please keep the discussion going; for such a hot topic, the level of civility here is appreciated.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    What if the US government disagrees? The same dilemma has been one of the major sticking points for the Quebec sovereignty movement for decades. It's not a unilateral issue, but of course, open to negotiation.

    Please keep the discussion going; for such a hot topic, the level of civility here is appreciated.
    yeah, what if the US disagrees? That would be an interesting debate on the U.N. level, wouldn't it? How often has the US rescinded citizenship from its citizenry, and how often has that happened when said citizens gained new citizenship?

    In order for the discussion to keep going, it would be realllly helpful if people 1)read up Jonah's links, or at the very least 2)read up what we have said about it here at HT. I don't want to repeat myself.

    pax

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kihei -currently away at school in NY
    Posts
    734

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    As an outside observer, I like to think I am reasonably well read on the subject of sovereignty, as are others here on the CONUS. My son is actually studying this at UH. With this thread going on, it became a big topic of conversation the other night at dinner. I was asked to convey this from a Candian citizen - along the lines of Hawaiian sovereignty is that of the Aloquin tribe (not 100% sure on the name of the tribe). They too had been trying for sovereignty for many years. The Candain government refused to recognize them. They went to the UN and pled their case. The UN granted them sovereignty regardless of the official Canadian position. This in turn forced the Canadian government to recognize them.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah K View Post
    I agree.

    Although it's a little dated, Tony Castanha's UH Political Science M.A. thesis entitled "The Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement: Roles of and Impacts on Non-Hawaiians" might prove more educational.
    Thanks for the link. I looked it over, haven't had the time to read through the whole thing yet. But I think many Non-Hawaiians are against sovereignty because of Chapter 8. The table might be unsettling to them. No matter what form of sovereignty, the transition phase looks ok but as soon as we hit the final phase, it doesn't bode well. Words like "treason" are in that column? I can't see why anyone would go along with a plan that may eventually brand them with "treason". Plus, the viewpoint is to drastically curtail tourism. Good in one sense but bad in another, what will be the main economic engine then?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    The status of First Nations in Canada, especially what rights for secession they may have in Quebec were the province to separate from Canada, are another of the complex facets of such discussions. This article (from the University of British Columbia paper) reported on what the different political parties in Quebec might do (part of coverage of their recent election.)
    As noted before, study of the Quebec question provides some perspectives that are relevant to the concern of Hawaiian sovereignty, particularly in the wide range of issues related to secession in the modern world.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    3,169

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Thanks for the link. I looked it over, haven't had the time to read through the whole thing yet. But I think many Non-Hawaiians are against sovereignty because of Chapter 8. The table might be unsettling to them. No matter what form of sovereignty, the transition phase looks ok but as soon as we hit the final phase, it doesn't bode well. Words like "treason" are in that column? I can't see why anyone would go along with a plan that may eventually brand them with "treason".
    I suspect the Tories in the American colonies probably thought the same thing.

    Plus, the viewpoint is to drastically curtail tourism. Good in one sense but bad in another, what will be the main economic engine then?
    Something more sustainable than tourism.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Please explain how one could draw parallels between the Algonquins and the nation of Hawaii. One is a tribe of people, the other is a recognized nation which had over 30 standing trade treaties with other nations worldwide, a constitutional monarchy, an extensive naturalized citizenry base, minted money, public education system, public health system, tax system, etc.

    pax

  25. #25

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    PM, I am surprised that you would so quickly dismiss the Algonquins as simply just "a tribe of people." I would suggest that you do further research into the status of American Indian and Canadian First Nations "tribes" prior to European settlement of the North American continent. Many of them had established governmental and social structures comparable to those of the Kingdom of Hawai`i for several centuries.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •