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Thread: Sovereignty - help me understand

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    PM-I don't see how a tribe not recognized by "whoeva" is different than a "nation" recognized by "whoeva". As if tribal people have any less rights on this planet than "nations".

  2. #27

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    I found this glossary of terminology that pertains to First Nation peoples of Canada, but I think also accurately describes most aboriginal groups all over the world, including the first people of Hawai'i, the kanaka maoli. And the Aboriginal people of Australia are trying to do the same thing that the kanaka maoli are doing. Here's another perspective on the sovereignty issue from the Native American viewpoint.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; May 8th, 2007 at 10:33 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  3. #28

    Default Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
    Something more sustainable than tourism.
    Agreed but what will it be? It's easy to say "something" but without anything tangible, people will be against sovereignty for practical reasons. It's hard for an average joe to just take a leap of faith when there is a mortgage to worry about.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    Please explain how one could draw parallels between the Algonquins and the nation of Hawaii. One is a tribe of people, the other is a recognized nation which had over 30 standing trade treaties with other nations worldwide, a constitutional monarchy, an extensive naturalized citizenry base, minted money, public education system, public health system, tax system, etc.
    I think the point is, that if this "tribe" could take their case to the UN, then an established (modern) nation would have an even stronger case to take to the UN.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.

    Our issue isn't about the Hawaiians™. It is about Hawai'i®.

    pax

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.

    Our issue isn't about the Hawaiians™. It is about Hawai'i®.
    OK - maybe I'm not being clear. Or maybe I do not understand. But if the nation of Hawaii cannot get recoginition as an indigenious people or as a nation, why not take the case to the UN and force the US's hand? That's all I'm saying. And please don't take this negatively - I'm on your side.

  7. #32

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.
    Because Kanaka are not the only entity that has an ongoing fight for national sovereignty? Many of the "tribes" we keep making reference to were once independent nations, with treaties and international commerce, and they lost their nations to European settlers. Some have been battling for restoration of their nations longer than the indigenous people of Hawai`i, and have experiences and stories to tell that could be of use to those who wish to restore Hawai`i's status as an independent nation in the 21st Century. Isolation will not assist the sovereignty movement.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by acousticlady View Post
    why not take the case to the UN and force the US's hand?
    Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.
    Ah yes, I concur.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
    Something more sustainable than tourism.
    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Agreed but what will it be?
    I wish I knew!

    It's easy to say "something" but without anything tangible, people will be against sovereignty for practical reasons. It's hard for an average joe to just take a leap of faith when there is a mortgage to worry about.
    I agree that it's hard to muster enthusiasm for the New Economy if you have no idea what it'll look like.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Because the U.S. government only accepts the rulings of the U.N. when it is expedient for them to do so, and rejects others with which it does not agree. The chances that people representing an independent Hawaiian Nation would even be able to get a hearing at the U.N. are slim.
    That's assuming that America will always remain as powerful as it is today. Who knows. It took a thousand years before Rome fell and fragmented. We've only had two hundred years, so far.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
    That's assuming that America will always remain as powerful as it is today. Who knows. It took a thousand years before Rome fell and fragmented. We've only had two hundred years, so far.
    I can't imagine that proponents of Hawaiian sovereignty are willing to wait another 800 years to be heard by the international community, however. But I could be wrong.

  13. #38

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Possible economics: Microalgae farming, sea salt harvesting, deep salt water desalinization...all would utilize resources that are fairly easy to come by and don't require super complex mechanisms to work. And the products could either be used in Hawai'i or sold abroad. In fact, the new government wouldn't even have to do the work: sell leases to the rights to grow the microalgae, harvest the salt and the water and share the profits with the people.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; May 8th, 2007 at 12:48 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    I can't imagine that proponents of Hawaiian sovereignty are willing to wait another 800 years to be heard by the international community, however. But I could be wrong.
    Ha! I'm not saying anyone's willing to wait that long. But if that's what they really want, they may need to. Or, who knows, maybe America's overseas possessions will go the way of the British Commonwealth, slipping away one by one.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
    I wish I knew!

    I agree that it's hard to muster enthusiasm for the New Economy if you have no idea what it'll look like.
    How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?
    “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
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  16. #41

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    My nominee for "post of the day":
    Quote Originally Posted by sinjin View Post
    How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?

  17. #42

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Because Kanaka are not the only entity that has an ongoing fight for national sovereignty? Many of the "tribes" we keep making reference to were once independent nations, with treaties and international commerce, and they lost their nations to European settlers. Some have been battling for restoration of their nations longer than the indigenous people of Hawai`i, and have experiences and stories to tell that could be of use to those who wish to restore Hawai`i's status as an independent nation in the 21st Century. Isolation will not assist the sovereignty movement.
    Read at least this page of that long thread before we rehash.

    pax

  18. #43

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    Read at least this page of that long thread before we rehash.
    Okay, I've re-read several pages (including many, many insults, of which this thread has been blessedly free to date), but I still have trouble understanding exactly what point it is you want me to see. I'll just grab this one point, hoping that's what you were steering me to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    I would rather envy the freedom of the maori model than that of the deficit model which is the American Native™ way. Screw that cycle.
    Please note that I am NOT recommending Kanaka follow the flawed American Indian model, the "nation-within-a-nation" concepts. There are Indian nations in both the US and Canada that have been fighting for total, separate independence for generations. Do you have a specific problem with learning from their successes and failures to date?

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by sinjin View Post
    How about assisted care living for retiring baby boomers from CONUS?

    bleh. too much NIMBY around here for that to happen, or don't you realize that many sole proprietorship adult care homes are in neighborhoods like kalihi and waipahu (where my best friend's mom runs one) and that honolulu/hawaii is far lacking in comparison to portland/oregon when it comes to administering to such businesses? there are many, many, many reasons why my mother moved to portland to open her own adult care home instead of to try to do it here. just one of many reasons is that the support from the county/state is developed to a level that it's not here (which is important when you find yourself with a resident whose needs suddenly deteriorate past a point where you can care for them properly and you need either more help or to transfer to another care home/facility better suited to that patient's needs). you'd need, at the very least, more case managers and social workers and dept of health surveyors....

    oh, and as for the NIMBY part? how many neighborhoods would be willing to take the increased handivan traffic or delivery of adult diaper/medical supply traffic through their streets?

    which is a shame, because it's a lucrative industry and i think adult care homes are actually an asset to their neighborhoods. the owners/managers of such businesses are home all the time and have a vested interest in keeping the neighborhood safe.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

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  20. #45

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    One more way for the new government to make money: sell URLs under the domain name ".HI" (like Tuvalu has made money selling domain names with .TV at the end).

    It's probably also useful to learn some lessons from other Pacific Island economies (i.e., no sense reinventing the wheel or getting burned twice). Hawai'i could also become an offshore tax haven for Americans.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; May 8th, 2007 at 04:53 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  21. #46

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    One more way for the new government to make money: sell URLs under the domain name ".HI" (like Tuvalu has made money selling domain names with .TV at the end).

    It's probably also useful to learn some lessons from other Pacific Island economies (i.e., no sense reinventing the wheel or getting burned twice). Hawai'i could also become an offshore tax haven for Americans.

    Miulang
    That could be good or bad depending on how well a new government operates without corruption. Selling domain names and being a tax haven can invite organized crime and rogue nation agents.

  22. #47

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    That could be good or bad depending on how well a new government operates without corruption. Selling domain names and being a tax haven can invite organized crime and rogue nation agents.
    heheheheh. I didn't say they were necessarily good ideas, only that they were ideas because everyone is wringing their hands that they don't have a clue how an independent Hawai'i could survive economically.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Possible economics: Microalgae farming, sea salt harvesting, deep salt water desalinization...all would utilize resources that are fairly easy to come by and don't require super complex mechanisms to work. And the products could either be used in Hawai'i or sold abroad. In fact, the new government wouldn't even have to do the work: sell leases to the rights to grow the microalgae, harvest the salt and the water and share the profits with the people.

    Miulang
    Just finished reading Native Daughter because of a discussion on this form. Ms. Trask comes across militant but quite frankly I agreed with almost everything she said. And btw I didn’t get the impressions that she was against ALL “holes”, what I did come away with is the notion that she is fully aware of the rape of her native land and her people by imperialist domination of her precious culture and she is angry. And yes, tourism is not the only economic answer for Hawaii to survive as a nation as mentioned above. Natural resources are there, but people are so conditioned to think they need more than they do to be happy. Once they become part of a consumer driven culture it’s all down hill because they can never get enough to make them happy. The economic suggestions made by Miulang are extremely do able.

    This subject is enormously sensitive to me due to my compassion for Tibet and her people. There are many similarities between Tibet and Hawaii. I also got the impression that Ms. Trask feels that Haole is a state of mind more than an ethnic representation. Still trying to really understand the Sovereignty Movement however, the more I read and research the more inclined I am to side with the Nationalist Movement.
    "When you dance there are two of you, your spiritual self and your physical self. The spirit has to dance." ~ Aunty Mae Ulalia Loebenstein

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by greentara View Post
    Just finished reading Native Daughter because of a discussion on this form. Ms. Trask comes across militant but quite frankly I agreed with almost everything she said. And btw I didn’t get the impressions that she was against ALL “holes”, what I did come away with is the notion that she is fully aware of the rape of her native land and her people by imperialist domination of her precious culture and she is angry. And yes, tourism is not the only economic answer for Hawaii to survive as a nation as mentioned above. Natural resources are there, but people are so conditioned to think they need more than they do to be happy. Once they become part of a consumer driven culture it’s all down hill because they can never get enough to make them happy. The economic suggestions made by Miulang are extremely do able.

    This subject is enormously sensitive to me due to my compassion for Tibet and her people. There are many similarities between Tibet and Hawaii. I also got the impression that Ms. Trask feels that Haole is a state of mind more than an ethnic representation. Still trying to really understand the Sovereignty Movement however, the more I read and research the more inclined I am to side with the Nationalist Movement.
    The mention of Haunani-Kay Trask reminds me of a certain Wai'anae-based, kanaka maoli attorney who's been somewhat overshadowed. Here's a another link that might prove educational...
    http://www.opihi.com/sovereignty/
    Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū ā ē ī ō ū -- Just a little something to "cut and paste."

  25. #50

    Default Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah K View Post
    The mention of Haunani-Kay Trask reminds me of a certain Wai'anae-based, kanaka maoli attorney who's been somewhat overshadowed. Here's a another link that might prove educational...
    http://www.opihi.com/sovereignty/
    Unless he has changed his mind recently, Poka Laenui thinks the Akaka Bill is still a way to preserve current kanaka maoli entitlements while continuing the fight for eventual sovereignty. Many pro-sovereignty advocates reject this path entirely, claiming the Akaka Bill does not guarantee the current entitlement programs and totally ends the promise of sovereignty because of the clause that states that passage of the Akaka Bill ends all future claims against the US.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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