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Thread: Hawaiian grammar discussions

  1. #1

    Default Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Anyone here study Hawaiian language and have any topics they'd like to discuss.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    e like ho'i me....?

    pax

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    e like ho'i me....?
    'A'ole ho'ohaiki 'ia ka ninau a me ke kuka 'ana ma 'ane'i no ka po'e o ho'okahi wale no 'ano a kulana paha, aka, he noa ia i ka po'e a pau. Ina no na'e 'a'ohe ou mana'o kukulu e ho'okomo mai ai i 'ane'i i mea e ho'one'emua ai i na pahuhopu o keia lopi, a laila, i mea aha kau pohi?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Aloha mai. I am studying 'olelo Hawai'i but I am not that fluent. I would like to have some help with the language especially when I am writing a leka uila. Please either email me or PM me. Mahalo nui.
    Aloha Kakou, maluhia a me aloha mau loa (Hello everyone, peace and love forever)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Instead of making a new Hawaiian language related thread for this, I decided to save the board some space and place this here. It's just for fun, of course .

    I was just browsing around on the internet, and I came upon this site http://www.alohafriendsluau.com/words.html. The site is cute and well intentioned. But it has a section on Hawaiian language, which includes a brief overview of pronounciation, a vocabulary list, and a list of "popular Hawaiian phrases." The phrases, however, are apparently just put together without any understanding of even a little bit of Hawaiian. A look at the phrases below, such as the example of the possessive "Taylor's" from English being rendered in Hawaiian as "Taylor's" with the -'s in the same way that it is done in English, show that the writers may have believed that Hawaiian sentences could be formed by simply substituting Hawaiian words for English ones. All in all, the rendering of Hawaiian shown on the site is funny for Hawaiian speakers to read.

    Remember, this is just for fun .

    Please join us: Ho'olu komo la kaua

    Come celebrate: Hele mei hoohiwahiwa

    Come celebrate Taylor's first birthday: Hele me hoohiwahiwa Taylor’s mua loa la hanau

    Come celebrate Joe’s 30th birthday: Hele me hoohiwahiwa Joe’s 30th la hanau

    Come celebrate the wedding of Bob & Sue : Hele mei hoohiwahiwa Bob a me Sue’s la male’ana

    Come celebrate our wedding day: Hele mei hoohiwahiwa ko maua la male 'ana

    Come celebrate Jack & Jill's 25th Anniversary: Hele me hoohiwahiwa Jack & Jill's 25th la ho'omana'o

    Come celebrate George's retirement: Hele me hoohiwahiwa George's ho'omaha loa

    Come celebrate Sharilyn's promotion: Hele me hoohiwahiwa Sharilyn's ho'opi'i

    Come to Tiffany's baby shower luau: Hale mai Tiffany's pepe kuaua luau

    Thank you for celebrating with us: Mahalo nui loa na ho'olaule'a me la kaua
    I'm not admonishing the writers. I actually like the phrases because their funny. It would be like me writing something like this:

    I was just browsing around on the internet, and I came upon this site: wau ua wale no maka'ika'i e ___ ana a puni ma luna ka punaewele puni honua, a me au hele mai ma luna keia kahua.
    I ka wā i laulaha ai ka ‘apa‘apa, he hana ho‘āuhuli ka ‘ōlelo ‘ana me ka ‘oia‘i‘o.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Aloha mai kaua e 'i'iwipolena, pehea 'oe? ua maika'i no. mahalo. Mahalo nui loa for the link for the website. I have to say that I like going to that website because its funny. Me ke aloha pumehana, e malama pono. ke akua pu. A hui hou.

    Alana
    Aloha Kakou, maluhia a me aloha mau loa (Hello everyone, peace and love forever)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    auwweeeee *bashes maka me pohaku* crack up ia'u iho.

    pax

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by achow View Post
    Aloha mai kaua e 'i'iwipolena, pehea 'oe? ua maika'i no. mahalo. Mahalo nui loa for the link for the website. I have to say that I like going to that website because its funny. Me ke aloha pumehana, e malama pono. ke akua pu. A hui hou.

    Alana
    It is not that funny in my opinion. I truly believe the Hawaiian language should be preserved and therefore spoken and written correctly by all who want to use it.

    Hiki mai, I was wondering, would someone be so 'olu'olu as to post the different ways to say our, you guys', and their and tell me how each one would be used? I've heard that it depends on whether or not the word is in the ka or ke class and how many people own the noun being described. I already know the words for my, your (singular), and his/her.
    'Alika

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by akrauth View Post
    It is not that funny in my opinion. I truly believe the Hawaiian language should be preserved and therefore spoken and written correctly by all who want to use it.
    Aloha kāua e Akrauth,

    I understand how you feel. I, too, am a firm believer that the Hawaiian language should be taken seriously by those who want to use it. Sometimes, if I come across mistakes, like someone trying to say ua ____ ana, or trying to use the indefinite article he after a preposition besides me (with), I take into account that the person is trying to learn and use the language, so I respect them for that; we all make mistakes. However, if someone might deside to intentionally make fun of the language, like putting together a list of nonsensical words, many of which don't exist in the language, then I might be tempted to be offended. In a different scenario, though, like the one mentioned in my last post above where writers for a website attempted to peace together Hawaiian language sentences with, perhaps, the aid of a dictionary and no knowledge of any of the language's sentence patterns and grammatical rules, I feel like I have to laugh a little. I can't believe that there are people who are intelligent enough to set up a website, but not bright enough to realize that one can't simply substitute Hawaiian words for the words in an English sentence in order to produce a proper sentence in the Hawaiian language (But then again, maybe I overestimate the intelligence needed to make a website). The same goes for just about every natural language.

    Quote Originally Posted by akrauth
    Hiki mai, I was wondering, would someone be so 'olu'olu as to post the different ways to say our, you guys', and their and tell me how each one would be used? I've heard that it depends on whether or not the word is in the ka or ke class and how many people own the noun being described. I already know the words for my, your (singular), and his/her.
    It does not depend on whether or not the word is in the ka or ke class. It is true that ke and ka are different forms of the singular definite article, and that whether a noun takes ke or whether it takes ka depends on what letter the noun begins with, but that difference does not affect possessives. Ka is used before words beginning with I, U, H, L, M, N, P, W, and the ‘Okina. Ke is used when the noun begins with K, E, A, and O, and some words beginning with P and the ‘Okina; there are some words beginning with other letters that can be preceded by Ke, and they are usually indicated in the Hawaiian Dictionary (i.e. Ke hoa, Ke mele).

    What you might mean is whether or not the noun is used with A-class or O-class possessives. To a good degree, whether or not A-class or O-class possessives are used depends more on the nature of the relationship between the possessor and the thing possessed than on what kind of noun it is. A-class possessives indicate that the possessor has an alienable possession over what is possessed, or in other words, the possessor has choice over possessing or not possessing the thing possessed, or that the possessor can initiate or terminate its possession over what is possessed. O-class possessives indicate inalienable possession, where the possessor has no choice in possessing the object, such as parents and body parts, or inherits what is possessed. There are other factors, too. Houses, canoes, land, and adzes often are possessed with O-class possessives, because in Hawaiian culture these things were inherited. Vehicles are also often possessed with O-class possessives, which EP (Hawaiian Grammar by Elbert and Pukui) suggested may be due to the “analogy with canoe.” In a family, people of the same generation or higher are possessed with O-class, and family members of lower generations are possessed with A-class, even nieces and nephews.

    EP outlines three types of possessives: K-possessives (which begin with K), ø-possessives (without K) [also written as Zero-possessives], and N-possessives (which begin with N). For now, I will discuss K-possessives.

    K-possessives: According to Dr. Emily Hawkins’ paper Determiners: Articles and Demonstratives, the K-possessives "can be considered to be derived from the k of the article ke/ka [sic] and a phrase beginning with an attributive or possessive preposition." In the same paper, she goes on to describe the pattern for the formation of the possessives,

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Hawkins
    k + a lāua = kā lāua
    k + o lākou = ko lākou
    k + a ‘oukou = kā ‘oukou
    k + o ‘olua = ko ‘olua
    k + a – na = kāna
    k + o – u = kou
    k + a – ‘u = ka‘u
    Note that this pattern is present in other Polynesian languages. For example, in New Zealand Māori, where Te is the singular definite article, they have Tāku, Tāu, Tāna, Tā tāua, etc. And in Samoan, where Le is the singular definite article, they have La‘u, Lau, Lana, etc (although I’m unsure of the vowel length for these). So, when she says that the formation of Hawaiian possessives can be looked at as the K from ke/ka combining with an attributive or possessive preposition, she doesn’t mean that this pattern originated in the Hawaiian language; she means that these possessives can be analyzed as such.

    K-possessives begin with the letter K, as described above. For the first person singular, second person singular, and third person singular, they are (1) ka'u, ko'u; (2) kāu, kou; (3) kāna, kona. Also, note that there exist two k-possessives that do not fall into a-class or o-class, and they often imply affection: Ku'u (my, first person singular) and Kō (your, second person singular).

    All other K-possessives are formed by placing or Ko in front of the possessor; this is true even for all pronouns excluding the first person singular and the second person singular. For example:

    1. Mike's house = Ko Mike hale.
    2. The neigbor's house = Ko ka hoa noho hale.
    3. My mom's house = Ko ko'u makuahine hale.
    Last edited by 'i'iwipolena; July 28th, 2007 at 05:09 AM.
    I ka wā i laulaha ai ka ‘apa‘apa, he hana ho‘āuhuli ka ‘ōlelo ‘ana me ka ‘oia‘i‘o.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    (continued)

    In order to show that what is possessed is plural, the plural marker mau is placed directly after the possessor. (Note that when some words are made plural, the third to the last vowel is lengthened. This happens when certain pluralized nouns are pluralized with the help of plural markers, like mau or po'e. But there are exceptions. To illustrate, kānaka (people), which is the plural of kanaka (person, man), is sometimes used with in its plural form without any plural markers or even determiners, for that matter. Pono 'ole kēia mau mea i kānaka ke 'ai [These are not good for people to eat]).For example:

    1. Mike's houses = Ko Mike mau hale.
    2. The neighbor's houses = Ko ka hoa noho mau hale.
    3. My mom's houses = Ko ko'u makuahine mau hale.
    4. My parents' houses = Ko ko'u mau mākua mau hale.
    5. My houses = Ko'u mau hale.

    A noun, po'e is also used to show that what is possessed is plural, but it is most commonly used with living things, and it follows mau if mau is used.

    1. My people = Ko'u (mau) po'e kānaka.
    2. My ancestors = Ko'u (mau) po'e kūpuna.
    3. My friends = Ko'u (mau) po'e hoa.

    Another option to show that what is possessed is plural is to delete the K from the possessive, since it comes from the singular definite article. When this is done, the plural marker mau is optional. As of now, I am not sure if this k-deletion to form plurals when preposed can be used with anything other than the possessives formed with pronouns. For example:

    1. My parents = O'u makua.
    2. Their (dual) house = O lāua hale.

    Here is a list of possessive pronouns:
    ko'u - my (preposed o-class possessive).
    ka'u - my (preposed a-class possessive).
    ku'u - my afectionate/dear/beloved (preposed possessive, neutral to "a-class" and "o-class" possessives, and this has no k-less or n-possessive form).
    kou - your (preposed o-class possessive).
    kāu - your (preposed a-class possessive).
    - your affectionate/dear/beloved (preposed possessive, neutral to "a-class" and "o-class" possessives, and has no k-less or n-possessive form).
    kona - his,her (preposed o-class possessive).
    kāna - his, her (preposed a-class possessive).
    ko ia nei/lā/ala - his, her (preposed o-class possessive).
    kā ia nei/lā/ala - his, her (preposed a-class possessive).
    ko ha'i - someone else's (preposed o-class possessive).
    kā ha'i - someone else's (preposed a-class possessive).
    ko kāua - our (dual inclusive, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā kāua - our (dual inclusive, preposed a-class possssive).
    ko kākou - our (plural inclusive, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā kākou - our (plural inclusive, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko māua - our (dual exclusive, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā māua - our (dual exclusive, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko mākou - our (plural exclusive, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā mākou - our (plural exclusive, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko 'olua - your (dual, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā 'olua - your (dual, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko 'oukou - your (plural, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā 'oukou - your (plural, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko lāua - their (dual, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā lāua - their (dual, preposed a-class possessive).
    ko lākou - their (plural, preposed o-class possessive).
    kā lākou - their (plural, preposed a-class possessive).
    Contrasts between meanings of A and O-class possessives:

    1. Ka'u hale = My house (which I built).
    2. Ko'u hale = My house (which I live in).
    3. Kā lāua mele = their (dual) song (which they wrote).
    4. Ko lāua mele = their (dual) song (which was written about them or in honor of them).
    5. Kā Mike make = Mike's death (which he caused to happen to someone else, through murder, etc.
    6. Ko Mike make = Mike's death (his own death).
    7. Kā ka 'īlio iwi = The dog's bone (which it eats, plays with, etc.)
    8. Ko ka 'īlio iwi = The dog's bone (its own bone from its body)
    Last edited by 'i'iwipolena; July 28th, 2007 at 05:28 AM.
    I ka wā i laulaha ai ka ‘apa‘apa, he hana ho‘āuhuli ka ‘ōlelo ‘ana me ka ‘oia‘i‘o.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Hawaiian grammar discussions

    Mahalo nui loa. That helped a lot. Would love to just practice with you one on one. Are you in?
    Last edited by akrauth; July 28th, 2007 at 10:45 AM.
    'Alika

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