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Thread: Translation Help

  1. #1

    Question Translation Help

    How would I say "Children of Lili'uokalani" in Hawai'ian? Would it just be "Lili'uokalani Keiki"? Would that work for a group of kids that were in their teens? Or is Keiki strictly for very young children? Also, I don't know how to construct the possessive form for a word. Any help would be great. Mahalo!
    Last edited by verdant75; June 13th, 2007 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Translation Help

    "Nā Keiki O Liliʻuokalani" would be the most typical translation, I think. Or you might use "mamo" or "kamaliʻi" instead of "keiki", depending on your intended connotation.

    Who exactly are these people you're planning to label in this way? When you say "children of", what's the nature of the relationship? Clearly you don't mean that they are actual blood descendants of Liliʻuokalani, because she didn't have any.

    And by the way, the word "Hawaiian" is a word of the English language, rather than a word of ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, so it is not written with an ʻokina.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Thanks Glen!

    I meant the phrase as an homage to Lili'uokalani, with "children" used in the spiritual sense. It's a possible name for a high school club on the mainland with kids from Hawai'i. Regardless of the different views of Hawaiian annexation, I wanted a name that recognized the last Hawaiian monarch. And thanks for also clearing up the bit with the okina .
    Last edited by verdant75; June 13th, 2007 at 01:42 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
    "Nā Keiki O Liliʻuokalani" would be the most typical translation, I think. Or you might use "mamo" or "kamaliʻi" instead of "keiki", depending on your intended connotation.

    Who exactly are these people you're planning to label in this way? When you say "children of", what's the nature of the relationship? Clearly you don't mean that they are actual blood descendants of Liliʻuokalani, because she didn't have any.

    And by the way, the word "Hawaiian" is a word of the English language, rather than a word of ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, so it is not written with an ʻokina.
    This is an interesting discussion. However, with the exception of a possessor being a place, I have seldom seen keiki used with an O-class possessive. A search through the Hawaiian language newspaper database further supports this observation http://nupepa.org/gsdl2.5/cgi-bin/nu...=%22keiki+o%22. Rather, A-class possessives are usually used with keiki.

    It would be more common to say Nā Keiki a Liliʻuokalani, or Kā Lili'uokalani mau keiki .
    Last edited by 'i'iwipolena; June 13th, 2007 at 07:32 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Translation Help

    I recall this case, where the "o" is used.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by 'i'iwipolena View Post
    This is an interesting discussion. However, with the exception of a possessor being a place, I have seldom seen keiki used with an O-class possessive. A search through the Hawaiian language newspaper database further supports this observation http://nupepa.org/gsdl2.5/cgi-bin/nu...=%22keiki+o%22. Rather, A-class possessives are usually used with keiki.

    It would be more common to say Nā Keiki a Liliʻuokalani, or Kā Lili'uokalani mau keiki .
    I defer to those who actually speak the language. I'm just a Kepanī boy who wants to respect those who were here before me.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    I recall this case, where the "o" is used.
    Oh, yes. This is interesting. The name of the albulm is Nā Keiki o Kamehameha. Perhaps the O-class possessive is used here because the possessor is an inanimate organization. However, there is also a scholarship named Nā Ho'okama a Pauahi.
    Last edited by 'i'iwipolena; June 13th, 2007 at 10:06 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by 'i'iwipolena View Post
    Oh, yes. This is interesting. The name of the albulm is Nā Keiki o Kamehameha. Perhaps the O-class possessive is used here because the possessor is an inanimate organization. However, there is also a scholarship named Nā Ho'okama a Pauahi.
    That's a very good point; perhaps the posessive varies for that reason - my knowledge of the language isn't deep enough to be certain. It's possible either usage cited is acceptable. Prior to this discussion, I'd have leaned toward "o" (based on its organizational usage not only for this album, but in hula halau names as well), but I wouldn't stake anything on it.

    Now I know why verdant75 isn't sure what to say. Perhaps, with a limited knowledge of ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, it would be wiser (as a mainland-based group) to stick with an English name at present, until an expert can give them an assuredly accurate translation. Are there any members in said club who are fluent?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Thanks for the input everyone . If I went with "Mamo" instead of "Keiki," would that have a more certain sentence construction?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Translation Help

    I suppose I should elaborate on why I'm looking for such a specific name. I'm the creator of the independent comic book, "Pride High," which was first released in September of 2006. The story is set at the fictional "Poseidon Preparatory Academy," a school for super-powered youth on the West Coast.



    Part of the plot centers on the school’s Inter-Squad Championship (“I.S.C.”). The year-long event pits squads of five against each other through grades, community service, and direct combat exercises. The winning team is granted a summer internship with an established organization of adult superheroes, similar to “The Justice League” and “The Avengers.” Since acceptance into a renowned supergroup is the goal for a majority of the students, the guaranteed internship through the I.S.C. is a fiercely contested prize.

    The competing I.S.C. squads all have various themes, including power type, geographic origin, ethnic heritage, and extracurricular interests. “Pride High” is the name of the protagonists’ squad, with the theme of a gay-straight alliance (“GSA”). This mirrors the extracurricular clubs in real life that serve as a safe-space for gay teens and their allies in sometimes hostile school environments.

    One of the supporting characters is Pele:

    Featured on the covers of Issues 1 & 3, she's a volcanic heroine who was born on the 113th anniversary of the coup that deposed Queen Lili'uokalani. She's the leader of a rival (but friendly) squad, whose teammates are all from Hawai'i. The squad name I came up with was "Children of Lili'uokalani," but I was pressed for time last year and had to submit to the printing press before I could get an accurate translation. So I decided to just wing it and put "Lili'uokalani" as the name of the group in print, with the understanding that this was just the shortened version of the full group name, which I would add later. It's now a year later, so I wanted to get some help before I complete the script for Issue 7 .

    Anyway, that's pretty much everything in a nutshell. I would've elaborated earlier, but I hesitate to talk about my work on sites where comic books or LGBT projects might be deemed off-topic.
    Last edited by verdant75; June 14th, 2007 at 10:11 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Translation Help

    WTF??

    Pele and Lili'u, eh? And are you going to make all the LGBT kids see the light and turn straight? Not. Cool. Drown Pele and overthrow the club, or do what you have to and kill those characters off quick, please.

    pax

  12. #12

    Default Re: Translation Help

    I'm wondering if you misread gay-straight for gay-to-straight?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay-straight_alliance

    The LGBT members of the cast won't be going through any conversion process. They're happy with who they are.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Thanks for the input everyone . If I went with "Mamo" instead of "Keiki," would that have a more certain sentence construction?
    It would be A-class as well.
    Why did you go with mamo instead of keiki? Now it means "descendants of Lili'u." Are you claiming the students to be direct descendants of Hawaiian royalty? Not a good call in the naming department.

    That's a very good point; perhaps the posessive varies for that reason - my knowledge of the language isn't deep enough to be certain. It's possible either usage cited is acceptable. Prior to this discussion, I'd have leaned toward "o" (based on its organizational usage not only for this album, but in hula halau names as well), but I wouldn't stake anything on it.
    Using an O-class possessive is very rare with the word keiki, just as using an A-class possessive is very rare with makuakane, makuahine, kaikua'ana, kaikaina, poki'i, kaikunane, and kaikuahine.

    I would not use O-class possessives for child. Are you aware of the difference between A and O-class possession in Hawaiian?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Whoops! I misread that! I'll stick with Keiki. Thanks .

  15. #15

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by verdant75 View Post
    I'm wondering if you misread gay-straight for gay-to-straight?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay-straight_alliance

    The LGBT members of the cast won't be going through any conversion process. They're happy with who they are.
    they will be a lot happier with who they are than our goddess and queen having their mana spilled upon the whims of an artist's imagination. Seriously, you should compel your own imagination to come up with unique characters with their own unique names and magical talents, or whatever the point of your comic is. Not our queen. Not our goddess.

    pax

  16. #16

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Because you have wound Lili'uokalani's name, the goddess Pele's name, and Mary Kawena Puku'is last name into the names of a squad and its characters into your comic book, and because you are now asking for the translation of "children of Lili'uokalani" as the potential name for a fictional highschool in your comic book, get ready to face a lot of opposition from Hawaiian circles, as some people will find it offensive. You could eliminate a lot of this by picking new names for the Hawaiian characters. If the naming is grammatically incorrect, or offensive as it is now, it will be criticized for all eternity by those involved in Hawaiian culture and language.

    1) Talk to an authority on the language at the University of Hawai'i.
    2) Have him or her help you come up with new names for your characters, and to help revise the name of your potential school.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Translation Help

    Hanacoocooleilei!!! Dis is only dee beginning!!!

    What you did is inexcusable!!

    Auntie Lynn
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Hi all,

    Just to clear up any confusion, "Children of Lili'uokalani" wasn't the proposed name of the school. It was the possible name of one group of five kids at the fictional school known as "Poseidon Preparatory Academy." The title of the comic book, "Pride High," also doesn't refer to a whole high school, but rather the name of another group of five kids at Poseidon Preparatory Academy. The Hawaiian students in the story are supporting characters and not the main focus of the story. The names were chosen as homages, but I am sorry for the cultural insensitivity. It was not intentional.

    Currently I am in the middle of a production run and can't make changes to the single editions. However I will be compiling Issues 1-7 in the Fall into a single volume, at which point I can make changes from start to finish. What are some possible names that you would like to see for the Hawaiian squad? Pua'i Mana'o suggested "Na niu 'opio."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o
    Think instead of the niu, the coconut. It is very Hawaiian. It is also very Polynesian, in fact all of our Polynesian brethren use the same word, niu, for the coconut. The niu is renown in our lore for floating away, able to carry within it its essence to live again when it survives the treachery of the kai and moana to reach its rightful shores, planting itself and growing tall and regal, giving of itself the finest and sweetest water and fruit.

    I would name the hui "Na niu 'opio" (the young coconuts). If ever someone sees that derisively, such as "brown on the outside white on the inside", remind them that that is a very western way of thinking, and the nobility of the niu looooooong precedes silly modern concepts. The niu has travelled for generations and generations, and no decent beach--or yard--is complete without a kumu niu (coconut tree).
    The character Pele was never meant to be the goddess herself, but rather a young girl with extraordinary, fire-based powers. A friend of mine suggested "Kiluaea" as a better homage and metaphor for the young girl's connection with the goddess. However, I can see how that too might be offensive. What names would work better in your opinion?

    All of the supporting characters of the comic book could easily have been drawn from the standard white, North American archetypes. But as a multiracial individual, I wanted to step beyond that trend and present a wide variety of kids from different backgrounds. Obviously, the danger in doing so is to stumble in presentation from inadequate cultural understanding. I wanted to err on the side of inclusion, however, I now understand I should've asked these questions a lot earlier. As in a year ago. Well, as they say, hindsight is 20/20 . I do appreciate your input and thank you for helping me so far.
    Last edited by verdant75; June 14th, 2007 at 04:20 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Translation Help

    There you go...you're back on track!

    Good luck

    Auntie Lynn
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by verdant75 View Post
    Hi all,

    Just to clear up any confusion, "Children of Lili'uokalani" wasn't the proposed name of the school. It was the possible name of one group of five kids at the fictional school known as "Poseidon Preparatory Academy." The title of the comic book, "Pride High," also doesn't refer to a whole high school, but rather the name of another group of five kids at Poseidon Preparatory Academy. The Hawaiian students in the story are supporting characters and not the main focus of the story. The names were chosen as homages, but I am sorry for the cultural insensitivity. It was not intentional.

    Currently I am in the middle of a production run and can't make changes to the single editions. However I will be compiling Issues 1-7 in the Fall into a single volume, at which point I can make changes from start to finish. What are some possible names that you would like to see for the Hawaiian squad? Pua'i Mana'o suggested "Na niu 'opio."



    The character Pele was never meant to be the goddess herself, but rather a young girl with extraordinary, fire-based powers. A friend of mine suggested "Kiluaea" as a better homage and metaphor for the young girl's connection with the goddess. However, I can see how that too might be offensive. What names would work better in your opinion?

    All of the supporting characters of the comic book could easily have been drawn from the standard white, North American archetypes. But as a multiracial individual, I wanted to step beyond that trend and present a wide variety of kids from different backgrounds. Obviously, the danger in doing so is to stumble in presentation from inadequate cultural understanding. I wanted to err on the side of inclusion, however, I now understand I should've asked these questions a lot earlier. As in a year ago. Well, as they say, hindsight is 20/20 . I do appreciate your input and thank you for helping me so far.
    mahalo for being solution-oriented in this. Let's keep on that track:

    fire-based females, for lack of a better description, is not a Hawaiian behavior. It is the specific domain of one of our goddesses, and for many of us, myself included, we mahalo her for her role in our history and her place in our genealogy and we don't see her as a mythological creature, as what that means when such term is used. To see a Hawaiian woman do anything honoring the elementals of fire would be to view her behavior as specific to Pele herself.

    I really would, in your shoes, make up the ancestral lands from which they hail. This is sci-fi we are talking here. You don't want living cultures and their irate members to get in the way of your goal, which is to make great stories. Borne them from ice, and the deepest trenches, and valleys below sea level and levels that share, but do not cross realms because of size and perception--the atomic level, the chemical level, the cellular level, etc.

    Enjoy as you do, but steer clear of living cultures.

    pax

  21. #21

    Default Re: Translation Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    I really would, in your shoes, make up the ancestral lands from which they hail ... steer clear of living cultures.
    NOW you're talking. A successful formula for writers from Tolkien to LeGuin, among others.

    verdant75, it may be too late to do anything with the single edition runs, but you can make these changes by the fall compilation. (Then, of course, the early editions become collector's items...)

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Translation Help

    Pomaika'i on your story. Still need help with inoa? Email me.
    'Alika

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