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Women in a man's world - What are your views?

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  • #76
    Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

    one of my last statements on that big quote thread was
    "It is upon their backs, and yes, even the noise of the fringe that allows for our generation the latitude to teach our daughters the limits to which they may aspire. May we never, ever, ever throw that baby out with the bath water."
    As for all of your statements, I do not follow those writers, but I did Andrea Dworkin's work and had read before about the misquote. I learned about Dworkin when I took an avid interest in the anti-pornography movement. She was very outspoken on the subject, which was dear to my heart due to that I saw both of my college roommates get sucked into that world. Naive young women, good backgrounds, balancing the lure of mean money against their morals. The money won out. Neither woman is alive today.

    pax

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    • #77
      Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

      I apologize to the moderators for the double posting. I didn't realize just how long we can edit things into our posts, so I put those quotes in a new one.

      I am glad she was against porn, but.....very radical quotes are attributed to her, and I just picked a few.
      Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

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      • #78
        Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

        Originally posted by Karen
        Wow, it's a wonder Dworkin didn't...say that! Brainyquote.com has some quotes that are reportedly hers...

        Pretty radical stuff~
        if you click on the link above, it addresses them at length.

        pax

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        • #79
          Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

          I don't see any link above, in your post, but I do seriously doubt that "addressing" this radicalism could somehow make it better than it is. However, I'm open minded and sure, I'll read what else she had to say, if it's her saying it, and not someone talking ABOUT her and trying to make her radicalism seem okay.

          Oh! your link in a previous post, betcha! LOL at myself...will click and see if it's her speaking. thanks
          Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

            http://radgeek.com/gt/2006/02/19/misquotation_in

            "Quotations to that effect have been incorrectly attributed to both Dworkin or MacKinnon, who never said those words and denied that they believed it when asked. Interpretations of their extensive and nuanced work on intercourse, rape, patriarchy, consent, coercion, men, women, and sexual ethics (which you can find elaborated in detail in, among other places, Dworkin’s book Intercourse and Chapter 9 of MacKinnon’s Toward a Feminist Theory of the State) that claim to find the view written between the lines have repeatedly been made on the basis of selective quotation, wilful misreading, and downright gossip. These facts have been repeatedly pointed out, not least by the authors themselves, but also by a lot of other people, over and over again. And yet the charade goes on."

            read the whole page.

            =====
            edited to add: at one time I owned a copy of AD's book Intercourse (not that I know where that copy went). She spoke radically yes. Some stuff was too mindblowing for me to wrap around. But after reading it, I didn't think she was angry at men. She was outraged at the exploitation of women and children.

            I wasn't raised around people who had that conversation. But even so, it wasn't something that I didn't deserve to hear. It wasn't above me. It was genuine and worth learning about. It gave me some tools and the rest? As with anything, one should take the good where it exists, and disregard the rest. AD does not walk in my shoes and I do not need to defend her. That said, it is worthy to note that when it comes to anti-feminist rhetoric, Dworkin's name is always dropped.
            Last edited by Pua'i Mana'o; July 25, 2007, 05:24 PM.

            pax

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            • #81
              Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

              This does not account for all of the quotes that brainyquote.com has of hers. It simply addresses the truth that any public figure can be, and often is, misquoted, from the most radical to the most conservative.

              Sadly, she's only one of many feminists with a platform, and many of which are radical. They are the ones that, some of which I quoted earlier and they do great harm to true feminism, and they are the reason Rush Limbaugh was right-on when he coined "feminazis." They do exist and they are a big problem, just like hypocrite chritians have greatly damaged the real thing.
              Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                Originally posted by Karen View Post
                This does not account for all of the quotes that brainyquote.com has of hers. It simply addresses the truth that any public figure can be, and often is, misquoted, from the most radical to the most conservative.

                Sadly, she's only one of many feminists with a platform, and many of which are radical. They are the ones that, some of which I quoted earlier and they do great harm to true feminism, and they are the reason Rush Limbaugh was right-on when he coined "feminazis." They do exist and they are a big problem, just like hypocrite chritians have greatly damaged the real thing.
                Ok.

                So where are we?

                Do we agree that feminism is a noble movement with great impact upon humanity, or is it the bastion of feminazis to be disregarded as a blight upon humanity?

                Boiled down, is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

                pax

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                  Hmm....it is both. We have both. Seems the fish always rots from the head down, so the old cliche went that I heard as I grew up.

                  Churches at the head can be horribly corrupt, yet the individual members be the most precious souls on earth.

                  Govts. can be horribly corrupt yet the individual, tax paying citizens be wonderful people and citizens of the earth.

                  Seems some of the elite in the feminist movement are radical and truly feminazis while millions of wonderful gals like those of us here at HT are true ladies and as strong as we should be, and have a right to be.

                  I don't see how we can deny both types of feminists exist, and both wear the same label.
                  Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                    nice dodge, there. Would you have the same struggle if I posed the question, "is Christianity a good thing or a bad thing?" Methinks not.

                    Is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

                    Are the rights worth it? The freedoms worth it? Family Medical Leave Act that allows for fathers and mothers leave from work while protecting their jobs after the birth/adoption of their child? Childcare tax credits (this includes after school care up until 13) and Dependent Care credits (for taking care of your elderly parents with your out-of-pocket expenses)?

                    Or did it just breed some more lesbians?

                    pax

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                    • #85
                      Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                      There is no dodge, but truth and wisdom in what I said. You just don't like it, apparently.

                      Sorry, to continue....no, I would speak the same. Christianity has a good and a bad side. If you ask one person if it is good and they've been hammered by hypocrites, then "christianity" is bad, to them. If you ask someone that has been neighbors with a true christian, yada yada, then it is a good thing, to them, but what about the leaders of the movement? what about their lobbying efforts? Is christianity, today.......good or bad? tell ya what, if and when you can find the REAL thing, then it's good. I see a ton of fake christianity, and know a few that seem to be real, the individuals.

                      Are the rights worth it? I've spoken up, lobbied and fought all of my life for only what was "worth it." We have good feminists on HT here, did I not say? that doesn't give you a hint how I feel about feminism? or you just wanted me to say more, in hoping I'd say something you could find fault with?
                      Last edited by Karen; July 25, 2007, 05:48 PM.
                      Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                        I am going to avoid the whole quote discussion. But I do want to touch on the use of the word "feminism" It is true that the word has taken on a very negative feel to it. I can remember as a little girl, my Grandma telling me of the feminist struggle her mother fought for (yes, alongside Susan B. Anthony). In those days, they were proud to call themselves feminists. As time went on, a new term and ideal of equality took over - communism. Both my grandparents were proud, card-carrying members in the 20's. That term too, took on a very ugly connotation. The ideals that movement was built on was lost forever in the cold war. The term feminist made a resurgence in the 60's, but had a very different feel to it, even then.

                        Grandma's advice? Never mind what you call it, it is the ideals that you must live by. If you live it and make that example to your children, they too will live by those ideals. And in this way, the ideals of both feminism and comunism will live on forever. I am not sure if those were her exact words, but the idea is there.

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                        • #87
                          Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                          Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
                          Ok.

                          So where are we?

                          Do we agree that feminism is a noble movement with great impact upon humanity, or is it the bastion of feminazis to be disregarded as a blight upon humanity?

                          Boiled down, is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?
                          I believe that Feminism was/is a necessary movement for the proper growth of human intellect. That said...

                          I also believe the "Pendulum" has swung past equality in many ways, leaving men at a loss. There are laws, rules and other anti-male regulations now in place that restrict their rights. To their children, their homes, etc.
                          Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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                          • #88
                            Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                            Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
                            I believe that Feminism was/is a necessary movement for the proper growth of human intellect. That said...

                            I also believe the "Pendulum" has swung past equality in many ways, leaving men at a loss. There are laws, rules and other anti-male regulations now in place that restrict their rights. To their children, their homes, etc.
                            sucks to be on the receiving end, don't it?

                            if you (you individually, and also you as part of your gender) felt the way you do now--which is a situation men have "suffered" for 50 years, at most--imagine being at a "loss" about your rights to children, property, your body, etc. for the next two thousand years. is it not reasonable that maybe some of you would end up having rather "radical" theories and points of view about it?

                            this is my (and anapuni's and pua`i mana`o's) point. men are dealing with a "pendulum swing" that has lasted, really, only since the baby boomers came into existence. and look how vociferously you guys protest the fact that SOMETIMES women are given preferential treatment over men regarding children, property, money, the assumption of whether one was raped or not. you suffered this for the lifetime of ONLY one generation. that's it.

                            whereas we women have had to take this bullshit for eons, ever since eve offered the apple to adam, and he took it of his own free will but (typical thing with a penis between his legs) blamed it completely on eve. we've been mere chattel, vessels for sons for centuries farther back than i count, and you guys want to cry to us about how we're asking for too much or aren't feminine enough or are as detestful as the nazis?

                            give me an effing break. it's just like men to cry about something that is a fraction as bad as what women have to bear.

                            now, understand, i'm not "man-hating." nor am i ignoring the inherent differences that GENERALLY exist betwixt men and women. i love me the penis as much as any other heterosexual woman can and i have no intention or desire to love a nani the way i love me the penis (okay, that line was funny to me, but if it was just plain old obnoxious to you, sorry. just understand that even as i rant, i'm laughing a lil), my love for men is best illustrated by my adoring posts about eric, and my wistfulness for my father who was never there for me as a kid.

                            my beef is with men who deny this huge iniquity has existed and still exists, and that it exists still much more than it has been remedied. if everything were suddenly now truly equal amongst men and women, why are we criticizing what hill wears to the debates? why is it that a woman who sleeps with more than five men in her lifetime was slutty, but a man who sleeps with 20 women in his lifetime was just "sowing his oats?" if things were truly equal, why is there even ONE soldier who thinks it's okay to say he's glad he never fought next to a woman? and not only does he say this, he says this to his wife! and then this same wife eats this point of view whole, like it's manna from the sky. oh, SPIT! wifey doesn't know that hubby is insulting her to her face. DUH--newsflash--HE THINKS YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR GENDER, ARE INFERIOR TO HIM. and guess what? YOU BELIEVE IT, TOO!

                            menehune man, you and other men like you have been great at posting your points of view of women, but you must remember--until women have TRUE equality (which i won't define here bcs it's been covered extensively in earlier posts by anapuni and PM), any advances women make are at the INDULGENCE of men, no matter how hard we women have FOUGHT for them. all you guys gotta do, when we protest and fight, and say things like "to be a true feminist we have to be lesbian" or "being a housewife shouldn't be allowed" to get your attention--all you guys gotta do is give us the thumbs up or thumbs down. WE still are at YOUR indulgence. there is no true equality, no way, no how. you get so much of the stuff you get just bcs you have a stalk and two balls between your legs. we get so much of the stuff we get now only bcs those before us fought, tooth and nail, for it.

                            (note: this doens't mean i don't have sympathy for men who have been caught on the wrongful end of child support/divorce/child custody/assault battles. ask my asstard ex what i did re his son. but still-for every case like that against men, there are generations back of cases like that for women.)
                            superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                            "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                            nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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                            • #89
                              Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                              It was nice while it lasted... the pleasantries that is.

                              The sins of the parents will be played out on the generations to come.

                              What my "Gender" did in the past is being worked out now, which is "working over" the present generation.

                              Let's play nicely together now, please.
                              Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                                ONE soldier who thinks it's okay to say he's glad he never fought next to a woman? and not only does he say this, he says this to his wife! and then this same wife eats this point of view whole, like it's manna from the sky. oh, SPIT! wifey doesn't know that hubby is insulting her to her face. DUH--newsflash--HE THINKS YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR GENDER, ARE INFERIOR TO HIM. and guess what? YOU BELIEVE IT, TOO!"

                                I sit here almost shaking my head, for there is none so blind as those that will not see.

                                Most women would not have lasted or made it, had they suffered the fields and horror of 'Nam. It was not Iraq, I assure you, and that's no picnic.

                                I have no problem admitting that there are things men can do that women generally fail at. I know I wasn't insulted when my hubby said what he did about 'Nam. I am sorry for you that you feel way. What hubby did was speak truth. Most of the gals he had served near in the navy would NEVER have cut the muster as a marine with him in 'Nam.

                                Period, fact, reality.....
                                Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

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