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  • #31
    Re: Price of Milk

    Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    You know, I'd like to see someone do some calculations to see how much energy there is in all these alternatives. Just because something can produce energy doesn't mean it's practical on a large scale. For example, roughly how many acres will it take to convert from oil to biofuel? Or to go all solar energy? I see all these technologies designed to "lessen our dependence on foreign oil" and yet that only seem to talk about "up to 20% of our energy usage".

    Oh, dang, there's those facts again....
    I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels. There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen. All are viable alternatives. Maybe not all in one place and maybe not just one. But in combination and with a concerted effort by our gov't, we could change over completely within a very short time. Of course, getting the politicians to invoke that change.......

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    • #32
      Re: Price of Milk

      Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
      Here in Hawai‘i, the only way ethanol companies plan to make their product is from sugar cane. Frankly, it’s cheaper, and takes less resources. Already in Brazil and Australia, companies are growing a strong and profitable ethanol business using sugar cane.
      Are we still growing sugar cane in Hawaii? I thought Brazil stole that business from us a long time ago.

      Sure, we can use sugar cane but that's not going to stop corn farmers from diverting [all] of their resources back to cattle feed and food consumption.
      Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

      Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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      • #33
        Re: Price of Milk

        Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
        I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels. There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen. All are viable alternatives. Maybe not all in one place and maybe not just one. But in combination and with a concerted effort by our gov't, we could change over completely within a very short time. Of course, getting the politicians to invoke that change.......
        Perhaps, but how you're going to convince the public to trade in their gas guzzler for a hydro-car?

        There's a reason why used car dealerships still exist.
        Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

        Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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        • #34
          Re: Price of Milk

          Hey TuNnL, I mentioned "corn, and other feed crops", so please know that I realize it's not just corn.

          Acousticlady mentions the classic misconception that exists right now in America concerning the implementation of alternative energy. She wants the government to do something. Alternatives have been available for 20 years or more. It's the CONSUMERS who don't CHOOSED them. Consumers buy SUV's instead of electric vehicles. Consumers buy their power from HELCO instead of installing solar power on the rooftop. Consumers say they can't afford the $7 flourescent lightbulbs. It's all about choice. Consumers choose what they want. Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.

          I probably ought to buy a cow.
          FutureNewsNetwork.com
          Energy answers are already here.

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          • #35
            Re: Price of Milk

            Originally posted by Random View Post
            Perhaps, but how you're going to convince the public to trade in their gas guzzler for a hydro-car?

            There's a reason why used car dealerships still exist.
            Hydro-cars aren't the most expensive part, it's the production of liquid hydrogen and the distribution.

            A really quick and effective way to encourage trading in gas-guzzlers is to boost taxes and fees on larger cars. There is a reason why there is a subculture of cars with 600cc or smaller engines in Japan. But then, do we have the will power? Or is it gonna be an argument about choice as usually what happens in this country?

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            • #36
              Re: Price of Milk

              Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes.

              How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

              Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.
              FutureNewsNetwork.com
              Energy answers are already here.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Price of Milk

                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes.

                How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

                Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.
                But we do that as well. There is a limit per year but X number of hybrids purchased get a nice tax credit. In California, they are eligible for carpool lanes even though there is only one driver.

                How about cleaning up some loopholes like how Hummers qualify for farm equipment tax credits if you own a business because the darn thing weighs over 6000 lbs?

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                • #38
                  Re: Price of Milk

                  Originally posted by timkona View Post
                  Hey TuNnL, I mentioned "corn, and other feed crops", so please know that I realize it's not just corn.

                  Acousticlady mentions the classic misconception that exists right now in America concerning the implementation of alternative energy. She wants the government to do something. Alternatives have been available for 20 years or more. It's the CONSUMERS who don't CHOOSED them. Consumers buy SUV's instead of electric vehicles. Consumers buy their power from HELCO instead of installing solar power on the rooftop. Consumers say they can't afford the $7 flourescent lightbulbs. It's all about choice. Consumers choose what they want. Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.

                  I probably ought to buy a cow.
                  At this point I could get really sarcastic about those really rich republicans who are buying the SUVs and Hummers..........but I won't go there.

                  Instead, I'd like to point out that for the average consumer, alternative sources are beyond their capabilities. Take the solar water heater program right here in HI. A recent article in the Maui News broke down the cost to the average homeowner. A system (without any help from various agencies) would cost about $6000. With co-pays and various tax credits, the cost of the system is reduced to $1600. Frankly, I can't afford $6000 to change over to solar. But I can afford $1600. And I am in a better situation than many. For many people, even shelling out an additional $1600 is a burden.

                  You are correct that the options have been available for 20 yrs or more. But the cost of changing over is beyond the capability of most. Consumers who buy brand new SUVs are part of the problem but I think Random had a better point with the existence of used car dealerships. A new hybrid car goes for $15,000 - $20,000. A good used car will go for about $5000. Big difference.

                  Let's forget about the car issue for a moment. What about electricity? The electrical power that comes into your home does not have to be produced using fossil fuels. The actual electricity is produced by moving a huge coil of wire over a huge magnet. It is the movement of the coil that requires power. That can come from anything (including man power if necessary ). That is where the government comes in. If the government mandates that all power companys must change over to non-fossil fuels - you can bet they will.

                  The tone the government sets is the tone the people will take. If the president, senate and congress work together (I know - what a concept!) to set an example and, say, refuse the oil lobbyists, then I bet you would see major changes in a short amount of time. I know, I know - it's that living in the ivory tower thing again...........

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                  • #39
                    Re: Price of Milk

                    sorry, sorry, sorry, this is off the original topic of milk, but yesterday, the beau had coincidentally sent me the following piece from the NYT. you'll need to subscribe to see the whole article, tho.

                    according to the writer, "A full-size S.U.V., for example, earns a profit, before expenses, of nearly $9,000, more than 20 times the $400 that Detroit companies earn on the sale of each subcompact, says CNW Market Research of Bandon, Ore."

                    a couple of years ago, slate.com posted a piece which pointed out that most of the bigger SUVs are actually banned from many cali streets but most peeps don't know it.

                    additionally, a film came out at the end of june called "who killed the electric car?":

                    "In 1996, General Motors (G.M.) launched the first modern-day commercially available electric car, the EV1. The car required no fuel and could be plugged in for recharging at home and at a number of so-called battery parks.

                    Many of the people who leased the car, including a number of celebrities, said the car drove like a dream.

                    '...the EV1 was a high performer. It could do a U-turn on a dime; it was incredibly quiet and smooth. And it was fast. I could beat any Porsche off the line at a stoplight. I loved it,' Actress, Alexandra Paul told NOW.

                    ....

                    But it was not to be. A little over 1,000 EV1s were produced by G.M. before the company pulled the plug on the project in 2002 due to insufficient demand. Other major car makers also ceased production of their electric vehicles.

                    In the wake of a legal challenge from G.M. and DaimlerChrysler, California amended its regulations and abandoned its goals. Shortly thereafter, automakers began reclaiming and dismantling their electrics as they came off lease.

                    Some suggest that G.M. -- which says it invested some $1 billion in the EV1 -- never really wanted the cars to take off. They say G.M. intentionally sabotaged their own marketing efforts because they feared the car would cannibalize its existing business."

                    again, sorry for going off topic.
                    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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                    • #40
                      Re: Price of Milk

                      Originally posted by timkona View Post
                      Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes. Raise Taxes.
                      We raised tax on cigarettes and still people smoke.

                      The discouragement method is not going to work on the public consumers. They need incentive.
                      Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                      Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Price of Milk

                        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                        Hydro-cars aren't the most expensive part, it's the production of liquid hydrogen and the distribution.
                        True, but then why build a hydro-station that have no demand for it in Hawaii that you can profit from?
                        Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                        Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Price of Milk

                          Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                          Let's forget about the car issue for a moment. What about electricity? The electrical power that comes into your home does not have to be produced using fossil fuels. The actual electricity is produced by moving a huge coil of wire over a huge magnet. It is the movement of the coil that requires power. That can come from anything (including man power if necessary ). That is where the government comes in. If the government mandates that all power companys must change over to non-fossil fuels - you can bet they will.
                          You want the Federales to step in and tell what your local municipal power supply company to make change or face a hefty fine?

                          You do realize that enforcing a fine would mean they would have less money to invest in the next-generation power turbine. It also means that to compensate for the fine, they'll want to raise power rate, so it'll pass on to the consumers.

                          Again, discouragement method won't work.

                          Are you suggesting man-power to make the turbines rotate to generate power? That's a hefty payroll, which will have to come from the customers paying their electric bills (after the power rate hike is approved).
                          Last edited by Random; August 1, 2007, 10:38 PM.
                          Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                          Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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                          • #43
                            Re: Price of Milk

                            Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                            I believe the technology and research is out there to completely change over from fossil fuels.
                            Tantalizing, but not quite there yet.


                            Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                            There are a host of alternatives - solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen.
                            Solar - doesn't work at night. No one has worked out the massive energy storage systems to make it work.

                            Wind - also not there all the time. Power output fluctuates minute by minute. Again, the energy storage technology isn't there to allow it to become a major source of power.

                            Geothermal - not suitable for many places in the world. Cultural issues for Hawaii.

                            Hydrogen - Since there are no hydrogen wells, it's a transmission/storage medium, not a fuel source. (However, I've noticed that G4 nuke plants are said to be able to create hydrogen. )

                            Much of what you see are just cover jobs that hide the bigger issues with the technology. What's needed is heavy research to deal with the issues and bring the costs down, not running out and trying to build the things.

                            Last but not the least, for Hawaii to truly become energy independent, we have to come up with a replacement for jet fuel. Because jet fuel is what runs our one-trick pony economy.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Price of Milk

                              Originally posted by timkona View Post
                              How about LOWER the tax rates for Automobile Manufacturers who sell a given number of cars of alternative fuel power?

                              Many answers can be found in taxes. Taxation is a two way street. Try leading the donkey with a carrot rather than a whip.
                              But then there's less money to fund all those great social programs. Getting politicians to take cuts in their power source is rather difficult.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Price of Milk

                                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                                Solar Power is cost effective and perfectly capable of powering our entire nation.
                                I'm not sure if you are making that claim or are lumping it in with the public misconception. But it's a false statement given the current technology.

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