Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

[kamuelakea]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

By the way. Why does a place like Maui have MORE registered vehicles than PEOPLE. And that includes MINORS??? That means that there are nearly 1.5 cars PER individual with a drivers license.

If these protesting clowns were for real, they would go after the true source of polution and traffic. Why not suggest a 500 vehicle registration fee for 1 vehicle and a 2000 fee for the second registered to the same person???

I bet the biggest reason is that a lot of the Oprahs and other millionaires have multiple cars for varying purposes.

START CHARGING THEM and everyone else for that luxury.

That would control pollution and traffic.

But no, more fun to get in the way of the Superferry. You get to be a big star and be on television.

Sheeeesh

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

By the way. Why does a place like Maui have MORE registered vehicles than PEOPLE. And that includes MINORS??? That means that there are nearly 1.5 cars PER individual with a drivers license.

If these protesting clowns were for real, they would go after the true source of polution and traffic. Why not suggest a 500 vehicle registration fee for 1 vehicle and a 2000 fee for the second registered to the same person???

I bet the biggest reason is that a lot of the Oprahs and other millionaires have multiple cars for varying purposes.

START CHARGING THEM and everyone else for that luxury.

That would control pollution and traffic.

But no, more fun to get in the way of the Superferry. You get to be a big star and be on television.

Sheeeesh

Obviously, we are not going to be in any agreement about all these "emotional" issues like traffic, the environment, whales or anything like that. So let's just look at it from HSF's standpoint: stone cold hard economics.

They have already stated that they need to carry 110-150 vehicles at their posted (not $5) rates in order to break even, and they need approximately 500 paying passengers every single trip they make, every single day. We know that their heaviest days will probably be the weekends. How many weekends are there in most months? 4. Their full load is 250 cars and 800 people. They make one RT/day.

So let's look at Honolulu-Kahului-Honolulu only. Every month, they will have 8 days when they have full capacity (@800 people/trip, 250 cars/trip). That means they have 1600 passengers/day, 500 cars/day. Multiply that by 2 for each weekend= 3200 passengers/weekend, 1000 cars per weekend. Multiply that by 4 for each month= 12,800 passengers, 4,000 cars.

At full capacity every day, this means they would be carrying 48,000 passengers and 15,000 cars each month between Kahului and Honolulu.

So if we subtract the weekend loads (12,800 passengers and 4,000 cars) from the total load needed in a 30-day month, we come up with 35,200 people and 11,000 cars that need to have reservations on the weekdays (22 days)= 1600 passengers/day, and 500 cars/day.

If you notice something odd, it's that the weekend "full load" has to equal the average weekday load needed. Do I think HSF will get full loads every trip? No. The only time they will get their full loads is if they reduce their prices below what they have said they need to charge in order to break even.

This sounds an awful lot like what is going on in the interisland airfare wars, except HSF has no direct competitors. But HSF does have a $1.3+ million federal loan guarantee to bail them out if they do go belly up, which means the taxpayers pay for it in the end.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

By the way. Why does a place like Maui have MORE registered vehicles than PEOPLE. And that includes MINORS??? That means that there are nearly 1.5 cars PER individual with a drivers license.

If these protesting clowns were for real, they would go after the true source of polution and traffic. Why not suggest a 500 vehicle registration fee for 1 vehicle and a 2000 fee for the second registered to the same person???

Sorry, Kam. It's not just the Neighbor Islands that have this problem. The people on Oahu appear to have the same problem.

Story
Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

There are a lot of angry people in Hawaii right now. I think it has to do with the doubling of housing prices in 4 years and of course the cost of everything else. "Local" people, the Davids, are afraid right now and they want to fight something, the Goliath. Rather than fight the actual causes of their misery, they go after the Goliath of the day, the Superferry. The only reason they are fighting Superferry is because it is big and new. They know they will get attention and they are striving for attention to their anger. Anger not at the actual potential effects of the Superferry but anger at themselves and their state of life. Most of the Haole professional rabble rousers came to Hawaii with some money. Enough to buy a house or at least survive. These professional protesters love to find angry and desparate locals that they can agitate to action. These Haoles have their own psychological issues and need to throw a temper tantrum every once in a while to feel powerful.

My theory is that the haole transplants already got a piece of heaven and now they wanna be selfish by not letting anyone else get a shot at it. So they prod on the angry locals and fan the flames under the pretentious environmentalism flag. The fact that time after time that people have pointed out the double standards for HSF vs Matson/NCL/YB shows the environment argument is dubious at best.

How does Matson figure into this? They don't transport people anymore and they only ship cars between the mainland and the state, not between the islands.

I believe Matson had to make room on Maui for the HSF.

NO EIS / NO PARKING! ho bra, wea my $40 Million went?

The bulk of the $40 million went to building and purchasing the loading barges from a Chinese shipyard. Considering each port has a barge, that's a total of 4 barges. This is a tiny detail I saw once, the $40 million spent by the state is actually to be repaid back by HSF over X years assuming if they stayed in business.

At the normal rates they intend to charge, they will still get lots of people wanting to come from Honolulu to Maui but the demand isn't as great going from Maui to Honolulu. If that wasn't the case, why are there still spaces available for trips originating on Maui on Sept. 6? Check it out for yourself on the HSF website.

I don't think the demand is any less. You forgot to factor out Oahu's population is about 7 to 8 times Maui's? That will alter the numbers. Besides, if businesses start to truck their goods by ferry, trucks will take up space in the hold. Don't forget that.

The standoff at Nawiliwili Harbor continues... The protestors won last night.

This is getting dumb. Kauai PD or maybe the Coast Guard should simply set up a perimeter on shore so people don't even have a chance to jump into the water. That would be so much easier. They can still protest all they want at the perimeter.

[glossyp]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

A richly ironic photo from the deck of the HSF yesterday. From Mixed Plate Special

I also note some fancy footwork from Sen. Hooser (D-Kauai) regarding the protesters. On Sunday there was plenty of footage of him glad handing and showing solidarity with them; today he is urging restraint and projecting a deeply concerned demeanour. I hope he doesn't have plans to run for statewide office; his anti-ferry stance may win some support on Kauai, but I don't think it plays elsewhere. I smell whiffs of the gas cap debacle surrounding this issue.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Lee Cataluna weighs in on the subject today.

It isn't locals versus newcomers. It isn't practical folks versus tree-hugging weirdos.

Maybe lots of locals want the Superferry, but certainly not every local person, and the Superferry folks have to be honest and stop playing that card.

It used to be the hammer was saying that something was what the tourists wanted. If a company claimed it could make tourists happy, that pretty much ensured the hotel would be built, the land would be rezoned, the company would catch all sorts of love from friends in government.

The tide has definitely turned. Wal-Mart officials are fighting the Kaua'i County Council to build superstores on the island in the name of "giving the local folks what they want," and the Superferry's battle cry has been "For the locals! For the locals!"

The Superferry started out marketing its service as a way to see Auntie in Hilo, and after the dramatic protest in Nawiliwili on Sunday, the company's statement again made it sound as if it were the earnest, downtrodden locals looking for a break and the militant naysaying newcomers getting in the way.

It's nice that these big companies think of the little locals, but they make it sound as if they're giving rides out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. Like maybe they're providing a not-for-profit humanitarian service instead of invoking the "local stamp of approval" as the sales come-on that it is.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I don't think the demand is any less. You forgot to factor out Oahu's population is about 7 to 8 times Maui's? That will alter the numbers. Besides, if businesses start to truck their goods by ferry, trucks will take up space in the hold. Don't forget that.

I'm not forgetting that Oahu has more people than Maui. And that's the point. More people from Oahu will use the ferry because there are more of you. However, you're not all going to be arriving and leaving at the same time, either. What's a little deceptive about the Alakai's first couple of runs to Maui is that the majority of people who got on the boat in Honolulu also returned to Honolulu on the same boat. When the ferry starts regular service, this will not happen very often.

If anything the only times when the ferry will be at full capacity is on the weekend or a 3-day holiday weekend. And there aren't enough of those days to make up for the days when Alakai won't be carrying the loads HSF stated it requires to break even. There's nothing emotional about that. No rallying for the whales or against traffic. Just basic economics.

Now if HSF wanted to keep interest up, they wouldn't charge as much as they will be when they start service. Thanks to go!, people are now conditioned to expecting never to pay full price. If the airfare war hadn't started, I think HSF would be in a far better position because then its posted fares would sound like a reasonable option. But their timing was a little off and they may end up paying the price at the interisland carriers' expense.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I'm not forgetting that Oahu has more people than Maui. And that's the point. More people from Oahu will use the ferry because there are more of you. However, you're not all going to be arriving and leaving at the same time, either. What's a little deceptive about the Alakai's first couple of runs to Maui is that the majority of people who got on the boat in Honolulu also returned to Honolulu on the same boat. When the ferry starts regular service, this will not happen very often.

If anything the only times when the ferry will be at full capacity is on the weekend or a 3-day holiday weekend. And there aren't enough of those days to make up for the days when Alakai won't be carrying the loads HSF stated it requires to break even. There's nothing emotional about that. No rallying for the whales or against traffic. Just basic economics.

Now if HSF wanted to keep interest up, they wouldn't charge as much as they will be when they start service. Thanks to go!, people are now conditioned to expecting never to pay full price. If the airfare war hadn't started, I think HSF would be in a far better position because then its posted fares would sound like a reasonable option. But their timing was a little off and they may end up paying the price at the interisland carriers' expense.

Miulang

Not everyone will be going or leaving at the same time but equilibrium will be established, just like not every tourist comes to and leaves Hawaii at the same time. But an equilibrium settles in right?

Again, you keep ignoring the prospect that the ferry will have business customers, not just individual retail customers. If the ferry establishes itself as a viable cargo carrier, the ferry can gain revenue from trucks making the voyage. Large companies like Walmart could potentially remove any warehouses needed on the outer islands and simply send over container trucks to restock stores.

Can't really say timing is off. When they submitted their business plan, airfare was high and there was no go!. A business like a ferry can't just set up shop overnight, I mean these guys went out there and built a ship plus one more in the works for this service.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Again, you keep ignoring the prospect that the ferry will have business customers, not just individual retail customers. If the ferry establishes itself as a viable cargo carrier, the ferry can gain revenue from trucks making the voyage. Large companies like Walmart could potentially remove any warehouses needed on the outer islands and simply send over container trucks to restock stores.

Can't really say timing is off. When they submitted their business plan, airfare was high and there was no go!. A business like a ferry can't just set up shop overnight, I mean these guys went out there and built a ship plus one more in the works for this service.

I'm NOT ignoring the prospect of business customers. Remember, though, Superferry has always been touted as being a major benefit for individual passengers, and it wasn't HSF's intent to go after the farmers or any other commercial use (except maybe the DoD) as a primary revenue source. The farmer's coops on Maui have been talking to HSF, but the way the tariffs and schedules are today, they are having some concerns about using HSF as a viable option. HSF certainly has a right to pursue any lines of business they can get, but it does really put into some question if this had been HSF's original proposal, whether the DOT would have granted that exemption from the EAS. I think the primary reason the DOT and PUC fast tracked the application is because they believed it was to primarily serve people, not cargo.

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I'm not forgetting that Oahu has more people than Maui. And that's the point. More people from Oahu will use the ferry because there are more of you. However, you're not all going to be arriving and leaving at the same time, either. What's a little deceptive about the Alakai's first couple of runs to Maui is that the majority of people who got on the boat in Honolulu also returned to Honolulu on the same boat. When the ferry starts regular service, this will not happen very often.Miulang

Miulang, no offense but maybe you should go back to just posting endless links.

The more you talk the more silly you sound.

By your own obvious description, if Superferry is to be successful, they must maintain capacity in both directions.

When they DROP OFF 200 cars and 800 passengers, they will hope to PICK UP 200 cars and 800 passengers. That means if the business is successful, there will be NO/LITTLE NET AFFECT on maui traffic. Why is this so hard to grasp?

The vast majority of Superferry passengers will ultimately return to their original destination. If they don't, it's because they are MOVING TO MAUI. But they aren't moving to Maui because of the Superferry. They could move to Maui today with plane ticket and barge reservation. Nothing holding anyone back. So Superferry has nothing to do with any true net increase in people or traffic.

Maui gets 2.4 MILLION visitors per year. That is 6775 per DAY. How will a few hundred more people per day and a couple hundred cars going to 1) destroy the traffic situation 2) destroy the environment 3) bother the whales 4) pollute the island.???? Especially when nearly the same number of cars and people are REMOVED from the island at the same time?

Let me see, where should I protest traffic, pollution and environment? The Airport with 7000 a day arriving? Or the harbor with 800 arriving??

Oh, since I only fly, I'll protest the Superferry. Plus I get to use my canoe and my surfboard and get on TV!

This is all a juvenlie temper tantrum.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Miulang, no offense but maybe you should go back to just posting endless links.

The more you talk the more silly you sound.

By your own obvious description, if Superferry is to be successful, they must maintain capacity in both directions.

When they DROP OFF 200 cars and 800 passengers, they will hope to PICK UP 200 cars and 800 passengers. That means if the business is successful, there will be NO/LITTLE NET AFFECT on maui traffic. Why is this so hard to grasp?

The vast majority of Superferry passengers will ultimately return to their original destination. If they don't, it's because they are MOVING TO MAUI. But they aren't moving to Maui because of the Superferry. They could move to Maui today with plane ticket and barge reservation. Nothing holding anyone back. So Superferry has nothing to do with any true net increase in people or traffic.

Maui gets 2.4 MILLION visitors per year. That is 6775 per DAY. How will a few hundred more people per day and a couple hundred cars going to 1) destroy the traffic situation 2) destroy the environment 3) bother the whales 4) pollute the island.???? Especially when nearly the same number of cars and people are REMOVED from the island at the same time?

Let me see, where should I protest traffic, pollution and environment? The Airport with 7000 a day arriving? Or the harbor with 800 arriving??

Kam, I told you, in my little economic exercise above, it had absolutely nothing to do with traffic, or pollution. It's all about whether or not HSF can sustain the volumes they themselves have publicly stated they need in order to be viable.

They're not really all that worried about making money, though. They have a federal loan guarantee in Title XI MARAD dollars to cover their okoles if they can't make a profit. That loan guarantee is worth almost $140 MILLION.

Go to the HSF reservation website. Pretend to book a roundtrip from Kahului to Honolulu and back with a car on Sept. 6. Then have your return trip on Sept. 7. You will be able to get a reservation.

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

The farmer's coops on Maui have been talking to HSF, but the way the tariffs and schedules are today, they are having some concerns about using HSF as a viable option.

Do you have some reference for this? I am hearing just the opposite from folks anxious to bring their ag goods to Oahu on the ferry. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, but I always thought that the transport of goods (particularly ag products) was one of the principal streams of income the HSF planned.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Go to the HSF reservation website. Pretend to book a roundtrip from Kahului to Honolulu and back with a car on Sept. 6. Then have your return trip on Sept. 7. You will be able to get a reservation.

But is that really a fair assessment given the unknown status of the ferry? If I wasn't sure if the boat will be running, I wouldn't be booking thus creating an artificial low demand.

Do you have some reference for this? I am hearing just the opposite from folks anxious to bring their ag goods to Oahu on the ferry. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, but I always thought that the transport of goods (particularly ag products) was one of the principal streams of income the HSF planned.

See, I remember the ferry touting both transporting passengers and enabling smaller business to quickly move their goods. I think it is this combo that will create the niche market for the ferry.

[dick]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

What's a little deceptive about the Alakai's first couple of runs to Maui is that the majority of people who got on the boat in Honolulu also returned to Honolulu on the same boat. When the ferry starts regular service, this will not happen very often.

I don't see the "deception."

I don't see the evils that will overtake Maui because of this service.

Hell, it's inter-island barges fault there are coqui frogs all over the state now. Where's the weeping and hand-wringing over that? Why aren't the protest people sitting in front of the barges?

Here's the deal. You weren't on the ferry were you? Have you ever been on the Alakai? Have you been to the intersection of Puunene and Kaahumanu when the ferry docked?

I've done it, and seen the "effects" first-hand. There were none. Period.

Everyone on that ferry Sunday morning had to get off. Vehicles and all. Everyone was off and out of there in 20 minutes. And while traffic gets heavier on Kaahumanu during the weekdays, it's by no means "gridlock." I go to Maui regularly. Kaahumanu Ave. is certainly crowded, but that's only due to the fact that the traffic signals are not timed. Plain and simple. I've driven it, and marveled at that fact. There's "traffic" on off-peak times for that very reason. Shoddy traffic engineering is not the ferry's fault. Maui's traffic has been screwed for years by bad planning.

You get plane-loads of tourists arriving to Maui every day. They're renting cars, and driving all over. Even to Hana (gasp!). 200 (and that's a stretch) more cars a day is not going to make a difference. Any sane, logical person will understand that.

[DKP]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Please be aware of the risks of carrying bees from O'ahu. Many are now known to carry the Varroa Mite, which exhausts and kills the carrier bee. The mite spreads quickly from host to host.

O'ahu bees are the ones affected right now, not the other islands'. If this becomes established on Hawai'i island, it could destroy the bee industry and wild bees. This is not only detrimental to local business and the ecosystem, but mainland farming as well (and possibly, our food prices to an extent). Many of the bees bred here are sold to mainland farms where they are used for pollinating crops of all sorts (pollen carriers). Mainland bee colonies are already in trouble, which makes our bees a very important export.

This is just one of the invasive species found on particular islands, not all (ex. Nettle Caterpillars, Coqui Frogs, Red Imported Fire Ant, etc.) The Dept. of Ag. is trying to control movement to islands where these aren't established, but inspectors are already busy with nurseries/farms/warehouses, etc...all they can do is train the Superferry staff in what to look for.

The resulting procedure is spot-checking in a very short amount of time...definately not comprehensive compared to how Young Brothers' cars are inspected (yes, the Dept. of Ag. goes there daily looking for certain invasives...paying most attention to VEHICLES).

I'm not trying to stop the ferry, but there should be better screening as far as vehicular cargo goes...by ferry staff. They aren't doing anything to address the problem of invasive plants whose seeds/pollen are found in tire tread (again certain ones only found on certain islands.) There is a simple, cheap, and quick, procedure to combat this, but HSF is unwilling to implement.

I feel they are taking proper precautions as far as whale collision and pollution go, though.

On a side note, something the media didn't pick up on (at least from what I have read): the protest on Kaua'i was supposed to include a near collision with a few of the surfers that were there, in order to demonstrate how the boat would not be able to stop in time if one was spotted to late (in this case, the surfers themselves would play the part of the whales). I don't know if the few guys (not the whole group of protesters) who were planning to do this did what they planned, or just ended up in the main group that the media reported about. Either way, I'm sure the boat would've stopped early enough, but still a little trippy to think about.

Please, if anyone here is from O'ahu and plans to ride the ferry, clean your tire tread and footwear as best as possible. Check your engine bay for ANY bees, especially on your radiator. Outer islands, overall, have more agriculture, nature preserves, and less invasive species, than O'ahu. It's up to us to keep the bad stuff that's here, here.

Oh yeah, I had to get down on my cousin for planning to smuggle choke opihi from Kaua'i. If everybody did that, outer island stocks of many sea creatures would be just like O'ahu