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Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

  1. #1
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    The fact is, Lingle's description of who we are may be outdated; what we saw is perhaps exactly the kind of people we're becoming ...
    I've been concerned about this for some time, and I think I blame the importance of sports in pop culture, not to mention this country's own history as the underdog who won its freedom from the British Empire.

    On the one hand, we like to think we are peaceful, loving people. On the other, we glorify people who stand up for themselves, who demand to be heard, who "refuse to lose," and who "fight to the end." Our own local collegiate football team treats each game like a battle, preparing for it with a war-chant, and we think it's awesome.

    I am as annoyed with the Kauai protesters as anyone, but part of me thinks it's exactly the kind of thing we Americans (yes, even we Americans in Hawaii) always encourage. Stand up to the oppression. Let your voice be heard. Be united in your resistance. If the Kauai people know they are right (and they appear to) should they stand quietly by while the government does whatever it wants?

    We have stopped saying "And the winner is..." at the Academy Awards because it implies that there's something wrong with losing. We have watched report-card grades inflated to the point of meaninglessness because C means average, and average is not good enough. We value individuality (be who you are, no matter what people think!) but we beat it down if we're uncomfortable with it.

    As a peace-loving man, I have my manliness called into question all the time, because yes, I do refuse to fight for myself when I think I'm being wronged, preferring peace to violence. The result is that I can look at myself in the mirror with a clear conscience, but the other result is that I'm the loser.

    Being the loser is unacceptable in our culture today, and the Kauai protesters are merely expressing that. If they try to work things out peacefully, they think they will lose and that they won't have done everything they can to stand up for what they believe in their hearts to be right.

    I'm surprised things haven't come to blows already. But then, this isn't over.
    Last edited by scrivener; September 26th, 2007 at 09:33 AM. Reason: "Show a little faith; there's magic in the night . . ."
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    Refresh my memory here. Which island passed the anti-big box law to block Wal-Mart? That can't be anti-business, can it? Or what about the repeated pattern in Hawaii of people who get the needed permits and then get shut down at the last minute because of protests?

    Sorry, given the intense emotion attached to the HSF, I have a problem believing the line "we just want an EIS - if we just get a EIS, then we'll be happy. Really."

    No, the EIS is just a talking point. It's really all about the politics of "no".
    The Big Island and Maui are also looking at resolutions to limit the size of big boxes. They're not saying they can't come, but they are saying they don't want establishments with huge footprints. And if the big box companies decide that they can't make a profit from having a smaller store, too bad. Think about all the little businesses who lose money when a big box comes to town. Is that fair to those people? The people of Hawai'i rant about monopolies and duopolies. That is exactly what will happen if small businesses are run out of town by the big boxes.

    Your second point is valid, but what it points to is the systemic problem of loosey goosey interpretations of current laws and variances to suit certain corporations or individuals with enough clout (i.e., cash and political influence) to circumvent said laws. The ones who get shut down are the ones who were given variances and are being stymied by legal efforts of individuals to enforce the laws.

    Someone on Kaua'i pointed out that their YMCA or YWCA in Lihue had to get an EA for a new pool complex they wanted to build that would cost $33 million (and that's a Kaua'i county issue), and yet the HSF, which is a statewide issue, didn't have to get one? Where's the fairness in that?

    The new biofuel company on Maui voluntarily agreed to do an EA. That could have statewide implications because some of the fuel produced could be used by HECO. Is it fair that Blue Planet offered to do an EA but the State said HSF didn't need to do one?

    There's a big brouhaha going on on Maui now over illegal vacation rentals. All of a sudden, after years of looking the other way, the County has decided that illegal vacation rentals are now going to be shut down. Yes, quite a few homeowners will be penalized and may even lose their homes because they were counting on that extra income from illegal vacation rentals to help pay their exorbitant mortgages. But they knew they were breaking the law, so is it fair for them to complain? In some cases, they do have a legitimate gripe, because the County apparently was very stingy in giving out permits for vacation rentals in the first place. But many of those people, assuming that the County wasn't going to do anything to them, never even bothered to try to get licensed. And now they want to complain?

    Also on Maui, it takes most individuals years to get permits for water for new residences, and yet high powered deverlopers get water meters handed to them on a regular basis. Is that fair?

    I seriously doubt A&B is going to be able to get past the Maui County Planning Commission with its plans to turn those unused ag lands into gentleman's estates without some serious problems with both the County and the community (same is true on Kaua'i). HSF and the drought on Maui and the rapid overdevelopment on Kaua'i are causing even some usually complacent folks on those islands to sit up and take notice. The infrastructure on all the islands are barely able to support the current populations; without adequate planning, how is the infrastructure supposed to support any more people?

    If you have laws on the books, either enforce them across the board or get rid of them. That's why I think the no smoking law in Hawai'i is stupid if there are no rules in place to enforce it.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; September 26th, 2007 at 10:05 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    I am as annoyed with the Kauai protesters as anyone, but part of me thinks it's exactly the kind of thing we Americans (yes, even we Americans in Hawaii) always encourage. Stand up to the oppression. Let your voice be heard. Be united in your resistance. If the Kauai people know they are right (and they appear to) should they stand quietly by while the government does whatever it wants?
    The problem is "rules of engagement". There's a right way to stand up and a wrong way. The TV news coverage showed the wrong way - obscenities, and pounding on the cars of passengers.

    The right way would be more along the lines of a human chain across the road. Or like Maui, take it to the courts.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again - whatever those protesters are trying to protect, they are loosing from the inside though their anger. It shows in their actions.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    As a peace-loving man, I have my manliness called into question all the time, because yes, I do refuse to fight for myself when I think I'm being wronged, preferring peace to violence. The result is that I can look at myself in the mirror with a clear conscience, but the other result is that I'm the loser.
    "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov.

    Me and my ol' scribbler buddy, Isaac - we're in your camp, Scrivener.

  5. #5
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov.

    That would hardly mean that Hawaii State Government or the U.S. government are compentent just because violence is not their last resort. These so-called democratic governments resort to manipulating courts, threats of force and use of force not as last resorts but as a result of their being fundamentally undemocratic, enablers of US corporations dominion over the citizenry, fundamentally unrepresentative of the people because they are fundamentally representative of US corporations. They are governments which enable and thrive on their purposefully dysfuntional popular democracy which is a consequence of their incompetence to stand up against Corporate America, to stand up for the people whose governments they are supposed to belong to instead of belong to Corporate America.
    These governments' last resort would be the use of their elections systems to truly reflect the will of the immediately impacted people of government/corporation designs on such peoples' communities and lives.
    Last edited by craig foo; September 26th, 2007 at 10:23 AM. Reason: spelling and rewording

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    The problem is "rules of engagement". There's a right way to stand up and a wrong way. The TV news coverage showed the wrong way - obscenities, and pounding on the cars of passengers.
    I was kind of wondering about this, the cars that was being pounded were these cars just arrived on the SuperFerry or were these cars about to leave on the SuperFerry?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    the cars that was being pounded
    Just a reminder that in addition to the pounding (and the yelling obscenities, etc.), there was also the image shown around the world of the Kauai idiot squatting down and letting the air out of the tires.
    Carry on.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Someone on Kaua'i pointed out that their YMCA or YWCA in Lihue had to get an EA for a new pool complex they wanted to build that would cost $33 million (and that's a Kaua'i county issue), and yet the HSF, which is a statewide issue, didn't have to get one? Where's the fairness in that?
    Correction: Found out it was the YWCA in Lihue and the cost was $3.3 million, which makes a $40 million expense for the State look even worse. New blogger to note for the Kaua'i perspective: Joan Conrow, former stringer for the Advertiser who was outted by someone as a writer who had contributed a story to the Sierra Club's magazine years ago and who lost her job at the Advertiser because of it and her blog.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; September 26th, 2007 at 02:18 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    So why is it the main thrust of the argument against HSF is directed against Oahuians and the incessant fear of taking Opihi, fish, and bringing in drugs?
    So what if they bring drugs? The drugs don't hurt anything. They are only a problem if people use them. Just don't buy or use them. End of problem.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    So what if they bring drugs? The drugs don't hurt anything. They are only a problem if people use them. Just don't buy or use them. End of problem.
    Wat? DRUGS are a PROBLEM!!! PERIOD. No and's, if's, or BUTTS about IT!

    Auntie Lynn
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Follow the money...YouTube has gazilliions of videos about HSF (both pro and con). I found the following video that has some interesting "coincidences" related to the funding of HSF. Does anyone have any facts that can refute anything this guy is saying?

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Just a reminder that in addition to the pounding (and the yelling obscenities, etc.), there was also the image shown around the world of the Kauai idiot squatting down and letting the air out of the tires.
    Carry on.
    LOL @ not questioning what we see (and in this case, didn't hear) in the media. The "Kauai idiot" you speak of let the air out because the driver of that car attempted to ram the protesters. A bunch of the protesters took a break from exercising the provisions of the First Amendment to protect the others from the real "Kauai idiot" by immobilizing the vehicle.

    Sure we have armchair QBs, but I didn't know we had armchair analysts/play-by-play/color commentators.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Correction: Found out it was the YWCA in Lihue and the cost was $3.3 million, which makes a $40 million expense for the State look even worse. New blogger to note for the Kaua'i perspective: Joan Conrow, former stringer for the Advertiser who was outted by someone as a writer who had contributed a story to the Sierra Club's magazine years ago and who lost her job at the Advertiser because of it and her blog.

    Miulang
    Hmm...you sure? The YMCA is the only one of those two groups that is currently building a massive rec center with a 50m pool.
    Last edited by Mike_Lowery; September 26th, 2007 at 08:37 PM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
    LOL @ not questioning what we see (and in this case, didn't hear) in the media. The "Kauai idiot" you speak of let the air out because the driver of that car attempted to ram the protesters. A bunch of the protesters took a break from exercising the provisions of the First Amendment to protect the others from the real "Kauai idiot" by immobilizing the vehicle.

    Sure we have armchair QBs, but I didn't know we had armchair analysts/play-by-play/color commentators.
    I was reviewing some tapes of that incident on YouTube earlier this evening. Looked like a bunch of people actually sat down in front of some of the cars as the first ones were coming off the boat, and then cars proceeded to inch forward, which is when some people in the crowd started pounding on the hood and windows of the car.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post

    Hmm...you sure? The YMCA is the only one of those two groups that is currently building a massive rec center with a 50m pool.
    Got that from Joan Conrow's blog. She said it was the YMCA and they did an EA for a $3.3 million project that involved some State funding somehow (she implied that that was why the YMCA had to do an EA...because of Chapter 343).

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  15. #15

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Anyone here think HSF can realign their service here to simply being for cargo only? Steal Aloha's air cargo biz and YB's? Would there be as many protesters if that was the case?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Anyone here think HSF can realign their service here to simply being for cargo only? Steal Aloha's air cargo biz and YB's? Would there be as many protesters if that was the case?
    On Kauai, I think there'd still be protests. The more-organized groups want an EIS more than anything else. It's the rogue individuals with the xenophobic sentiments.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...709270352/1071

    Princess Cruises yesterday celebrated a bigger presence in Hawai'i — its Diamond Princess, a ship capable of carrying more than 2,600 passengers to the islands in regular stopovers.

    Hmm....so where is the EIS? Where's the protesters? Come on, don't disappoint me. This ship carries over 3x the max capacity of the HSF. And it's coming from LA, talk about invasive species.



    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS01/709270356

    Formby said the harbor improvements made via the bonds are "public purpose improvements" to Kahului, Nawiliwili, Kawaihae and Honolulu harbors. Although the improvements were done in anticipation of the start of the Hawaii Superferry, the company does not have exclusive rights to the facilities.

    For all those who still think the state somehow gave $40 million to HSF, here's affirmation that it isn't. It's a bond that needed to be repaid and the HSF does not have exclusive rights to the barges/facilities.
    Last edited by joshuatree; September 27th, 2007 at 06:37 AM. Reason: added more content

  18. #18
    waioli kai Guest

    Default ?jUSt listen to John Lehman et. al's Hawaii $uperfascUSt ferry plans

    .
    jUSt listening = endorsement
    \quote=glossyp= " In this case (http://hawaiithreads.com/showpost.ph...9&postcount=76) (, "listening" is indeed tantamount to an endorsement. It reduces free speech to a species of political capitulation and renders dialogue indistinguishable from a suicide pact." ==/quote

    ?Why does not the same reasoning from glossyp's quote apply to Oahu's neighbor island citizens when they are expected by off-islanders (those not of their own island) to merely listen to Lingle tell them what's she has planned for them to accept, welcome and live with for the rest of their lives and their children's lives?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    I was kind of wondering about this, the cars that was being pounded were these cars just arrived on the SuperFerry or were these cars about to leave on the SuperFerry?
    I don't know for sure, but I believe they were attacking passengers, not the ferry or it's representatives. Blockading would be one things, but to attack and vandalize the users - shame.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
    A bunch of the protesters took a break from exercising the provisions of the First Amendment to protect the others from the real "Kauai idiot" by immobilizing the vehicle.
    Whose the idiot? Anyone whose ever watched "COPS" knows that flatting tires does NOT immobilize a vehicle.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    4,701 sounds like a lot of people, but that's about 8% or 1.3% per year. Doesn't sound like that big number to me. What's the normal growth though birth rate? I don't have time now to look, but I have to wonder if more people are leaving Kauai then arriving.
    Oops. I think I missed your point - that an extra 200 cars on the road wasn't that big a deal. If 200 cars would lead to gridlock, then the island was only a year away from gridlock anyway.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...709270352/1071

    Princess Cruises yesterday celebrated a bigger presence in Hawai'i its Diamond Princess, a ship capable of carrying more than 2,600 passengers to the islands in regular stopovers.

    Hmm....so where is the EIS? Where's the protesters? Come on, don't disappoint me. This ship carries over 3x the max capacity of the HSF. And it's coming from LA, talk about invasive species.



    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS01/709270356

    Formby said the harbor improvements made via the bonds are "public purpose improvements" to Kahului, Nawiliwili, Kawaihae and Honolulu harbors. Although the improvements were done in anticipation of the start of the Hawaii Superferry, the company does not have exclusive rights to the facilities.

    For all those who still think the state somehow gave $40 million to HSF, here's affirmation that it isn't. It's a bond that needed to be repaid and the HSF does not have exclusive rights to the barges/facilities.
    I don't know where the Princess cruise docks on the other islands, but on Maui, they anchor off Lahaina and passengers are ferried in on smaller barges. Regarding an EIS for all the cruise industry in Hawai'i, that is in fact happening. I mentioned this story many posts back, but apparently many people didn't notice it. So here is the story again about the DOT and the Visitors Bureau working with HDEBT and DNLR on a type of EA that will examine the economic and environmental impact of the cruise industry on Hawai'i. The money for the study is coming out of the DOT budget and a draft is expected to be presented sometime next year.

    As far as the harbor improvements go, Barry Fukunaga, duing the Maui Superferry hearings, testified that the improvements were specifically done for HSF and no one else will use it. Gotcha.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    Whose the idiot? Anyone whose ever watched "COPS" knows that flatting tires does NOT immobilize a vehicle.
    You ever drove on the semi-paved, pothole-ridden road at the Nawiliwili jetty?
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    I don't know where the Princess cruise docks on the other islands, but on Maui, they anchor off Lahaina and passengers are ferried in on smaller barges. Regarding an EIS for all the cruise industry in Hawai'i, that is in fact happening. I mentioned this story many posts back, but apparently many people didn't notice it. So here is the story again about the DOT and the Visitors Bureau working with HDEBT and DNLR on a type of EA that will examine the economic and environmental impact of the cruise industry on Hawai'i. The money for the study is coming out of the DOT budget and a draft is expected to be presented sometime next year.

    As far as the harbor improvements go, Barry Fukunaga, duing the Maui Superferry hearings, testified that the improvements were specifically done for HSF and no one else will use it. Gotcha.

    Miulang
    But why are people permitting the cruise ships to continue service while an EA/EIS is being done concurrently? Why aren't people jumping into the waters to block the ships from docking? Keep in mind, cruise ships actually do carry bilge water which means possible invasive species. They also have been known to violate environmental laws such as dumping waste in water. Why aren't people deflating the wheels off tourist's Samsonites when they get off the boat? Gotcha.

    At this point, Barry doesn't sound like a very bright man. But more importantly than his claims or his words, what does the actual contract say? You know in court, the contract matters more than just words.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    But why are people permitting the cruise ships to continue service while an EA/EIS is being done concurrently? Why aren't people jumping into the waters to block the ships from docking? Keep in mind, cruise ships actually do carry bilge water which means possible invasive species. They also have been known to violate environmental laws such as dumping waste in water. Why aren't people deflating the wheels off tourist's Samsonites when they get off the boat? Gotcha.

    At this point, Barry doesn't sound like a very bright man. But more importantly than his claims or his words, what does the actual contract say? You know in court, the contract matters more than just words.
    I believe the cruise lines started service prior to HEPA. HSF starts service after HEPA was put on the books. I believe that is the difference. And if the cruise lines as a class of business started service after HEPA (I don't think that's the case, though), then the DOT was again guilty of ignoring its own rules (something they appear to have done selectively recently). Two wrongs don't make a right. Tourists (as in Mainlanders) probably also spend more money than locals who are visiting their relatives on the Neighbor Islands.

    For lines of businesses that existed prior to the implementation of HEPA, I do believe it would be more than fair for them to all have to undergo environmental scrutiny retrospectively. But you can't stop YB or Matson service (you might be able to stop the cruise ships, though) because they are the lifelines for the Neighbor Islands at this point and that would amount to an illegal embargo.

    Residents mutter under their breath about the tourists from the cruise lines, but not all cruise passengers drive cars when ashore. And the rental cars they do drive are already on the island.

    Maui Tomorrow has been grumbling about illegal dumping from cruise ships for years. They also grumble about private boaters doing the same thing.

    Barry indeed is not looking very bright these days. I wish someone could get their hands on the Letter of Intent that was signed by HSF and the DOT so we could get the real story. No one has produced that document yet, as far as I know. I wonder if a resident could use the FOIA to get it?

    Miulang

    P.S. As far as people protesting against the cruise lines the way Kauaians are, remember the people of Moloka'i. They successfully fended off attempts by the cruise lines to establish a port of call there. And they have even fewer residents than the Garden Isle does. Some of the organizers of the protests on Kaua'i look to the protests against the cruise lines that Moloka'i waged as their inspiration.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like. --Mark Twain

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