Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 206

Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

  1. #126

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    What percentage of Maui County voters live on Molokai? (That's how I can say that)

    Yes, they've been very successful with their political agenda, but will it last when push comes to shove?



    Can you see how anyone who takes a welfare check is NOT economically self-sufficient, no matter how pretty a picture you try to paint?

    Now, this is a old link, (feel free to find something more up to date) but it states that "nearly half of Molokai residents receive government assistance, including food stamps." Now, can you see why I believe that Molokai is not an economically self-sufficient community?

    Now add insult to injury with a community that fiercely fights for "status quo" and blocks any kind of development that would bring jobs and quite frankly, I see that as disrespectful to the taxpayer that makes welfare possible.



    And just keep forking over those tax dollars? Sorry. No.




    And have a major riot if I try to build so much as a tree house? I pity the fool.
    !
    The total population of Moloka'i (2000 census) was a little less than 7,000 people. In the 2006 elections, the turnout on Moloka'i was 39%, which is very similar to the overall State voting percentage.

    Read any of the 3 local papers (yes, they have THREE papers) and you will observe that they are indeed very vocal in expressing their desires. Their community meetings are always well attended. Some of the major issues as reported in their local papers: La'au Pt., the Moloka'i Irrigation System, and hunters being imported to help control wildlife. When you have 300 people show up for a community meeting on that island, as they have gathered over La'au Pt., that's a significant crowd. Could Oahu, with its 1 million population, be able to even get the same 300 people to a community meeting? I doubt it. And to match Moloka'i's numbers, Oahu would have to have community meetings with at least 10x more people to equal that.

    It's hard to find individual island stats on poverty level of the residents, but this news story from 2006 notes that the entire state of Hawai'i has the 7th lowest level of poverty in the country.

    The unemployment rate on Moloka'i as of Aug. 2007, was 5.9%, about double the State average, but not really that bad, when you consider that Moloka'i has no big industries (except for Moloka'i Ranch). Most of the industry on that island is of the cottage type, such as the taro farm, the macadamia nut farm, the coffee company, the gourmet salt company, the bakery that makes its famous Moloka'i bread. The salt company is actually very interesting, because the owner (originally from the Mainland) decided to help some of the residents make some money from salt farming. She knew that the ancient Hawaiians used to farm salt, and she knew that many were land rich but money-poor, so she decided to teach some Hawaiians how to farm salt again. The company she started, called Hawaii Kai, has helped some residents make a pretty good living.

    The malihini who move to Moloka'i, as long as they don't get pushy and insist on having their own way, are welcomed with open arms by the community. McAfee ran into problems because he started developing his land without permits. He actually did help the community a little by giving the high school some money for band uniforms. But he was an absentee owner whose primary residence was elsewhere. When he tried to buy the ahupua'a where Iliilopae heiau is located, the locals were upset because they feared he would make that site kapu from the kanakas. He eventually decided not to buy the land.

    Moloka'i is a very magical place. The moment you step off the plane, you feel the mana. Moloka'i is the piko of hula. It's no wonder the people there want to preserve as much of it as they can from development. It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 2nd, 2007 at 11:38 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  2. #127
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Smokin' in da windward crib
    Posts
    6,721

    Question Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Could Oahu, with its 1 million population, be able to even get the same 300 people to a community meeting? I doubt it.
    That's an interesting GUESS, though unsupported by any facts.
    But that's not the reason I replied. This comment about Moloka`i is:

    It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.
    Just before that you were mentioning all the malihini on Moloka`i, so I'm curious how that (and other factors) justifies putting Moloka`i ahead of Ni`ihau as "the last "Hawaiian" island."
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  3. #128
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kailua
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by admin View Post
    ... If you want to continue to debate the topic, continue to debate the topic, but leave the snark, sniping, and personal judgements out of it. Plenty of topics inspire strong feelings. You do everyone a favor by directing them toward the issue rather than the people with whom you disagree.
    FINALLY!
    At last, a glimmer of reason. ^


    I find that a lot of people attempting to defend the Superferry make posts that fall into the definition of a "web-troll",

    ----------------------------------------------
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    "2 TROLL
    One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad homonym attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue."
    ----------------------------------------------

    ...so I would like to hear from a REAL Superferry supporter who is willing to engage in reasonable, civil dicsussion.

  4. #129

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    It appears that the State and Coast Guard are continuing their plans for enforcing the security zone at Nawiliwili if they encounter the same kinds of situations that existed when the HSF tried to sail into the harbor in August.

    The number of security vessels stockpiled at the busy Eastside port has fluctuated since Aug. 28, the day after protesters formed a human blockade in the water that prevented Hawaii Superferry’s 350-foot “Alakai” catamaran from docking on its second passenger-paying run from O‘ahu.

    The augmented Coast Guard force remains ready to carry out a new federal rule that creates a security zone in the harbor designed to protect protesters while ensuring commerce has the right to transit, Titchen said.

    The zone restricts access past a demarcation line in the harbor and on the jetty road where more than 500 protesters waved signs and chanted slogans during the Alakai’s inaugural trip Aug. 26.

    “We’re not stockpiling boats and weapons,” Titchen said. “We’re trying to find ways to de-escalate the situation. Most people would recognize that we’re trying to find the best and most reasonable course of action.”

    Some Garden Island residents disagree.

    “It’s like we’re under martial law when we have that kind of military flotilla ready to go after women and children,” Prince- ville resident Anne Thurston said. “It’s a serious threat to democracy.”

    Some community members say they find it “ironic” that state officials can disregard environmental laws as Gov. Linda Lingle flaunts the consequences to breaking the security zone rule.
    A suit challenging the Coast Guard's security zone will be heard this Friday in Circuit Court in Honolulu.

    “The regulation under which the Coast Guard adopted the rule states that its purpose is to prevent sabotage, subversion and terrorism,” Sinkin said in an e-mail. “The rule adopted is being used to suppress First Amendment protected speech, guarantee profits for a private business and aid and abet lawless activity. None of these purposes are permissible uses of the regulation.”

    Sinkin said the “aiding and abetting lawless activity” is the governor’s Unified Command using the security zone to ensure the Superferry continues to operate despite the Supreme Court ruling that applies Hawai‘i Revised Statutes Chapter 343 to the $40 million in state harbor improvements to accommodate the Alakai.

    “That section requires an EA when environmental impacts are possible and requires the EA to be completed and accepted as a ‘condition precedent’ to the initiation of the action in question,” he said.

    “Here that means that the EA must be completed before the Superferry is allowed to use the harbor improvements, i.e. Superferry is required to cease operations. The governor is just making up a new law that would allow Superferry to operate while preparing the EA.”
    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  5. #130
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foster Village
    Posts
    1,234

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    I don't recall a court hearing that says the Maui decision applied to Nawiliwili.

    The Coast Guard is enforcing the 100 yard rule for PUBLIC SAFETY, to protect over-zealous "free speakers" from endangering themselves and the ferry, its passengers and cargo.

    The ferry has just as much right to dock at Nawiliwili as those folks have to speak freely. The right of one does not trump the right of the other.

    The ferry docking at Nawiliwili could be considered someone else's expression of free speech, if you think about it. Would you impede someone else's lawful freedom while claiming it for yourself?

    Where is the justice in that? Just because your free speech contradicts the other's free speech, that does not give you precedence over someone else's freedom.

    (I wasn't referring specifically to "you" when I wrote "you." I probably should have said "one's" instead. -- Blaine)
    Last edited by zztype; October 2nd, 2007 at 01:10 PM. Reason: clarification of "you"
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  6. #131
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kailua
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    That's an interesting perspective, zz.

    I believe both driving and docking a ferry are probably not be considered a "right", though.

    If operating a car is a privilige (not a right), then I would assume a operating a ferry is at least as restricted. I believe that the ferry operators must be given license to operate in the state.; they have to go through a process prior to starting up service, some of which, I'm sure, includes public hearings, but i don't know the particulars.

    Your point makes me think more on this issue than most other recent posts, though.

  7. #132

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by woodman View Post
    That's an interesting perspective, zz.

    I believe both driving and docking a ferry are probably not be considered a "right", though.

    If operating a car is a privilige (not a right), then I would assume a operating a ferry is at least as restricted. I believe that the ferry operators must be given license to operate in the state.; they have to go through a process prior to starting up service, some of which, I'm sure, includes public hearings, but i don't know the particulars.

    Your point makes me think more on this issue than most other recent posts, though.
    Taking it a little further, if docking a ferry is a right (the right of a company to do business), then what about the rights of the businesses that already exist in an area whose livelihood will be adversely affected by promoting the right of that other company to do business?

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  8. #133
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foster Village
    Posts
    1,234

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    But back on my point: The 100 yard zone is not to hamper free speech, but to protect public safety. Yes, it could be construed by those who wish to swim out in front of a large vessel as curtailing their free speech. But the government is not doing it to curtail the speech, but rather for the safety of all involved.

    Just as a police officer would not stand by and let you light a match to immolate yourself, or would not let you jump off a building if they could somehow help prevent it... see what Iʻm getting at?

    No matter how much you proclaimed that jumping off the building was your expression of free speech, the emergency personnel would do everything they could to stop you from doing so.

    The government response to such a possibility would be to legislate fencing or otherwise securing the high places where someone might contemplate exercising such "free speech."

    Those wishing to exercise that speech might feel impinged upon, but the government's responsibility to inhibit that form of speech would probably be upheld over the individual's right.

    Blaine
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  9. #134

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Taking it a little further, if docking a ferry is a right (the right of a company to do business), then what about the rights of the businesses that already exist in an area whose livelihood will be adversely affected by promoting the right of that other company to do business?
    Isn't that called a market economy? Otherwise, I fail to see how one can find up to four gas stations at a busy intersection, shouldn't the gov't have stepped in to limit the latter three from ever setting up shop at that intersection since it would adversely affect the livelihood of the first gas station?

  10. #135

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Isn't that called a market economy? Otherwise, I fail to see how one can find up to four gas stations at a busy intersection, shouldn't the gov't have stepped in to limit the latter three from ever setting up shop at that intersection since it would adversely affect the livelihood of the first gas station?
    But the businesses being impacted by HSF at Kahului and Nawiliwili harbors are not in the same business as HSF and don't compete with each other anyway: on Maui, there's a bank, a fabric store, a trendy fashion store for young women and a restaurant. In Nawiliwili harbor, it's the Kauai Food Bank, Hesse Flooring and Island Liquidators.

    An EA would study the effects of the HSF traffic on these businesses and suggest possible mitigations. Doing the EA while allowing the HSF to operate might just cause some of these local businesses to fail. Better to look at mitigation ahead of time.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 2nd, 2007 at 05:10 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  11. #136
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    582

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post
    But back on my point: The 100 yard zone is not to hamper free speech, but to protect public safety. Yes, it could be construed by those who wish to swim out in front of a large vessel as curtailing their free speech. But the government is not doing it to curtail the speech, but rather for the safety of all involved.


    Blaine
    This wouldn't be the first time free speech and distance requirements have come into play thanks to that awful "church" group from Topeka that pickets funerals.

    http://www.silha.umn.edu/Winter%2020...20Protests.pdf

  12. #137

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    The unemployment rate on Moloka'i as of Aug. 2007, was 5.9%, about double the State average, but not really that bad, when you consider that Moloka'i has no big industries (except for Moloka'i Ranch).
    And why don't they have more jobs?

    I don't care how they become an economically self-sufficient community, as long as it's legal - just do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.
    The last one the average person can book a flight to.

  13. #138

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    But the businesses being impacted by HSF at Kahului and Nawiliwili harbors are not in the same business as HSF and don't compete with each other anyway: on Maui, there's a bank, a fabric store, a trendy fashion store for young women and a restaurant. In Nawiliwili harbor, it's the Kauai Food Bank, Hesse Flooring and Island Liquidators.

    An EA would study the effects of the HSF traffic on these businesses and suggest possible mitigations. Doing the EA while allowing the HSF to operate might just cause some of these local businesses to fail. Better to look at mitigation ahead of time.
    But what you're suggesting is borderline big brother, you're dictating what businesses gets to stay in business and what goes? You live in Seattle, a big city, it's often common to see a new retail building go up and it may not have the same businesses as the old surrounding area but it effectively kills off the old area. Would you say that needs to be stopped?



    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    And why don't they have more jobs?

    I don't care how they become an economically self-sufficient community, as long as it's legal - just do it.
    Here's my take. If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.

  14. #139
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Smokin' in da windward crib
    Posts
    6,721

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Here are the results of a new poll as published today. Though it's clearly not the be-all and end-all for determining how everyone in our state feels, it's interesting nonetheless:

    Poll finds broad support for Superferry

    The poll, taken between Thursday and Sunday, surveyed 300 randomly selected registered voters throughout the state. It had a margin of error of plus or minus 6 percent, according to QMark.
    According to the poll, 55 percent of the voters surveyed had a "very favorable" perception of the Superferry and another 31 percent said their perception was "somewhat favorable."
    When asked whether they thought the Legislature should intervene if necessary to allow the Superferry to resume service while an environmental survey is conducted, 72 percent said yes.
    So 86% have a favorable perception of it and 72% say it should operate during the environmental assessment. Those numbers are pretty much as expected.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  15. #140
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kailua
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Here's my take. If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.
    That sounds fair enough, but you still have to account for the balance between increased human traffic and increased infrastructure.

    It seems extremely shortsighted to make allowances for a sudden increase in human traffic in small communities without giving adequate consideration to proper infrastructural development necessary to accommodated that increase.

    Everyone needs to eat, sleep, poop, and travel, and in an increasingly litigious society there will of course be need for increases in emergency medical and legal services.

    So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.

  16. #141

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.
    I would have to think about how isolated a community is allowed to be, but otherwise I agree.

  17. #142

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by woodman View Post
    So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.
    That's all well and fine - until you talk about HSF and Kauai. The numbers involved aren't that significant. Would we have that big a protest if AA/HA/Go! added an extra flight or two? Didn't HAL just say they had to add night flights to compete with Go? Where was all the protests over that?

  18. #143
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kailua
    Posts
    146

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    That's all well and fine - until you talk about HSF and Kauai. The numbers involved aren't that significant. Would we have that big a protest if AA/HA/Go! added an extra flight or two? Didn't HAL just say they had to add night flights to compete with Go? Where was all the protests over that?
    I can see your point, but

    1.) they're not bringing their cars. They are using vehicles that are already on the road and operated by renal car compaies.

    2.) here is currently a price war between air carriers, and the airlines are hemorrhaging money. I don't think those flights are full any more than I would expect that $9 is the acceptable standard fare for a ticket. When the war ends, the ticket price will rise, and flights will probably be cut back.

  19. #144
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    glossyp says: "The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items."

    And who among such producers needs to or is willing to take at least a two day overnighter to Oahu, via Superferry or any ferry, just to get their product to Oahu? Small scale farmers on Kauai do okay at Kauai farmer markets. Larger scale Kauai farmers are not clamoring for a faster route to Oahu for their products, and Superferry will not be cheaper than current shipping routes as soon as Superferry rates reflect their operating costs plus their investors' profit margin. Is there a farmer large scale or small who feels it necessary to spend the time and costs to babysit his produce across the channel, spend at least one overnight on Oahu and then return to Kauai with his vehicle by water ferry on a regular basis? If the Superferry gang is banking on such Kauai farmers they in for a deserved surprise.

    ++-
    glossyp: "... the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent.."

    Many interested and competent high school students are not drawn toward an agricutural because "the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal", not the other way around. It is derisively laughable to suggest that the Superferry has even one iota of impact toward making the future of agriculture on Kauai any less dismal than it is.
    Kauai is not the only Hawaiian island that merits being called a garden island. However, such merits reside in potential far more than actuality. Industrial farming products from California help doom agriculture in Hawaii; even so, without reasonably available, priced and taxed arable land in Hawaii, agriculture that includes more than industrial monocrops (on leased state and homestead lands and questionable water diversions) cannot flourish in Hawaii as they could and should because the very limited land of the islands is being sold off to highest bidder land speculators bearing mainland/foreign monies.

    +++-
    glossyp: "...as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such?"

    Would that Oahu's legislators ask that of themselves about Hawaii as they ask of themselves how they can help push Superferry down the throats of Kauai citizens!!

    ++++-
    glossyp: "How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? "


    That's kind of like asking: How many energized and committed students would it take to set Hawaii on a course leading to a promising and sustainable future?

    So, with respect to agriculture in Hawaii, the first question to ask and be answered should be: How many energized and committed Hawaii legislators would it take to help agriculture thrive?

    Considering how many Hawaii legislators hold a real estate license enabling them to profit from their "repesentative duties", I would not hold my breath expecting any change of conscience to benefit the future of agriculture in Hawaii from those quarters.

  20. #145
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    joshuatree: " If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference. "

    Why not round out your picture as regards Kauai, self-sufficiency and "outside interference":

    1) Kauai citizens stop paying State and Federal taxes

    2) Kauai lease PMRF to U.S. Navy

    3) Kauai use non-U.S. shipping concerns and not deal with U.S. import taxes

    4) Kauai be able to seek foreign investments independent of U.S./Hawaii restrictions

    5) Kauai impose and collect taxes and user fees (in euros, yen, loonies?)

    ...and more benefits of not being gagged, bound, hands to feet by colonial laws meant to subjugate Kauai citizens for the benefit of the U.S. and the State who together create all the dependency conditions which the pro-Superferries gang complains about.

    Yet still the arrogance persists that somehow Honolulu/Oahu society is self-supporting, self-sustaining while Oahu's neighbor islanders are significantly less so?! Such an assumption is so absurd it cannot begin to merit being arguably sensical.
    Last edited by craig foo; October 3rd, 2007 at 09:19 AM.

  21. #146

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by woodman View Post
    That sounds fair enough, but you still have to account for the balance between increased human traffic and increased infrastructure.

    It seems extremely shortsighted to make allowances for a sudden increase in human traffic in small communities without giving adequate consideration to proper infrastructural development necessary to accommodated that increase.

    Everyone needs to eat, sleep, poop, and travel, and in an increasingly litigious society there will of course be need for increases in emergency medical and legal services.

    So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.
    I take it we are now referring back to Kauai? My statement was directed more at the Molokai situation that Gecko was discussing. However, regarding the Kauai scenario, just how many visitors head to Kauai in a year? What would HSF's contribution be? I seriously doubt their contribution is anywhere near the cruise ships or the airlines. HSF hasn't been even proven yet, are you suggesting money be poured into infrastructure for what may become a failed enterprise? Isn't that being shortsighted from a different angle?


    Quote Originally Posted by woodman View Post
    I can see your point, but

    1.) they're not bringing their cars. They are using vehicles that are already on the road and operated by renal car compaies.
    Yes, you have a point about the cars but you have to also realize, the car issue may be null if one assumes that these people coming in by HSF would have rented cars if they flew in. I think it's safe to leave the cruise ship visitors out of this comparison because I doubt many Hawaii residents travel to another island by cruise ship. So they bring in their cars but don't rent one, that cancels one another.

  22. #147

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    joshuatree: " If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference. "

    Why not round out your picture as regards Kauai, self-sufficiency and "outside interference":

    1) Kauai citizens stop paying State and Federal taxes

    2) Kauai lease PMRF to U.S. Navy

    3) Kauai use non-U.S. shipping concerns and not deal with U.S. import taxes

    4) Kauai be able to seek foreign investments independent of U.S./Hawaii restrictions

    5) Kauai impose and collect taxes and user fees (in euros, yen, loonies?)

    ...and more benefits of not being gagged, bound, hands to feet by colonial laws meant to subjugate Kauai citizens for the benefit of the U.S. and the State who together create all the dependency conditions which the pro-Superferries gang complains about.

    Yet still the arrogance persists that somehow Honolulu/Oahu society is self-supporting, self-sustaining while Oahu's neighbor islanders are significantly less so?! Such an assumption is so absurd it cannot begin to merit being arguably sensical.
    Well, if Kauai is an independent state, then all your suggestions can apply but it's not. From your post, I take it you wish for Kauai sovereignty? If so, nothing wrong, but that would explain the tone in your posts.

    I will correct my statement that since Kauaians do pay taxes, if a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to take no more public assistance than what they put into the system vis-a-vis taxes. This is similiar to what Gecko was asking about the Molokai siutation. If you take more than you put in, outside influence isn't being forced on you at that point.

    There is no arrogance from me, I don't see Oahu as self-supporting or self-sustaining but then, Oahu doesn't seem to have a problem with interisland commerce or interstate commerce. No one is jumping into Honolulu Harbor to stop the HSF.

  23. #148

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    glossyp says: "The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items."

    And who among such producers needs to or is willing to take at least a two day overnighter to Oahu, via Superferry or any ferry, just to get their product to Oahu? Small scale farmers on Kauai do okay at Kauai farmer markets. Larger scale Kauai farmers are not clamoring for a faster route to Oahu for their products, and Superferry will not be cheaper than current shipping routes as soon as Superferry rates reflect their operating costs plus their investors' profit margin. Is there a farmer large scale or small who feels it necessary to spend the time and costs to babysit his produce across the channel, spend at least one overnight on Oahu and then return to Kauai with his vehicle by water ferry on a regular basis? If the Superferry gang is banking on such Kauai farmers they in for a deserved surprise.

    ++-
    glossyp: "... the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent.."

    Many interested and competent high school students are not drawn toward an agricutural because "the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal", not the other way around. It is derisively laughable to suggest that the Superferry has even one iota of impact toward making the future of agriculture on Kauai any less dismal than it is.
    Kauai is not the only Hawaiian island that merits being called a garden island. However, such merits reside in potential far more than actuality. Industrial farming products from California help doom agriculture in Hawaii; even so, without reasonably available, priced and taxed arable land in Hawaii, agriculture that includes more than industrial monocrops (on leased state and homestead lands and questionable water diversions) cannot flourish in Hawaii as they could and should because the very limited land of the islands is being sold off to highest bidder land speculators bearing mainland/foreign monies.

    +++-
    glossyp: "...as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such?"

    Would that Oahu's legislators ask that of themselves about Hawaii as they ask of themselves how they can help push Superferry down the throats of Kauai citizens!!

    ++++-
    glossyp: "How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? "


    That's kind of like asking: How many energized and committed students would it take to set Hawaii on a course leading to a promising and sustainable future?

    So, with respect to agriculture in Hawaii, the first question to ask and be answered should be: How many energized and committed Hawaii legislators would it take to help agriculture thrive?

    Considering how many Hawaii legislators hold a real estate license enabling them to profit from their "repesentative duties", I would not hold my breath expecting any change of conscience to benefit the future of agriculture in Hawaii from those quarters.
    Thanks for finally taking the time to reply. It is clear that we disagree on whether or not HSF can be a plus for farmers on Kauai. I believe that the more options farmers/producers have for transporting goods and expanding markets creates a potential that did not exist before.

    We'll have a better idea of the general condition of agriculture state and county wide when the 2007 ag census is done. One stat worth noting is that the actual number of crop acres harvested increased by nearly 10 percent from the 1997 ag census to the 2002 one.
    Last edited by glossyp; October 3rd, 2007 at 12:28 PM. Reason: add info

  24. #149

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    But what you're suggesting is borderline big brother, you're dictating what businesses gets to stay in business and what goes? You live in Seattle, a big city, it's often common to see a new retail building go up and it may not have the same businesses as the old surrounding area but it effectively kills off the old area. Would you say that needs to be stopped?
    .
    What I'm saying is that the EA would look at the impact on business and then provide the current businesses some relief in the form of mitigations. Around here, no building can be torn down and replaced without an EA automatically generated, at bare minimum. And there are always public notices so that concerned citizens can send comments to City Hall.

    Is it the fault of the incumbent businesses that a new business comes into the area? Of course not. But I also don't think it's fair that the bank, the restaurant, the fabric store don't have any access to relief from the onslaught of traffic which may not benefit them. Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me? If mitigations occur and the businesses still have to shut down, that's one thing. But to force this major change on those businesses without taking their needs into consideration is also big brother.

    Yes, you have a point about the cars but you have to also realize, the car issue may be null if one assumes that these people coming in by HSF would have rented cars if they flew in. I think it's safe to leave the cruise ship visitors out of this comparison because I doubt many Hawaii residents travel to another island by cruise ship. So they bring in their cars but don't rent one, that cancels one another.
    That is true, once the cars are out of the immediate harbor area. But you cannot deny the fact that 180 cars coming off a boat on one small road with no other egress in or out (as it true for both Kahului and Nawiliwili) will create congestion as they try to merge onto the arterial in a very limited amount of time. This doesn't happen at the airports, where the car rental companies are situated outside the immediate airport and rental cars have more than one way to leave the area.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 3rd, 2007 at 12:41 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  25. #150

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me?
    So why the big stink about not letting the EA and HSF service run concurrently? What no one knows right now is what the actual traffic patterns will be with HSF docking. Maybe that bank or restaurant or fabric store will get more business? Usually, businesses want traffic, that helps with their bottom line. If an EA and HSF service is run concurrently and issues develop, HSF service can always be suspended much like what we see now. So why the win-only-if-it-suits me mentality that we see now?

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •