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Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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    Exclamation Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Judge rules against Hawaii Superferry
    The Hawaii Superferry will not be allowed to operate during the state's preparation of an environmental assessment of ferry-related improvements at Kahului Harbor, a Maui judge ruled today. Hawaii Superferry President and CEO John Garibaldi has said such a ruling would essentially kill the company's plans for doing business in Hawaii.

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Das it! Dey going take the SuperFerry some place else.

    Shame on Hawaii!

    Auntie Lynn
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    I don't understand why the Superferry people didn't bother to do the EIS for all islands it was going to ahead of the boats arrival or when they were being built or even before that.

    It was really arrogant of the Lingle Administration and the Department of Transportation to give the green light on something with such a legal loophole when we are all going to end up paying for a ferry system that is operating in another state (taxpayers subsidized the building of the ships and the improvements to the ports).

    If they had done the EIS and it was cleared, there wouldn't be much argument by opponents and people would be ferried back and forth now.

    Also, the Superferry didn't help themselves by deciding to start early. It was a bad move I think. It probably helped to incite people.

    The whole Superferry thing didn't seem well thought out or planned anyway. There was always a question about the ports not being ready to handle the traffic.

    I grew up in the Seattle area, and on board the state ferries they usually have a police officer from the jurisdiction where the boat is headed in case there is trouble. They even have space on board to detain someone. I never heard anything about that either for the Superferry.

    The only real solution for a ferry system in Hawaii is if it's an official state transportation system, and not a private enterprise because it's not always going to be a money maker. It was bound to fail anyway I think. If it was a state transport system, the Coast Guard would have had no doubts about protecting a public vessel instead of a private one. I think it was weird that a private vessel was protected like a public one. The Coast Guard should send the bill to Superferry. They wouldn't have to if it was public transit.

    The bottom line is that there was plenty of time for all of the items to be addressed before they were going to start, and in the end the Lingle Administration and the DOT cut the red tape for the things that should have already been addressed/fixed/complete and green lighted the project anyway. We are all going to eat the bill for this blunder.
    Last edited by Kittrick; October 9th, 2007 at 11:24 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    I don't understand why the Superferry people didn't bother to do the EIS for all islands it was going to ahead of the boats arrival or when they were being built or even before that.
    As I read it, it was because the State said they didn't have to. As a business, why would they spend the time and money on that process, if the governmental department that has the authority over you says you are in the clear to go ahead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    I grew up in the Seattle area
    Oh dear - you shouldn't have said that. Shields up!

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    As I read it, it was because the State said they didn't have to. As a business, why would they spend the time and money on that process, if the governmental department that has the authority over you says you are in the clear to go ahead?
    Oh dear - you shouldn't have said that. Shields up!
    I read somewhere that the Federal Government guaranteed the money for the Superferry being built provided that the State could assure that there would be no environmental concerns or hangups regarding the ports (sounds like an EIS was needed). The state screwed up big time, and we are going to eat it.

    Why shields up?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    I'm kind of surprised that Judge Cardoza said no sailing to Kahului until after an EA was completed. I figured he would split the difference and say yes, it could sail, but the speed would have to be greatly reduced, and more had to be done to clean the undercarriages of the cars prior to boarding.

    At this point, I fully expect that the Gov. will force the Legislature into special session. The travesty of it all is that this issue could have been settled during the regular session of the Legislature had not one politician from Maui decided to kill the bill before it could be voted on by the House. Now the taxpayers of the State will have to pay for something that could have been settled months ago, and that would have allowed HSF to sail while the EA was being conducted.

    The hearing just ended (I was watching it on Akaku). The legal team for HSF/DOT will be filing an appeal, but I wonder if they can get through all the paperwork in the next few weeks. Didn't Garibaldi say something like he needed to know for sure by mid-November or he'd have to move the boat out of state?

    And that still leaves the issue of Kaua'i. I think they've got an appeal filed in the HSC, but I don't know when that will be heard.

    Given the huge fiasco that the State created through the misinterpretation of Hawai'i environmental law, I think the Gov's hopes for a Senate seat in 2 years are going the way of the Superferry. She really made a mess of the whole thing even worse by creating that Unified Command on Kaua'i.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 9th, 2007 at 11:38 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    The state screwed up big time, and we are going to eat it.
    Sadly, you are probably right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    Why shields up?
    You'll have to wait for it...(or go back to read the earlier "chapters" - making a reference to perspectives from outside Hawai`i may not sit well with some participants.)

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Sadly, you are probably right.You'll have to wait for it...(or go back to read the earlier "chapters" - making a reference to perspectives from outside Hawai`i may not sit well with some participants.)
    oh ok, I'll get my rubbish can lid ready heh.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    I think it was weird that a private vessel was protected like a public one. The Coast Guard should send the bill to Superferry. They wouldn't have to if it was public transit.
    Why is it wierd? That's the Coast Guard's role, to protect maritime traffic amongst other things.

    I'm surprised this thread is reopened. Of course, in a different category.

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Why is it wierd? That's the Coast Guard's role, to protect maritime traffic amongst other things.

    I'm surprised this thread is reopened. Of course, in a different category.
    I just thought it was weird, because it wasn't until the Superferry sailed to Kauai that they seemed to decide the "security zone" around the Superferry. I know it's just speculation, but I think if this was a state transportation system and not a private vessel it would have been figured out before the ship even sailed. I'm thinking the Coast Guard really didn't know what to do initially because all of this should have been in place by the Superferry and they (Superferry) didn't know what to do either because they weren't ready. It's so stupid that they didn't seem to plan things out or think through all of the possibilities. It's almost like they just said "Hey, let's build some ships and put some people on board and go between the islands. The end."
    Last edited by Kittrick; October 9th, 2007 at 11:56 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    It's disappointing.
    ___
    "Be god to each other."


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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Personally, I'd love to see everyone just drop the "shields up" nonsense and stick to the real subject, before this thread gets closed too. Some of us worked very hard to just get this new thread allowed. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us who want to discuss the SuperFerry.

    Back to the topic.
    I agree with Miulang in being surprised that the judge totally denied SuperFerry to run at all during the EA.
    Expect 270 employees to be laid off today or tomorrow.
    There can also be no doubt that SuperFerry execs have already been talking to other states or even other countries to take Alakai (and the new boat under construction too) out of Hawaii, and HSF has said that likely will be permanent.
    The world media will have a field day, and Hawaii will be deservedly reviled as a place to do business.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    I just thought it was weird, because it wasn't until the Superferry sailed to Kauai that they seemed to decide the "security zone" around the Superferry. I know it's just speculation, but I think if this was a state transportation system and not a private vessel it would have been figured out before the ship even sailed. I'm thinking the Coast Guard really didn't know what to do initially because all of this should have been in place by the Superferry and they (Superferry) didn't know what to do either because they weren't ready. It's so stupid that they didn't seem to plan things out or think through all of the possibilities. It's almost like they just said "Hey, let's build some ships and put some people on board and go between the islands. The end."
    Well, I think it's the other way around. It's only when the Kauai protesters approached the issue by jumping into the water did the CG decide to kick in the "security zone". That rule has been in place for some time due to 9/11, just never put into action. Of course, the execution was horrible and a wake up call.


    Quote Originally Posted by InfinityProductions View Post
    It's disappointing.
    Agreed!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Back to the topic.
    I agree with Miulang in being surprised that the judge totally denied SuperFerry to run at all during the EA.
    Expect 270 employees to be laid off today or tomorrow.
    There can also be no doubt that SuperFerry execs have already been talking to other states or even other countries to take Alakai (and the new boat under construction too) out of Hawaii, and HSF has said that likely will be permanent.
    The world media will have a field day, and Hawaii will be deservedly reviled as a place to do business.
    Any bets on where it will go? At this point, I would say it's 99% over for the HSF. A company with such operating expenditures simply can't keep hemorrhaging like this.

    So we are without water transport. go! looks like it's lined up next. Again, same old regressive status quo.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    I'm surprised this thread is reopened.
    Please note who reopened it. Not really surprising, since there was some real news to hash over.
    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Some of us worked very hard to just get this new thread allowed.
    While some were responsible for the previous closure, by severely flaming posters with opposing perspectives, rather than staying on topic. No need for high horses here.
    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    Expect 270 employees to be laid off today or tomorrow.
    There can also be no doubt that SuperFerry execs have already been talking to other states or even other countries to take Alakai (and the new boat under construction too) out of Hawaii, and HSF has said that likely will be permanent.
    The world media will have a field day, and Hawaii will be deservedly reviled as a place to do business.
    Staying on-topic with you, how much room do you think Garibaldi will give to Lingle and the Legislature, to try to find a solution that will be beneficial to them? Lingle's been a huge supporter of HSF, and you know she's going to ask them to hold off on any dramatic responses - especially if Garibaldi said that mid-November was the cut-off date, another month away. The pressure will be intense on the Legislature now.

    How many employees does HSF have at present? Those 270 you mention - what percentage of the total HSF workforce is that? What type of workers will those be, do you think, and who will be retained?

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Well, I think it's the other way around. It's only when the Kauai protesters approached the issue by jumping into the water did the CG decide to kick in the "security zone". That rule has been in place for some time due to 9/11, just never put into action. Of course, the execution was horrible and a wake up call.




    Agreed!!!!




    Any bets on where it will go? At this point, I would say it's 99% over for the HSF. A company with such operating expenditures simply can't keep hemorrhaging like this.

    So we are without water transport. go! looks like it's lined up next. Again, same old regressive status quo.
    They should refurbish the inside where the cars go and make it a floating casino so we the taxpayers can make our money back 12 miles (or whatever the international water boundaries are) out to sea. We paid for these boats, and we should at least use them!

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stwahine View Post
    Das it! Dey going take the SuperFerry some place else.

    Shame on Hawaii!
    I say, Shame on Hawaii's Lawmakers.
    They obviously did not give this adequate consideration before they jumped into it. As a result, they

    a.) are responsible for putting Superferry owners in this position, and also ...
    b.) show investors around the world how unprofitable it is to do business with Hawaii's Government Institutions.

    Can anyone remember the freeway project where work was being done at two different ends of the freeway?
    ...and when it was almost done, the point at where the two ends were supposed to meet was on two separate planes?

    How about the UH softball stadium that was "unsuitable" because the seating not only forgot to ALLOW for a view of the playing field, but it actually OBSTRUCTED the view of the field?

    Add:

    HNL airport contracts,
    Ewa Villages Projects,
    liquor commission inspectors,
    a bunch of crooked politicians (Andy Mirikitani, Rene Mansho, Marshal Ige),
    and a few ruthless union thugs ( http://starbulletin.com/2002/11/20/news/story1.html )

    ...then shake well, and pour contents into a bowl.


    There, you have it:

    Hawaii's public business environment!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    They should refurbish the inside where the cars go and make it a floating casino so we the taxpayers can make our money back 12 miles (or whatever the international water boundaries are) out to sea. We paid for these boats, and we should at least use them!
    We didn't really pay for the boats, the feds did so the rest of America owns a piece of it too. We do however, own the barges. Maybe floating casinos 12 miles out?

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    Thumbs down Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    While some were responsible for the previous closure, by severely flaming posters with opposing perspectives, rather than staying on topic. No need for high horses here.
    That does it. I'm out of here.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    We didn't really pay for the boats, the feds did so the rest of America owns a piece of it too. We do however, own the barges. Maybe floating casinos 12 miles out?
    Floating barges 12 miles out to sea doesn't sound like my idea of a fun boat ride. A lot of people will get sick I bet.

    If the Superferry was to leave the state, it could move homeless/non-homeless people who wanted to leave Hawaii really fast wherever it was going. Like the FedEx of boats!

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    If the Superferry was to leave the state, it could move homeless/non-homeless people who wanted to leave Hawaii really fast wherever it was going.
    I don't think it could do that. It doesn't have the on-board facilities to handle a lot of people that are going to stay on board for more than a day.

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    I don't think it could do that. It doesn't have the on-board facilities to handle a lot of people that are going to stay on board for more than a day.
    Plus, if the SuperFerry ran out of toilet paper or coffee during the trip would seriously be a bad thing! Especially if they were going far.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Whenever seemingly "bad" things happen, I always think that they happen for a reason (same thing with "good" things). In this case, the good that is coming out of this is that the State has finally committed to do an EA on ALL the commercial boat harbors in the State, which means that the next enterprise that proposes a ferry system for the State (and I don't doubt there WILL be another one if not HSF, because the need has been expressed and demonstrated) will know what is expected prior to starting business. And best of all, passengers on all islands can be assured that the service is wanted and well planned for. I really don't think a big tent and Porta Potties is sufficient for a ferry terminal, I don't care which island you're talking about.

    If the Legislature is called into special session (which I can almost guarantee) and if they approve the action that they should have approved during the regular session (to let HSF run during the EA process), I don't doubt that Isaac Hall on Maui will be before the Hawai'i State Supreme Court again with another request for a preliminary injunction, which will tie the whole issue up for god knows how long.

    I really believe that Judge Cardoza did his best to be fair and to interpret the State laws in a fair manner. He sounded very tortured when he said that he realized what a huge economic impact his decision would make, but he also said no one---from the State, to HSF to the groups on Maui---disagreed that protecting the environment was important.

    Miulang

    P.S. Even after the State was told it had misinterpreted HRS343, they are still doing the same kinds of things in other places in Hawai'i. This Friday, there is a hearing regarding exempting Kukui Gardens from having to do an environmental assessment prior to any proposed redevelopment. When are the public servants going to learn their lesson?
    Last edited by Miulang; October 9th, 2007 at 12:53 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittrick View Post
    I don't understand why the Superferry people didn't bother to do the EIS for all islands it was going to ahead of the boats arrival or when they were being built or even before that.
    Because the state told them they didn't have to.

    And, I repeat, yet again, it is just another boat. Nothing different. Why should only ONE boat, among THOUSANDS be required to comply with the law? Why not the thousands, too?

    If the judge ruled that everybody who uses harbor facilities (Hey, the state built those other piers, too.) had to do this, then there would be no room for criticism. But this is being applied to only one boat. The rest can continue to operate with impunity.

    Not fair.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

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    Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post
    If the judge ruled that everybody who uses harbor facilities (Hey, the state built those other piers, too.) had to do this, then there would be no room for criticism.
    That's a rediculous oversimplification of the issues, zztype. Not EVERYBODY has a Superferry that requires $40 million harbor improvements just to accomodate it. (in fact most people don’t even have a boat half that size)

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  25. #25

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post

    If the judge ruled that everybody who uses harbor facilities (Hey, the state built those other piers, too.) had to do this, then there would be no room for criticism. But this is being applied to only one boat. The rest can continue to operate with impunity.

    Not fair.
    The problem is, he could only hand down a decision regarding Kahului Harbor and HSF. If HSF wants to sail, legally there's no reason why it can't go to Nawiliwili, except for incurring the wrath of the protestors, who, because of the Maui decision, will feel even more empowered and would turn out in greater numbers than ever. Oh yeah, and HSF saying it's all or nothing---no Maui, no Kaua'i either.

    And I think the Legislature is finally getting it that they can't be loosey goosey about enforcing the laws anymore. They are commissioning a study on the impact of the cruise industry on Hawai'i to be conducted at the same time that they do the EA on the harbors. Next will come YB and Matson, unless the Legislature decides to revert to its passive/aggressive old ways. What the Maui hearing brought out was that yes, YB and Matson also need to be monitored more closely for the invasive species issue (whale strikes weren't an issue because the barges and cruise liners would never go as fast as HSF was proposing).

    If the soon-to-be-laid off HSF employees are willing to leave the state for a job, I'm sure Hornblower (the company that actually hired most of the staff) would be able to find them good jobs on CONUS, since they are already trained.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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