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Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

  1. #26

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    P.S. Even after the State was told it had misinterpreted HRS343, they are still doing the same kinds of things in other places in Hawai'i. This Friday, there is a hearing regarding exempting Kukui Gardens from having to do an environmental assessment prior to any proposed redevelopment. When are the public servants going to learn their lesson?
    Because HRS343 still permits it.

    No good has come out of this at all. If a legislative session revised and cleaned up 343 of any ambiguity, then yes, some good came. But more bad occurred than good. You probably will not see any massive investment like go! or HSF for a very long time. It will still be the old boys club.

    Does anyone know if the BC area of Canada can use these ferries? WA state? Otherwise, maybe the military? It be ironic if the Navy took possession and used them in the islands to move stuff.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Does anyone know if the BC area of Canada can use these ferries? WA state? Otherwise, maybe the military? It be ironic if the Navy took possession and used them in the islands to move stuff.
    Last week, one of the people high up in Army procurement in Hawai'i said if HSF wanted to bid on a contract to ferry personnel and equipment to Pohakuloa and back to Honolulu, they would be welcome to do so. Currently, the Army apparently uses YB. If the Stryker Brigade does end up being permanently stationed in Hawai'i (it's one of 3 finalists), then it would make sense to use the boat for that. But like you said, it would be beyond ironic as one of the protestors' fears would come true after all.

    BC State Ferries might be able to use it; they lost the Queen of the North last year when it sank It wasn't a high speed ferry like HSF, but a huge ferry anyway. They've got this creaky ferry (I think it's the Queen of Prince Rupert) going between Prince Rupert and Skidegate in Haida Gwai'i that takes 8 hours (overnight) to cross the Hecate Strait. It would probably take half that long if HSF was operating up there and be way more comfortable.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 9th, 2007 at 01:22 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  3. #28

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    But like you said, it would be beyond ironic as one of the protestors fears would come true after all.
    It would become a self fulfilling prophecy as the HSF then would still ply Hawaiian waters and be less subjected to scrutiny under the protection of the military? Though it might make sense for HSF because then they already have the crews in place so you might avoid laying off the entire 270 staff.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    That's a rediculous oversimplification of the issues, zztype. Not EVERYBODY has a Superferry that requires $40 million harbor improvements just to accomodate it. (in fact most people don’t even have a boat half that size)
    Everybody, meaning ALL harbor users, makes use of facilities constructed and maintained by the state. The state owns the harbor, not the businesses that use it. Sure, the state made $40 million in improvements to one pier. But they made hundreds of millions of dollars in improvements in all the harbors so that commercial vessels could dock, load and unload cargo and passengers.

    None of those other guys had to stop sailing while an ES was done.

    It's just another boat. One among hundreds, maybe thousands, which uses all our harbor facilities, daily, year-round.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Otherwise, maybe the military? It be ironic if the Navy took possession and used them in the islands to move stuff.
    THAT, would be a HOOT! ROFL!!!
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  6. #31

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    It would become a self fulfilling prophecy as the HSF then would still ply Hawaiian waters and be less subjected to scrutiny under the protection of the military? Though it might make sense for HSF because then they already have the crews in place so you might avoid laying off the entire 270 staff.
    Yeah, wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? A way for HSF to get around all that environmental law stuff is to have it be used solely by the military! Of course, I don't know whether that would be in conflict with the MARAD loan guarantee, though, because I think MARAD money is supposed to be for commercial passenger ferries that could be used in the VISA program in an emergency, not if they are dedicated to military use.

    Wherever Alakai ends up, Lehman et al got what they wanted anyway: the trained staff and shipyard facilities in Alabama to build the next generation of Navy warships.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 9th, 2007 at 01:32 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  7. #32

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Yeah, wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? A way for HSF to get around all that environmental law stuff is to have it be used solely by the military! Of course, I don't know whether that would be in conflict with the MARAD loan guarantee, though, because I think MARAD money is supposed to be for commercial passenger ferries that could be used in the VISA program in an emergency, not if they are dedicated to military use.
    Not if the HSF pulls the plug and goes into loan default. Then the military picks it up for pennies to the dollar, repaints it to camo colors, and contracts the crew back from Hornblower with necessary security clearance. Voila, MARAD obligations fulfilled and nullified.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Not if the HSF pulls the plug and goes into loan default. Then the military picks it up for pennies to the dollar, repaints it to camo colors, and contracts the crew back from Hornblower with necessary security clearance. Voila, MARAD obligations fulfilled and nullified.
    Heh. WestPac2, here we come!

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Right now all of the Strykers vehicles that used to be on Oahu are now in California and after that Iraq. They won't be returning until 2009. By that time whatever environmental studies that need to be done, would be done.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    I think it's a shame that with all of that space, no one even bothered to put fishing poles on the back of the ship.

    I'll bet they don't even have a bar on-board.

    What a waste!

    [edit]
    I was wrong. They DO have a bar.
    http://www.hawaiisuperferry.com/the-...e/default.html

    ...still, no fishing?

    You would think that they could slow down long enough to catch a few Mahi.
    Last edited by woodman; October 9th, 2007 at 01:59 PM.

  11. #36
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    Exclamation Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Wow. I really like the idea of the feds nabbing the Superferry for their own interisland transportation needs. Some folks would benefit (presuming at least service people and their families could use it), the military would largely benefit, and it would be a lovely stick in the eye of all the folks who protested its much more benign civillian use. Don't like Uncle Kimo bringing his '89 Datsun over to fish? Meet the Stryker brigade!

    And as I've said in a previous thread, it'd make a nice dinner cruise vessel (with its own parking!).

    But, I figure, it'll head off to Canada or Hong Kong or some other forward-thinking city and become the "Kowloon Superferry," and much more enlightened populaces will benefit from its many amenities.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by pzarquon View Post
    much more enlightened populaces will benefit from its many amenities.
    That may be the harshest outcome of this whole fiasco (if HSF leaves, that is) - not so much the loss of a service that a majority of residents seemed to want, but a huge reinforcement of the belief that Hawai`i is a crappy place to do business. Not just expensive or challenging - but downright hostile, which will discourage other companies and services from trying to make a go of it in the Islands.

    I truly wonder how many businesses who may have been considering a move into the Hawai`i market at present will now say "forget it," due to the SuperFerry issue.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by pzarquon View Post
    Wow. I really like the idea of the feds nabbing the Superferry
    ... it would be a lovely stick in the eye of all the folks who protested its much more benign civillian use. Don't like Uncle Kimo bringing his '89 Datsun over to fish? Meet the Stryker brigade!
    Yeah, I think there was a lot of unreasonable fanaticism on both sides of this issue.

    I probably wouldn't have used it unless it was actually cheaper than flying airline & using a rental car, and with the way that things were shaping up, it didn't seem like rates were ever going to be that cheap.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    That may be the harshest outcome of this whole fiasco (if HSF leaves, that is) - not so much the loss of a service that a majority of residents seemed to want, but a huge reinforcement of the belief that Hawai`i is a crappy place to do business. Not just expensive or challenging - but downright hostile, which will discourage other companies and services from trying to make a go of it in the Islands.

    I truly wonder how many businesses who may have been considering a move into the Hawai`i market at present will now say "forget it," due to the SuperFerry issue.
    It may not be completely doom and gloom, though. Suppose knowing that the State was concerned about the environment encouraged "green" companies to pursue business opportunities in Hawai'i? If they knew that the business climate was changing from an old boys' club where "money talks and bs walks" was going away? There are ethical companies out there who do want to do good for themselves and the communities they do business in, too. If every business was treated fairly (and it was proven to be true, not just with lip service), it might be appealing enough for some smaller companies to want to make their homes in Hawai'i. Maybe you won't get an IBM or other large corporation to make a beachhead, but the Hoku Scientific and other smaller industries that use few resources might like the idea of being in an environmentally friendly community. The companies that might have second thoughts now about starting business in Hawai'i are the ones who think that money and influence will allow them to circumvent the laws.

    That Hawai'i 2050 Sustainability study is a good place to start envisioning things like this. Hopefully this one, unlike the one that was done 30 years ago, will actually have meaning to the citizens and its recommendations are followed.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 9th, 2007 at 02:21 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  15. #40

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by pzarquon View Post
    Don't like Uncle Kimo bringing his '89 Datsun over to fish? Meet the Stryker brigade!
    That would be an interesting sight. I think those vehicles use solid rubber tires so can't deflate them.

  16. #41
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    Unhappy Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Superferry on 1,000 stolen imu rocks:

    “Superferry attorney Lisa Munger said the resources described by rural Maui residents were not Valley Isle resources, but state resources belonging to residents and visitors.”

    What?! Since when? I better take Timkona’s advice and start carrying a concealed weapon. If visitors are laying claims to rocks of native cultural value, who’s to say they don’t start claiming my apartment, car, HD television, etc.?

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

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  17. #42

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    That would be an interesting sight. I think those vehicles use solid rubber tires so can't deflate them.
    I don't know if I would call them the "next generation" Stryker, but I've seen pictures of the armored vehicles they use in mine sweepring operations now that deflect the impact of those IEDs (I think the ones I saw were being used in Mozambique). They don't even use rubber tires...their tires are 100% STEEL.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  18. #43

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Superferry on 1,000 stolen imu rocks:

    “Superferry attorney Lisa Munger said the resources described by rural Maui residents were not Valley Isle resources, but state resources belonging to residents and visitors.”

    What?! Since when? I better take Timkona’s advice and start carrying a concealed weapon. If visitors are laying claims to rocks of native cultural value, who’s to say they don’t start claiming my apartment, car, HD television, etc.?
    Everytime I watched the hearing on Akaku, I kept hoping that the HSF team would at least provide a strong counter to Isaac Hall. But I was sorely disappointed not only by statements like the above, but the overall quality of the witnesses for their side. Their whale expert had virtually no experience with Hawaiian humpback whales (he was from Canada and studied whales in the Northwest but not Hawai'i); the Dept. of Ag woman couldn't provide any documented facts to prove her statements, the Chamber of Commerce representative admitted that her opinion was that of the Executive Board only and not the entire membership, and on and on. What's embarrassing is they had two attorneys on their side to the one on the other side, and Isaac Hall still came up with better witnesses and facts.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    The Army did not have plans to use the Superferry as a means of transport for the Strykers.

  20. #45
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Keanu says: "The Army did not have plans to use the Superferry as a means of transport for the Strykers."

    Yeah sure.

    So you know the truth and this is all a lie:

    'The Board of Directors of the Hawaii Superferry reads like a roster of revolving door ex-military officials. Like John F. Lehman, former Secretary of the Navy and founder of the investment firm JF Lehman, a company that specializes in investing in military industries with a controlling interest in the Superferry.

    Lehman is associated with the Heritage Foundation, the notorious Right Wing think tank that intellectually and politically influenced such anti-Native Hawaiian and anti-environmental groups as the Grassroots Institute, Pacific Legal Foundation and Aloha for All. He is also associated with the Project for a New American Century, the folks that cooked up the illegal and catastrophic occupation of Iraq and a blueprint for U.S. Empire (well, they euphemistically called it “Pax Americana”).

    Lehman proudly announced that the Hawaii Superferry would partner with the military as a “Westpac Express” to shuttle Strykers and other military personnel and equipment between islands and beyond. The first Westpac Express was a contract between the U.S. military and the Austal Corporation, makers of the Superferry, to move U.S. military personnel and equipment around Australia and Southeast Asia.

    According to testimony from Sean Connaughton, Maritime Administrator of the U.S. Department of Transportation before the House Subcommittee on Seapower and Expeditionary Forces of the Armed Services Committee (March 15, 2007), U.S. taxpayers subsidized $140 million of the $180 million price tag for two Superferries through Title XI loan guarantees. ' ?

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Despite Lehman's comments, the Army does not or should I say did not, have plans to use the Superferry as a means of transport for the Strykers.

    Craig, I'm on your side.

    As an aside, the Army's draft EIS on stationing the 2/25 Stryker Brigade Combat Team in Hawai'i is still under review, although unfortunately, the EIS process is a mere formality.
    Last edited by Keanu; October 9th, 2007 at 03:59 PM.

  22. #47
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Kittrick: " I don't understand why the Superferry people didn't bother to do the EIS for all islands it was going to ahead of the boats arrival or when they were being built or even before that. ...

    The bottom line is that there was plenty of time for all of the items to be addressed before they were going to start, and in the end the Lingle Administration and the DOT cut the red tape for the things that should have already been addressed/fixed/complete and green lighted the project anyway. We are all going to eat the bill for this blunder."

    Superferry did not want to do either an EA or EIS because they knew that opposition would build against their enterprise and above all they wanted the federally guaranteed loan. The Lehman corporate gangsters have likely not yet spent one dime of their own monies. They hedge their bets from so many angles they never loose money; at worst they only make less money than they thought they would. Lehman has been in this kind of business for more than thirty years. He not only knows the ropes, he effectively owns a fair percentage of them, just as he owns Lingle and some Hawaii State legislators.

    As for "eating the bill' for another round of corporate welfare fraud and political corruption: that's how America has been and is built. We are eating and we're going to eat the bill for this nefarious project anyway, thanks to Lingle, but we don't have to eat the creature Lingle has thrown onto our plates.
    Last edited by craig foo; October 9th, 2007 at 04:00 PM.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    What irritates me is the fact that the State Legislature will convene a special session to save the Superferry. No law should be amended for the benefit of a single business. The Legislature as a whole lacks the fortitude to pass substantive legislation during the regular session but they have the politcal will do do this?
    Last edited by Keanu; October 9th, 2007 at 04:36 PM.

  24. #49
    kamuelakea Guest

    Default

    Hah hah. Gottstu juss laugh at this one. These frauds have done it again for Hawaii.

    Must be the only island state, nation, city who actively works to elliminate just one alternative to an interstate travel airplane monopoly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    What irritates me is the fact that the State Legislature will convene a special session to save the Superferry. The Legislature as a whole lacks the fortitude to pass substantive legislation during the regular session but they have the politcal will do do this?
    Yes they will because they know the state should have an alternative interstate travel option and because they already spent millions on the harbors.

    So I think they will overrule this decision.

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
    What irritates me is the fact that the State Legislature will convene a special session to save the Superferry. No law should be amended for the benefit of a single business.
    Ain't that just like them!

    They could piddle away 30 years while H-3 was under construction, but now they consider it criticle to remedy the superferry issue in special session?

    It reminds me of the time the legislature spent $1 million to "study" the aloha spirit ('94 session I think).

    I would have loved to have been on THAT research team.

    "OH, Look! There it is, over there."

    "No, wait! it moved.
    There it is. Quick, go catch it!"

    Oyi! What a joke.

    Lucky you live Hawaii, eh!

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