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Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    Try to put yourself in our place. Sure we're at the same table: while you're sitting at the table salivating with anticipation of a hearty meal, we're in your plate.
    I'll put it dis way..."Come on my plate and I'll BITE Ya!"

    Auntie Lynn
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

  2. #127
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Uh oh...looks the the Gov. is preparing her unified command on Kaua'i to go beyond mano a mano with the protestors on Kaua'i. Ian Lind's blog posted this very interesting little requisition from the DOT Harbors Div. for all kinds of riot gear. The req was dated 9-18-2007 and was for "helmets, face shields, body shields, protective body equipment, protective gas mask, etc."

    Combine this with pictures of a lot of CG zodiacs being hidden behind a bunch of cargo containers at Nawiliwili Harbor and it sounds more like the Gov. is planning for a riot like the one that disrupted Seattle during the WTC meeting a few years ago. Miulang
    How likely is it that Lingle's Unified Command, and those whose interest$ the Lingle Command is reinforcing, would prepare for "a riot" then be content not to have provoked one, if not initiate one?

  3. #128

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    How likely is it that Lingle's Unified Command, and those whose interest$ the Lingle Command is reinforcing, would prepare for "a riot" then be content not to have provoked one, if not initiate one?
    Then I think there would have been a bloodbath similar to the one in Seattle in 1997 and more than a few "martyrs" for the cause.

    Now if the Legislature overturns the court rulings, even the Maui groups are saying there's no guarantee that the next arrival of HSF in Kahului will be as peaceful as the first one was. Maybe the Gov. needs another req for more riot gear to send to Maui, too.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  4. #129
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    Try to put yourself in our place. Sure we're at the same table: while you're sitting at the table salivating with anticipation of a hearty meal, we're in your plate.
    based on what we experienced, not only while we were on our trip, but in speaking to others currently on and formerly from the neighbor islands, the "we" whom you describe does not encompass anywhere near as many folks as you would like.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  5. #130
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Wonnaful. But we still don't make YB stop shipping when we're doing an ES. We still don't stop planes from flying when we do an ES on the parking structure.

    Hey, those planes will be able to carry more passengers on more flights if we have more parking. They fly directly over Ke'ehi Lagoon, home to Hawaiian water birds. There could be an impact there if we keep flying. Why not shut the airline down while we study the problem?

    Not equal treatment. Not fair. Not pono.



    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Blaine: YB and the airport have both had EA/EIS done for some projects and not for others. This has already been shown in news stories. Both YB and the county airports were in service well before 1973 when the first HEPA laws were enacted. Since 1973, both entities have had EAs done on some improvements and not on others. The ones that didn't get the EAs were exempted by the DOT through their set of exemptions (each department of the State has a list of exemptions they can use). DOT tried to sneak HSF through using the same exemption, but the HSC said that that judgment was faulty because the DOT did not take into account what the potential secondary impacts of a minor modification to Kahului Harbor would be.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  6. #131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post
    Wonnaful. But we still don't make YB stop shipping when we're doing an ES. We still don't stop planes from flying when we do an ES on the parking structure.

    Hey, those planes will be able to carry more passengers on more flights if we have more parking. They fly directly over Ke'ehi Lagoon, home to Hawaiian water birds. There could be an impact there if we keep flying. Why not shut the airline down while we study the problem?

    Not equal treatment. Not fair. Not pono.
    There is a difference in the function of YB and HSF. YB is a lifeline for the Neighbor Islands; HSF is convenience. That's the difference.

    Miulang

    Apparently not only did the DOT misinterpret the spirit of HRS343, but they have also violated an Shoreline Management permitting rule, too:

    The State DOT- Harbors Division (DOT –H) apparently exempted the Superferry facility from the SMA permitting process, though the law gives them only final “approval” powers, not exclusion from Federal, State and county law.

    Via email, Mike Formby, Deputy Director of the DOT-H Friday staked out the State’s right to ”plan, construct, operate, and maintain any commercial harbor facility... without the approval of county agencies” as stated in HRS 266-2(b)

    No mention is made in the law regarding exemption from permitting processes

    Formby also detailed the scheme under which the State undertook development of the Superferry Harbor Facilities, HRS 266-2(b) notwithstanding

    “Under the Operating Agreement with HSF, DOT was unable to provide existing passenger facilities to HSF in the neighbor islands and allowed HSF to construct such facilities which were, by contract, subject to sharing agreements with other users since the facilities were public purpose facilities on non-exclusive use state piers.” Formby wrote. “While the Operating Agreement required HSF to comply with all laws, HSF proceeded with the construction, operation and maintenance of the facilities on state piers on behalf of DOT under HRS 266-2(b), meaning they would not require approval of county agencies.”

    The law cited does not allow the state to pre-empt the SMA permitting process and only grants approval authority to the state, not authority over the permitting process. It does not exclude or exempt harbor projects from filing for and obtaining the federally mandated Shoreline Management Area (SMA) permit for the development of the Superferry facility in Nawiliwili Harbor and three other harbors in the state.


    To forgo the SMA process entirely- which always includes public hearings and sometimes if obviated things like traffic studies and even environmental cultural and social impact studies- violates provisions of the Federal Coastal Zone Management Act (CZMA) which mandates the state-directed but county-processed SMA permitting processes described in Hawaii’s SMA law (HRS205) and the CZMA.
    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  7. #132
    craig foo Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ericncyn View Post
    based on what we experienced, not only while we were on our trip, but in speaking to others currently on and formerly from the neighbor islands, the "we" whom you describe does not encompass anywhere near as many folks as you would like.
    I don't know who you associate with on your trips. I am not just visiting where I am at, and certainly feel no compulsion to dissuade you of your vacations' perceptions..

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    There is a difference in the function of YB and HSF. YB is a lifeline for the Neighbor Islands; HSF is convenience. That's the difference.
    Miulang
    The Concord was touted for it's convenience but it wasn't allowed just wherever it chose.

  8. #133
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    There is a difference in the function of YB and HSF. YB is a lifeline for the Neighbor Islands; HSF is convenience. That's the difference.

    Miulang
    Oh yeah... forgot about Hawaiian and Aloha airlines, huh?
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  9. #134

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post
    Oh yeah... forgot about Hawaiian and Aloha airlines, huh?
    They are a different beast, because they carry both people and cargo (like the US Mail). They are more similar to HSF in their purpose, but the issue isn't about airplanes, is it? And airplanes don't use the facilities at Kahului or Nawiliwili Harbor, either.

    If you want to talk cruise ships, Matson, YB and HSF using the same "medium" (i.e., water, as opposed to air, and competing for scarce space in the harbor), then the cruise ships and HSF are conveniences, but YB and Matson are lifelines for the Neighbor Islands. If Hawai'i wasn't hampered by the Jones Act and if the Neighbor Island harbors had been upgraded to allow for more direct shipment of goods, then cargo could bypass Honolulu completely; Honolulu is the disbursement point for critical goods that are shipped to the Neighbor Islands. The Neighbor Islands ship Honolulu fresh food in return.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 10th, 2007 at 09:35 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  10. #135
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
    I don't know who you associate with on your trips. I am not just visiting where I am at, and certainly feel no compulsion to dissuade you of your vacations' perceptions..

    whether on vacation or not, the people we know (some of whom count as relatives) who live on or are formerly from the neighbor islands (and there are many) are salt-of-the-earth, hard-working, republican, democrat, and independent; some serve or have served our country in the armed forces but all are lifetime if not generational hawaii residents who are law abiding, not inclined to sell, buy, or do drugs, steal copper, rape and pillage or otherwise lay waste to natural resources, are respectful and kind, would never dream of assaulting their neighbors or their neighbors' property, condemn anyone who would pound on a car, screaming expletives, when its inhabitants are peaceful and include children, love hawaii for all its beauties and its faults, and welcome the chance to make intra-island travel easier for a number of reasons, including, but not limited to, the fact that such travel would bring families spread out all over the state closer together in the same physical space more often.

    you need not reply as to with what kind of people you associate.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  11. #136
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Disagree. Neither do YB ships use airports in their commerce.

    But YB and the airlines are both transportation systems between islands that require massive infrastructure owned, improved and operated by the state just in order to exist. They pay rent and fees, of course, for use of those facilities. And those facilities get upgraded and expanded from time to time.

    Just like SuperFerry.

    SuperFerry is just another inter-island transport service. It is no different than the others described. It is paying "rent" for the facilities that the state improved to accommodate it. In fact, they intended to pay it all back! It was only a LOAN! What a concept! WE GET TO KEEP THE FACILITIES AFTER THEY'RE PAID FOR BY THE SUPERFERRY!

    But HSF is being held to a higher standard than any of the others who hold entrenched positions in local transport. The only difference is that Hawaii SuperFerry is not yet "entrenched."


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    They are a different beast, because they carry both people and cargo (like the US Mail). They are more similar to HSF in their purpose, but the issue isn't about airplanes, is it? And airplanes don't use the facilities at Kahului or Nawiliwili Harbor, either.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  12. #137
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Superferry President and Chief Executive Officer John Garibaldi said: "Obviously, we are disappointed. While the ruling is a loss for Hawaii Superferry and our employees, it is a greater loss for the state of Hawaii."

    Apparently, the superferries' investors can take some comfort in the fact that Judge Cardoza's ruling hurts them less than the hurt Garibaldi alleges has been done to the manipulated state and the superferries' dooped employees. Somewhere down the garibaldi chain of hurt must come the military, but whether more, less or tied with hurt done to the superferries' private investors remains to be revealed by Mr. Garibaldi.

  13. #138
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    those of us who had signed up at hawaiisuperferry.com for updates on fares, etc. got an email from the company earlier today:

    Mahalo for all the outstanding support we have received, especially over the last several weeks. While we are deeply disappointed in the Maui circuit court’s decision, we are also heartened by the vast outpouring of support among residents and businesses throughout the state who have asked to help.

    Your voice is urgently needed. Without swift action by the Hawai‘i State Legislature, Hawaii Superferry has no choice but to leave the state.

    We urge you to call and email your legislator immediately to let them know of your support.
    it provides handy dandy links to contact our reps and senators as well as a sample email:

    Sample Email:

    Subject: Please support Hawaii Superferry

    Dear Legislator:

    I support a special session of the Hawaii State Legislature to identify a solution that would enable Hawaii Superferry to continue operation while the environmental assessment is being conducted.

    The people of Hawaii want interisland transportation choices. Hawaii Superferry is a transportation alternative that is wanted and needed by residents and businesses of Hawaii and will bring many benefits to our state.

    Prompt action is needed to save this transportation option and protect Hawaii’s business climate.

    Mahalo,
    they also ask us to forward their email to any friends or family we know who are supportive of the ferry.

    i wonder how quickly it will be til someone whines and complains that such emails are in bad taste, illegal, or unethical use of customer information, blahblahblahwonkwonkwonkcrycrycry....
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  14. #139

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    A Star-Bulletin survey mentioned earlier in this thread has an error rate of +/-8% when it comes to individual islands, so it could be interpreted either way: a majority of Kauaians support HSF, a majority of Kauaians oppose HSF. I think the only absolute is that a majority of Oahuans support HSF.
    Last edited by popoki; October 11th, 2007 at 01:58 AM.

  15. #140
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    Unhappy Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
    We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

    Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.
    I’ve just about had it with your ignorant ranting, kamu. You want to keep turning each thread into the same broken record you’ve been singing ’til your face turns blue, go right ahead. Ever wonder how John Waihee III came to power with a budget surplus and left incoming Gov. Ben Cayetano with the largest black hole of a deficit in state history? Because he was a typical Hawaiian. He hooked up all his friends. That’s right, you heard me say it. Plantation Asians, my @ss. Native Hawaiians have been running their society this way since before Captain Cook. Who do you think those Plantation Asians learned it from? You think kanaka maoli conducted society based on merit instead of ‘ohana bloodline? Nā ali‘i would slap yo head for such a kūpule suggestion.

    Duh, kamu. You da one who should be shame twisting the facts into this manure.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

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  16. #141

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by zztype View Post
    Disagree. Neither do YB ships use airports in their commerce.

    But YB and the airlines are both transportation systems between islands that require massive infrastructure owned, improved and operated by the state just in order to exist. They pay rent and fees, of course, for use of those facilities. And those facilities get upgraded and expanded from time to time.

    Just like SuperFerry.

    SuperFerry is just another inter-island transport service. It is no different than the others described. It is paying "rent" for the facilities that the state improved to accommodate it. In fact, they intended to pay it all back! It was only a LOAN! What a concept! WE GET TO KEEP THE FACILITIES AFTER THEY'RE PAID FOR BY THE SUPERFERRY!

    But HSF is being held to a higher standard than any of the others who hold entrenched positions in local transport. The only difference is that Hawaii SuperFerry is not yet "entrenched."
    We can debate this technicality until we're blue in the face, Blaine. The bottom line is, hardly anyone (except maybe you and a few others) believes that HSF should not be subjected to an EA. The issue is the timing of the EA at this point: whether HSF should be allowed to operate while it is being done is the question, not that it should not be done.

    Some people think it's OK to let HSF run without a proactive EA and have the mitigations take care of any problems that arise at that time, while others believe that HSF should not be allowed to run without the proactive EA because if problems do arise, the mitigations will not be able to solve the problem or it would cost more to solve the problem later on. The Special Session would be deciding this issue, not that the HSF shouldn't be subject to an EA. Even HSF agrees that an EA should be done, but they want to be able to start operations before it is completed.

    An EA is not an EIS. An EA (as required by HRS 343) determines whether an EIS should be done. The State has now commissioned Belt Collins to do a $1 million dollar EA on all the commercial harbors in Hawai'i. Here are the official definitions for an EA/EIS from the OEQC if you want to wade through it yourself. If, after an EA is completed and a FONSI is issued by the department (in this case, the DOT) reviewing the EA, then an EIS is not required. HSF was exempted from an EA by a Class 6, sec. 8 exemption on the DOT's list of exemptions filed with the OEQC. The HSC determined that the exemption was inappropriate because even though the modifications to Kahului and Nawiliwili were considered inconsequential (to the tune of about$14 million per harbor for the barges, tents, Porta Potties, security fencing, paving and striping of roads), the DOT neglected to take into consideration the secondary threats to the environment, like invasive species and humpback whale strikes. The DOT blew it, because if HSF had done the EA at the very beginning (like 2 years ago, when it started encountering problems with Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club), the DOT could have at that time issued a FONSI and everything would have been peachy keen. Now, with the EA on the horizon, there's a good possibility that an EIS will be generated because of all the testimony that came out during the Maui hearings about invasive species and humpback whale strikes.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 11th, 2007 at 06:39 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  17. #142
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    I just recieved and email alert from aloha airlines that they are starting several new flights from the mainland to maui and kauai. I wonder what kinda review process adding more flight requires.... those flights will certainly have some impact.....lets see if it gets protested... i doubt it.

  18. #143
    craig foo Guest

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Updated at 6:53 a.m., Thursday, October 11, 2007
    Superferry special-session opponents meet on Big Isle
    Advertiser Staff
    A "No Special Legislative Session for Superferry" event is planned on the Big Island at 3 p.m. today at Gov. Linda Lingle's liaison office at the Hilo State building, 75 Aupuni St.

    Concerned citizens opposing the special session will deliver letters for the governor.
    "What a disturbing precedent — changing state law to bail out a business that gambled with our tax dollars and lost,"

    spokesperson Cory Harden said in a news release to local media. "A launch before environmental studies is putting the cart before the horse."

  19. #144
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by escondido100 View Post
    I just recieved and email alert from aloha airlines that they are starting several new flights from the mainland to maui and kauai. I wonder what kinda review process adding more flight requires.... those flights will certainly have some impact.....lets see if it gets protested... i doubt it.
    These flights allow people the ability to get to their outer Island destinations without having to stopover in Honolulu; I don't think it creates a new market for travelers. Furthermore, these Airlines aren't carrying vehicles.

  20. #145
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    We can debate this technicality until we're blue in the face, Blaine. The bottom line is, hardly anyone (except maybe you and a few others) believes that HSF should not be subjected to an EA. The issue is the timing of the EA at this point: whether HSF should be allowed to operate while it is being done is the question, not that it should not be done.

    Miulang
    What da hell you talking about??? "Hardly anyone"? Holy crap.

    You seem to have lost track of our conversation here.

    I believe a couple of posts back, if you followed the argument, I said that if harbor improvements were made on YB's behalf, that we ought to stop them from sailing while we studied the impact of those improvements, just as we seem to be requiring the SF to stop sailing while we study.

    Similarly, I advocate stopping the airlines from flying whenever we do improvements to the airports, while we study the possible impacts from every conceivable angle. (Let me get out my proctoscope, here.)

    I am in favor of applying the law equally to all transportation systems.

    If that cannot be done, or the effect is not desirable, then the law should be changed to remove discriminatory language--make it "agnostic," if you will.

    I don't believe I posted anywhere on whether an ES should or should not be done. My whole argument is that if you're going to require one to do it, then the deal should be applied equally, to all.

    Yes, I am in favor of the HSF sailing.

    As far as an ES, if that will really make you happy, go ahead and do one. I don't mind at all. But don't expect the planet to stop spinning while you study. Some of us have other stuff to do.

    As far as comparing airports and harbors, the idea is that they are both transportation hubs. Airlines and shippers are transporters, both of people and goods. Both of these industries use our transportation hubs and benefit from money spent by the state to improve their facilities.

    Any law applied to one should be equally applied to the others.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

  21. #146
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    To be fair, while I don't think it's "almost everyone," a lot of pro-HSF people here HAVE said they are in favor of an EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?), including me. I think a LOT of people messed this thing up, including the state and HSF.

    I want it to run. I think some kind of compromise should be met. But I also agree with Blaine: The law should apply equally to everyone.
    But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
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  22. #147

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    To be fair, while I don't think it's "almost everyone," a lot of pro-HSF people here HAVE said they are in favor of an EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?), including me. I think a LOT of people messed this thing up, including the state and HSF.

    I want it to run. I think some kind of compromise should be met. But I also agree with Blaine: The law should apply equally to everyone.
    I agree with both you and Blaine. The issue, however, is that you cannot stop YB from sailing while an EA is done on its impacts because it already exists and is a lifeline for the Neighbor Islands.To do so would starve the Neighbor Islands, and I'm sure neither of you would want to do that to the people of Kaua'i, Maui, Moloka'i, Lanai or the Big Island. As the DOT is planning to do an EA on the cruise industry and its impacts on Hawai'i next year, I do hope that they scrutinize some of the practices of YB and Matson, because there is no doubt that they helped spread invasive species during their time in service. Stopping air service while conducting an EA on the State's airports is just as nonsensical; most of the tourists (and money) arrive by plane, and to stop the planes would be like cutting off one's nose to spite his face. HSF has not yet started service so it has not had time yet to become "entrenched".

    One thing for sure, having sat in on some of the hearings on Akaku and listening to some of the State folks talk about their practices (or not), I think the DLNR and the DoA have some housecleaning to do, too.

    If the Legislature wants to "correct" or "refine" current Legislation, that's fine. That's their prerogative. But as you may have noted from the Advertiser story this morning, the Legislature has enough votes to go along with the Gov. to call the Special Session, but they also want HER to be the one to call it. They know it's mainly her Administration's fault that this debacle occurred, and they want her to own up to it.

    She and the Legislature need to understand, though, that if it looks like the Special Session is being called for the sole purpose of "bailing out" HSF, the demonstrations she saw in Nawiliwili Harbor will not only grow, but expand to Maui and possibly the Big Island. On the Senate side, that wouldn't be the case because there are some key departmental appointments that have to be approved (including the permanent director of DLNR), but for the House, its primary reason for meeting would be to discuss closing loopholes in HRS 343. The whole notion of using a Special Session just to help out one private company boggles my mind; and to think, this all could have been prevented if the House could have voted on the same measure which the Senate had passed, which was to let HSF sail while an EA was being done.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; October 11th, 2007 at 10:51 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  23. #148

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Stopping air service while conducting an EA on the State's airports is just as nonsensical; most of the tourists (and money) arrive by plane, and to stop the planes would be like cutting off one's nose to spite his face. HSF has not yet started service so it has not had time yet to become "entrenched".
    Why would it be nonsensical if protesters are so insistent they are protecting the aina? Afterall, tourists are bringing in even more foreign substances than what intra-island would. To say just because HSF has not started service so tough luck shows the lack of consideration, they spent a great deal of money to get the boat built based on this state's word. They already have started service when it comes to business and op cost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    They know it's mainly her Administration's fault that this debacle occurred, and they want her to own up to it.
    Why is it her administration's fault? Again, 343 gave them the power to exempt. And in 05, Cardoza agreed as well. Politicians are just being politicians, cowards who don't want to stick their necks out. If this special session blows up, they just want a way out by solely point fingers at Lingle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    The whole notion of using a Special Session just to help out one private company boggles my mind; and to think, this all could have been prevented if the House could have voted on the same measure which the Senate had passed, which was to let HSF sail while an EA was being done.
    Why is it boggling? 343 is the heart of the problem. None of this would have been possible without the loopholes created by 343. And I realized something, a lot of anti-ferry folks say, "see, if HSF just simply had done their EA two years ago, none of this would happen." Does this mean they already know the EA would amount to an assessment of no significant impact by the HSF? If that is the case, why insist on one then? If not, then why can't anti-ferry folks understand of course HSF would have tried to avoid an EA if legally possible. Would you spend that kind of money starting up a business knowing two years down the road, a paper report can effectively shut you down? So HSF avoiding an EA is nothing evil, it's just common sense.

  24. #149

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Why is it boggling? 343 is the heart of the problem. None of this would have been possible without the loopholes created by 343. And I realized something, a lot of anti-ferry folks say, "see, if HSF just simply had done their EA two years ago, none of this would happen." Does this mean they already know the EA would amount to an assessment of no significant impact by the HSF? If that is the case, why insist on one then? If not, then why can't anti-ferry folks understand of course HSF would have tried to avoid an EA if legally possible. Would you spend that kind of money starting up a business knowing two years down the road, a paper report can effectively shut you down? So HSF avoiding an EA is nothing evil, it's just common sense.
    Maybe I'm an exception, but if I was planning on plunking down $300 million to start a business, I would not want to cut corners, even if the people who have the authority to enforce rules said that I would be exempted from certain rules. In this case, do you really think Lehman et al were blissfully unaware of the fact that every single state in the Union requires new projects like this (especially if asking for federal funding) undergo some sort of environmental assessment? I mean, if they developed the whale avoidance policy, then they knew there some hoops they had to jump through. They knew in 2005 when the Maui enviros filed their appeal that they might end up being liable for an EA.

    Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but I like to think I would run an ethical company that went over and above trying to meet or exceed regulatory expectations so no one could come back later and tell me I had forgotten to do something and haul my okole into court. That's just me, though. Saving $1 million to do an EA which results in more than $1 million being spent on lawyers' fees and lost revenue due to being in court doesn't sound prudent to me.

    IF HRS 343 had been enforced fairly and across the board, as Blaine and Scriv suggest, then HSF would have just sighed and complied with the EA. The DOT, which has final review authority could have just rubber stamped it with a "FONSI". Then all pau, no complaints from anybody. Now that all the stuff about the whales and invasive species got brought up by witnesses at the Maui trial, I think that will almost guarantee that the EA that's being done will trigger an EIS. Lots of what Judge Cardoza allowed to be said wasn't really germane, but it's in the record now, so it could be used as evidence to support not issuing a FONSI for HSF in the long run.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  25. #150

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?)
    Here's how the Feds describe it (as summarized from the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) of 1969); many states have their own, similar mini-NEPAs.

    Whenever the government is involved in any "major action that significantly affect(s) the quality of the human environment," an EIS is required by law. If a major action will not have a significant impact on the environment, the agency must prepare the shorter EA.

    In Hawai`i, H.B. 702 provides for amending Section 343, Hawaii Revised Statutes, in several places. The bill "requires an environmental assessment for harbor improvements using public moneys; clarifies that traffic congestion is to be considered in an environmental impact statement process; requires the preparation of an environmental impact statement for the Hawaii superferry project; requires work to cease on Hawaii superferry until an environmental impact statement is accepted; makes appropriation to department of transportation to prepare an environmental impact statement."

    Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the State Legislature can offer additional clarification on this bill, its status and ramifications?

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