Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

[Bob P]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

If you're talking about the emotional abuse of the poor girl who killed herself, I'm not sure how that works. Who is the complainant? Can a family sue someone for the emotional abuse of someone else? Mental anguish makes more sense. The surviving family can say, "The actions of the offending family wrongfully caused us mental anguish." I can see that happening and possibly winning.

But tikiyaki, I just don't see how it should be illegal for someone to tease someone else, even if that teasing causes mental anguish. Sure, it's wrong, but should the guilty pay for it?

The estate of the girl can (and should IMO) sue for mental anguish and wrongful death in civil court. This is seperate from a criminal action with a lower standard of proof (preponderance of evidence vs reasonable doubt).

The damages suffered while she was alive (mental anguish) don't go away because she's now dead, they transfer to her estate.

[scrivener]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

The estate of the girl can (and should IMO) sue for mental anguish and wrongful death in civil court. This is separate from a criminal action with a lower standard of proof (preponderance of evidence vs reasonable doubt).

The damages suffered while she was alive (mental anguish) don't go away because she's now dead, they transfer to her estate.

Yeah. That's what I said. What I couldn't get was the "emotional abuse" part of the original suggestion.

[Bob P]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

Yeah. That's what I said. What I couldn't get was the "emotional abuse" part of the original suggestion.

Gotcha.

The family CAN (in some jurisdictions) sue directly for Loss of Consortium of the child. Not all recognize it for parents for loss of a child (most if not all recognize it the other way - child for death of a parent). If the parent discovered the body or witnessed the suicide they can (again, in some jurisdictions) sue for emotional distress caused by witnessing the death of a loved one.

[Adri]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326472,00.html

According to the article, there's a legislative effort to make it a federal felony for an adult to harass a child. There's still a question of jurisdiction over the internet. In the Meyer case, the adult and the child were living on the same street but I wonder what happens if one or the other is living in a different state or country.

[scrivener]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

It is a well-intentioned law, but I wonder how they're going to word this thing. The stuff I've seen high-school coaches say and do to athletes would almost surely cross the line. And I wonder which part of the grownups' behavior in this episode would be the law-breaking part: The pretending to be a young boy, the rejection at the end, or the entire ugly thing? And what if you're online and you get into an all-out flame war with someone you don't know is under eighteen? Why do I get the feeling this stuff has not been well-thought-out?

[salmoned]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

It is a well-intentioned law,...

'The road to hell is paved with good-intentions' - I assume you were referring to that concept with your first phrase and I agree. No amount of good intention can rectify the wrong this sort of legislation would exemplify, regardless of how it might be worded.

[Adri]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24652422

So this hasn't gone away. Lori Drew of suburban St. Louis was indicted on one count of conspiracy and three counts of accessing protected computers without authorization to obtain information to inflict emotional distress.

[Lei Liko]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24652422

So this hasn't gone away. Lori Drew of suburban St. Louis was indicted on one count of conspiracy and three counts of accessing protected computers without authorization to obtain information to inflict emotional distress.

I was relieved to read that.

Some may disagree with me, but a grown woman who used the internet to bully a teenage girl should not be allowed to get away scot-free.

[salmoned]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

Just goes to show, even a Federal Grand Jury can be bullied by prosecutorial misconduct. I hope no one is moved to commit suicide because of anything I've ever said or typed online - for fear of my being accused of conspiracy or illegally accessing a computer. Obviously, my name isn't salmoned...

[TuNnL]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

But tikiyaki, I just don't see how it should be illegal for someone to tease someone else, even if that teasing causes mental anguish. Sure, it's wrong, but should the guilty pay for it?

To follow up on tikiyaki’s comparison - at least three men have been successfully prosecuted under Hawai‘i’s “Electronic Enticement” law. All three never had any contact — physical, verbal, or via the internet — with an actual child. The “victims” in these cases were police detectives posing as underage teens.

The point is, if we are going to put “cyber criminals” behind bars for victimless “virtual crimes,” it stands to reason that we should at least look into prosecuting cases where there is a real victim who is now dead.

[scrivener]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

As always, you make a good point. But keep in mind that the dead child was never forced to do what she did; you have to separate the unfortunate suicide from the action that inspired it, something salmoned articulated better than I could.

I totally understand not wanting the culprit to get off "scot-free," but I don't think this equates well to electronic enticement. While there is no victim in the electronic enticement situations, the state is saying that it is illegal to TRY to entice a child in this manner, which I agree makes total sense. Whether there is a child or not, if you thought someone was a child and you tried to lure him or her into these things, you attempted to harm a child, physically, and that's good enough for me. Or bad enough for me, I guess.

My issue is that yes, there's a real child involved here, but what did this woman do other than tease her mercilessly? Is the teasing, all by itself, worthy of punishment?

[cynsaligia]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

My issue is that yes, there's a real child involved here, but what did this woman do other than tease her mercilessly? Is the teasing, all by itself, worthy of punishment?

besides "just teasing," albeit mercilessly, drew committed fraud by presenting herself as other than she was. secondly, she committed (written) child abuse that was so devastating that the child killed herself as a result. to make things worse, drew did these things to a child, whom, if i understood correctly, was known to have depression.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

There are two separate issues being mixed together here. "Was the woman's behavior cruel?" and "Should it be illegal?".

I think we all know what the woman did was very cruel. There's nothing more insidious than pretending to be someone's friend, allowing them to drop their guard so you can see their weak spots, and then stab them where it hurts.

But should it be illegal? To be illegal there must be laws made which give the government more power over people. To decided whether losing more freedom is worth it, we need to be very confident about what, if any, benefits are to be had. If we cant say for certain, then perhaps we should wait a bit before demanding laws be made. Though it has its problem, vigilantism can serve a useful social purpose. It can do things that our government is unable to do or we don't want it to do.

If we made it illegal, how does the government determine what constitutes a criminal act? How easy would it be for someone to be found guilty, whose only crime was being an ignorant jerk? Can a person intent on destroying another person easily dodge the law? A law with fuzzy definitions is not only useless, but also dangerous.

Often when we say we want something to be illegal, what we want is to see someone punished without any risk to ourselves.

[scrivener]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

besides "just teasing," albeit mercilessly, drew committed fraud by presenting herself as other than she was.

Is there a law against this? If there is, how far does it extend?

secondly, she committed (written) child abuse that was so devastating that the child killed herself as a result. to make things worse, drew did these things to a child, whom, if i understood correctly, was known to have depression.

Reprehensible, as I've already written, but what makes something (written) child abuse? And if the child was known to suffer from depression, does that make the teasing worse than if it had been aimed at any other child?

[Nords]

Re: Myspace Hoax Victim Kills Herself

My issue is that yes, there's a real child involved here, but what did this woman do other than tease her mercilessly? Is the teasing, all by itself, worthy of punishment?

You've probably already polled them, but what do your students think?

Would they change their answer(s) if you used the word "bullying" instead of "tease her mercilessly"? There's not much of a semantic difference (if any) but there might be a different emotional response...

It'd be interesting to see what coverage this case gets in school's student newspapers across the nation. Or on MySpace.