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  • #16
    Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

    Originally posted by Peshkwe View Post
    I was gonna stay out of this 'cause I know zip about the Hawaiian language other than what I've picked up from phone conversations and reading (and typesetting stuff), but the bit I highlighted in your statement got the better of me.

    Couple of questions....

    1) Why?

    2) Any Hawaiian tell ya to not speak the language?
    That's the thing. No Hawaiian has ever said anything about it or indicated in some way that I'd put my foot in it. My friend is sensitive to cultural issues, as I try to be. She thinks it is presumptuous to use it as a greeting because it means so much more and because I'm haole. Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians have greeted me with "aloha" instead of "hello" since the day I came here, as is the local custom. My intent, when I use it in the same manner, is to convey a warm greeting.

    I know that it's also a very Hawaiian thing not to shame someone when they make a mistake, but I'd rather know and not continue to offend if that's what I'm doing.
    Bloggin my way to the big time

    http://skeetsstuff.skeeterbess.com/

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    • #17
      Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

      Skeeter, you gotta play it as it comes.

      About mahalo:

      If someone mahalo me, I usually respond "'o ia" (which can sound like "oh yeah") with a nod and smile. Responses such as "ʻaʻole pilikia" are best when the gratitude extended is from saving that person from an embarrassment or offense; it makes light of the situation. "He mea ʻole" (as in, no big deal) is the most casual, but isn't always appropriate, because if the mahalo IS a big deal, then these last two responses can be construed as insulting. Pay particular attention to using these responses around kūpuna--in other words, don't.

      When in doubt, respond to a mahalo with mahalo or aloha, a humble smile and eye contact. It suffices and is always appropriate.

      pax

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      • #18
        Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

        Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
        Skeeter, you gotta play it as it comes.

        About mahalo:

        If someone mahalo me, I usually respond "'o ia" (which can sound like "oh yeah") with a nod and smile. Responses such as "ʻaʻole pilikia" are best when the gratitude extended is from saving that person from an embarrassment or offense; it makes light of the situation. "He mea ʻole" (as in, no big deal) is the most casual, but isn't always appropriate, because if the mahalo IS a big deal, then these last two responses can be construed as insulting. Pay particular attention to using these responses around kūpuna--in other words, don't.

        When in doubt, respond to a mahalo with mahalo or aloha, a humble smile and eye contact. It suffices and is always appropriate.
        Mahalo. I've never used Hawaiian responses to mahalo because I knew there were different meanings for the different phrases but did not know what each means. My rule (for myself - I don't dictate to others) has been "if you don't know, don't fake it."
        Bloggin my way to the big time

        http://skeetsstuff.skeeterbess.com/

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        • #19
          Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

          Originally posted by skeeterbess View Post
          That's the thing. No Hawaiian has ever said anything about it or indicated in some way that I'd put my foot in it. My friend is sensitive to cultural issues, as I try to be. She thinks it is presumptuous to use it as a greeting because it means so much more and because I'm haole. Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians have greeted me with "aloha" instead of "hello" since the day I came here, as is the local custom. My intent, when I use it in the same manner, is to convey a warm greeting.

          I know that it's also a very Hawaiian thing not to shame someone when they make a mistake, but I'd rather know and not continue to offend if that's what I'm doing.

          Innerestink...

          If you really want to use the language without worrying about offense from misuse or mispronunciation, see about taking classes, getting a tutor, or at least listening to some language tapes and lots of music. Knowledge is always a plus in life.

          Just curious...but does your sensitive friend know any of the Hawaiian language herself? I mean other than the stuff a tourist or newbie can pick up here and there like 'aloha', 'mahalo' etc. Has she made an attempt to learn?

          Reason I ask is that I'm wondering which way the deep currents of her is fuss is flowing. Is it about you using the language 'cause you're haole = not from there, or haole = not Kanaka/brown skinned? If she's taken the time to learn the language and really TRULY understands the nuances, it's possible she's standing upright in her beliefs.

          If she doesn't know and doesn't want to learn properly....well....ya might want to look with the deeper eyes and hear with the deeper ears to what she says and does.

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          • #20
            Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

            I can't really understand skeeterbess's friend's sentiment... Aloha is a warmer way of saying hello, it's hello that comes with a smile. Here in Texas, when I want to greet someone, 'hello' will do, but if I want to make a stranger smile when I pass, 'howdy' should be employed.

            I wish I could take Hawaiian Language classes here... it makes me so sad not to! If I ever have a kid, i'm moving there right quick for immersion classes. I'm thankful for the common words my mom brought me up on, though. It does get a little bit confusing, as some of her loan words and phrases have... changed...

            When, growing up, someone said 'i don't like the corn' at dinner, ect, mom (and by then, the rest of the family) would shout "MUSHVIKA!"
            Mom insisted that it was Portguguese, and when I met my friend's Portuguese roomate, i just had to share. She looked at me like i'd used latin. I finally did some online digging last night and discovered 'Mais Fica!'
            She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!

            but at least I have my shaka and ahui hou straight!
            Last edited by shen; January 8, 2008, 06:44 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

              Originally posted by shen View Post
              She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!
              I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari," but with transliteration of Japanese (or any language that doesn't use the same alphabetic characters as English), there can be a multitude of variations.
              Originally posted by akrauth View Post
              Unknowingly, I've started blabbing in 'olelo
              This is the root of the problem, and why you are disappointed, `Alika. You are becoming more proficient in `olelo Hawai`i - and you expect others to match your skill level; you seem to think less of them for not doing so. Do not impose your expectations upon others so often, and you will not be as bothered by who they are and what they can do or not do.

              We should use language to bring people of different backgrounds together in communication, not to separate and isolate them. Assume that any language you are learning (including your first tongue) will take one year longer than your lifespan to fully master.
              Last edited by Leo Lakio; January 8, 2008, 06:40 AM.

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              • #22
                Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                Originally posted by shen View Post
                She uses other things from growing up, like bakatadi... I know what she says it means, but i dont know where she got it! 'baka' makes sense... but 'tadi??' i'm guessing it is another mispronounciation!
                Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari," but with transliteration of Japanese (or any language that doesn't use the same alphabetic characters as English), there can be a multitude of variations.
                You'll get better Google results if you spell it "bakatare".

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                  I am enjoying this post......but I have always lived my the rule of RESPECT what is there....if you don't know how to use it, then DON'T. I think it is more insulting to hear any language being used improperly just because you are trying to fit in...if you really want to fit in, just listen and answer in the language that you are most comfortable/sure of.....SIMPLE.....

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                  • #24
                    Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                    Originally posted by Peshkwe View Post
                    Innerestink...

                    If you really want to use the language without worrying about offense from misuse or mispronunciation, see about taking classes, getting a tutor, or at least listening to some language tapes and lots of music. Knowledge is always a plus in life.

                    Just curious...but does your sensitive friend know any of the Hawaiian language herself? I mean other than the stuff a tourist or newbie can pick up here and there like 'aloha', 'mahalo' etc. Has she made an attempt to learn?

                    Reason I ask is that I'm wondering which way the deep currents of her is fuss is flowing. Is it about you using the language 'cause you're haole = not from there, or haole = not Kanaka/brown skinned? If she's taken the time to learn the language and really TRULY understands the nuances, it's possible she's standing upright in her beliefs.

                    If she doesn't know and doesn't want to learn properly....well....ya might want to look with the deeper eyes and hear with the deeper ears to what she says and does.
                    I took one class in Hawaiian a few years back. I don't seem to do well in learning languages. I was never able to learn French or music either, despite several years of classroom instruction in each - there's a missing cognitive link in my brain, I think. Words and phrases that flow around me in everyday conversation - yes; conversational use of a new language - not so much.

                    My friend has a better understanding of languages in general and the Hawaiian language in particular than I do. She has also had more exposure to Hawaiians and to Hawaiian culture in an academic setting, where mine has been a more casual exposure through friends and neighbors. She's very intelligent and very kind-hearted. I respect her opinions. We have frequent conversations about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior for us, as haoles living in Hawaii. These are not mere "academic" conversations. They come from our shared, heart-felt desire to repay the warm aloha with which we have been embraced, to return it in some measure. The respect we have for the people, the language and the culture compels us to want to do better, to be better neighbors, and one way I get better is by asking questions.
                    Bloggin my way to the big time

                    http://skeetsstuff.skeeterbess.com/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                      Originally posted by skeeterbess View Post
                      I took one class in Hawaiian a few years back. I don't seem to do well in learning languages. I was never able to learn French or music either, despite several years of classroom instruction in each - there's a missing cognitive link in my brain, I think. Words and phrases that flow around me in everyday conversation - yes; conversational use of a new language - not so much.
                      I can understand this. I could understand spoken German when I was living there but I could never make my mouth work the language well enough to carry on a conversation. Shoot I have problems speaking English and from what I've seen some German words can rival Hawaiian words in length.

                      My friend has a better understanding of languages in general and the Hawaiian language in particular than I do. She has also had more exposure to Hawaiians and to Hawaiian culture in an academic setting, where mine has been a more casual exposure through friends and neighbors. She's very intelligent and very kind-hearted. I respect her opinions. We have frequent conversations about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behavior for us, as haoles living in Hawaii. These are not mere "academic" conversations. They come from our shared, heart-felt desire to repay the warm aloha with which we have been embraced, to return it in some measure. The respect we have for the people, the language and the culture compels us to want to do better, to be better neighbors, and one way I get better is by asking questions.
                      So if you and she really feel the warmth and 'get' the meaning, why is it "presumptuous" to use the language of the land when the understanding and knowledge is there for using it in the proper context and not be rude about it? I mean you understand the little you do know well and are careful to not jump ahead of your skill set...where is the harm in a meeting of the minds socially?

                      Just from personal observations, folks generally appreciate it when you can speak a little of their home lingo if it's done in an honest effort to get it right (and they can tell if you're straight up with the effort or not).

                      It just strikes me as being more on the rude side than the honoring side of things when you know the language but refuse to speak it....makes the other person have to 'come meet you' instead of you going to meet them, or at least meeting in the middle someplace.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                        Originally posted by Peshkwe View Post
                        I can understand this. I could understand spoken German when I was living there but I could never make my mouth work the language well enough to carry on a conversation. Shoot I have problems speaking English and from what I've seen some German words can rival Hawaiian words in length.



                        So if you and she really feel the warmth and 'get' the meaning, why is it "presumptuous" to use the language of the land when the understanding and knowledge is there for using it in the proper context and not be rude about it? I mean you understand the little you do know well and are careful to not jump ahead of your skill set...where is the harm in a meeting of the minds socially?

                        Just from personal observations, folks generally appreciate it when you can speak a little of their home lingo if it's done in an honest effort to get it right (and they can tell if you're straight up with the effort or not).

                        It just strikes me as being more on the rude side than the honoring side of things when you know the language but refuse to speak it....makes the other person have to 'come meet you' instead of you going to meet them, or at least meeting in the middle someplace.
                        I have continued to use "aloha" as a greeting and continue to believe it's appropriate to do so, but with that small doubt still nesting in the back of my mind. Her thoughts on the matter originated with a conversation she had with a kupuna. This was concerning the layers and levels of meaning that are present in so many Hawaiian words and phrases. She concluded that it is wrong to ever use a word or phrase without understanding all of the possible definitions and nuances. I, having had different experiences and responses, believe in returning that particular word on the level that it's offered - as a warm greeting. That does not imply that I disregard deeper meanings, but rather that I use it in context.

                        Perhaps I should add that it comes out with a Southern drawl. I couldn't pretend to be something I'm not even if I wanted to - which I don't. I don't use those few words and phrases to pretend I'm Hawaiian or even "local," but more in a manner that reflects the thoughts of your final paragraph. When in Rome - honor the culture and custom. When in Hawaii ...
                        Bloggin my way to the big time

                        http://skeetsstuff.skeeterbess.com/

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                        • #27
                          Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                          I think a more accurate representation in English might be "baka tari,"
                          Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
                          You'll get better Google results if you spell it "bakatare".
                          Oop - and I knew that, too (the AF says it regularly - though not aimed towards me ). Thanks for the correction, Glen.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                            Originally posted by skeeterbess View Post
                            I have continued to use "aloha" as a greeting and continue to believe it's appropriate to do so, but with that small doubt still nesting in the back of my mind. Her thoughts on the matter originated with a conversation she had with a kupuna. This was concerning the layers and levels of meaning that are present in so many Hawaiian words and phrases. She concluded that it is wrong to ever use a word or phrase without understanding all of the possible definitions and nuances. I, having had different experiences and responses, believe in returning that particular word on the level that it's offered - as a warm greeting. That does not imply that I disregard deeper meanings, but rather that I use it in context.

                            Perhaps I should add that it comes out with a Southern drawl. I couldn't pretend to be something I'm not even if I wanted to - which I don't. I don't use those few words and phrases to pretend I'm Hawaiian or even "local," but more in a manner that reflects the thoughts of your final paragraph. When in Rome - honor the culture and custom. When in Hawaii ...


                            Yanno....unless you speak something day-in-day-out you aren't gonna catch all the nuances and meanings of any language that you haven't spoken in since birth. Shoot.... even word imagery or double entendres in english spoken by 'english from birth' speakers aren't caught or understood if the vocabulary isn't there. Going by your friend's line of reasoning, they should stop speaking english 'cause they just don't get all the subtle meanings.

                            Reminds me of a couple things....one was a gig being described (I had asked what the audience was like and the reactions to them and the other peeps playing) where the audience was a mix of tourists (and tourons), locals/residents and Hawaiians. He said the Hawaiian song being sung, if you translated it was about water falls, flowers and little birdies. The tourists listened politely but cluelessly to the song and watched an older Aunty dance Hula to it, the residents sang along... but the Hawaiians were rolling on the floor busting a gut laughing 'cause it was really a funny/raunchy ribald type song.

                            The other one was with my dad who went by Dick. He was asked why didn't he change to Rich or go by his full name Richard instead of Dick for work (he was Chief of Probation for eastern Michigan). He always said it was 'cause he knew where someone was coming from as soon as they said his name no matter who they were, convict or congressman.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                              Originally posted by Peshkwe View Post
                              Yanno....unless you speak something day-in-day-out you aren't gonna catch all the nuances and meanings of any language that you haven't spoken in since birth. Shoot.... even word imagery or double entendres in english spoken by 'english from birth' speakers aren't caught or understood if the vocabulary isn't there. Going by your friend's line of reasoning, they should stop speaking english 'cause they just don't get all the subtle meanings.

                              Reminds me of a couple things....one was a gig being described (I had asked what the audience was like and the reactions to them and the other peeps playing) where the audience was a mix of tourists (and tourons), locals/residents and Hawaiians. He said the Hawaiian song being sung, if you translated it was about water falls, flowers and little birdies. The tourists listened politely but cluelessly to the song and watched an older Aunty dance Hula to it, the residents sang along... but the Hawaiians were rolling on the floor busting a gut laughing 'cause it was really a funny/raunchy ribald type song.

                              The other one was with my dad who went by Dick. He was asked why didn't he change to Rich or go by his full name Richard instead of Dick for work (he was Chief of Probation for eastern Michigan). He always said it was 'cause he knew where someone was coming from as soon as they said his name no matter who they were, convict or congressman.
                              You are blessed with the gift of being able to put things into their proper perspective. Mahalo for sharing it. Oh, and thanks for the giggles, too.
                              Bloggin my way to the big time

                              http://skeetsstuff.skeeterbess.com/

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                              • #30
                                Re: Saying Aloha in Hawai'i Nei

                                Thanks for the insight on 'bakatare.' I'd looked through many Japanese dictionaries for "tari" and "tadi" seperately, figuring those would be easy to mix up, but now that it's 'tare...' easy! It means no less or more than I expected... pretty much any derivitive of baka.

                                funny story about it... a while back, my mom asked a Japanese friend's mom, an oooold Japanese lady, what it meant. She had a mix of shock and cute old lady laughter, and said, "iss like a CRAZY CRAP DROPPER!"

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