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The Bystander Effect?

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  • #31
    Re: The Bystander Effect?

    Originally posted by Random View Post
    "Why" is the key question here. I want to know what his motive that drove him to such violence upon his ex.
    if by "motive," you mean you want to know what specific reason it was that he went after her the way she did, well, IIRC, it was reported that she had left him or was in the process of leaving him. that's widely regarded as the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship.

    but if you want a my answer as a survivor of domestic violence, it's pretty simple: there is no reason. motive is irrelevant.

    my ex used to hit me, literally, for no rational reason. if he felt that i answered a question with the wrong tone, he'd beat me. once, he felt that my not laughing at something we were watching on tv that he thought was funny was an insult to him, so he hit me. he hit me because i found evidence he was cheating on me. he hit me because i left a glass of water with ice in the refrigerator, which he felt made no sense and was obviously proof that i was cheating on him. he hit me because i let the gas go below half tank. he slammed my head into the car passenger window after we dropped off his younger, female cousin after a night at blue zebra because i let her go to the bathroom by herself. "that's my baby cousin, you bitch!" he swore. "you don't ever leave her alone!" nevermind the fact that he spent half the night on the other side of the club hanging out with his friends, and likely, flirting with other girls. he ground my face into the floor one time because i hadn't noticed my doc martens had tracked dirt into the entryway.

    he used to hit me with wine bottles from previous romantic night we'd had together. he catapulted me, face-first, into our very solid front door. bad enough that he did that, but you'll be disgusted to know that i had braces on my teeth at the time. i couldn't eat for a week. the force that he slammed me into the wall was so strong that the wire that ran through my braces completely came off the front brackets and the orthodontist had to remove it and put in a cpmpletely new wire. (my story was that i got hit with a volleyball. back then, i was good at lying to cover up my ex's sins.)

    once, he threw my pager at my face, bruising me just under my right eye and leaving a small dent in my cheekbone because my pager went off and he didn't believe it was my mom calling. the time he broke my ribs was because he was pissed that while i was giving him a manicure, i pushed too hard on his cuticles and it hurt. besides broken ribs, i cannot tell you how many times he choked me to the point i passed out and that his choking me would leave bruises around my neck that would last for weeks. he'd pick me up by the neck until i was several inches off the ground and slam my head into the wall repeatedly. he was smart enough to strike me where clothes or my long hair could easily cover the evidence. he liked to sit on my chest, using his legs to pin my arms under, and hit me repeatedly on my sternum. unfortunately, he could have easily caused my sternum to splinter and pierce my heart or lungs.

    abusers have a complete lack of impulse control when it comes to those they harm. abusers believe, in the moment they are hurting their loved one(s), that they have every right to do what they are doing. they have no sense of consequence or morality. of course, they often develop a sense of remorse or even "find god" when they go to jail for what they've done, but otherwise, they just don't give a rat's ass in hell. my ex, in calmer times, would tell me that when he was hitting me, all he could see was red. there was no right or wrong, there was only that he was angry and that i was the cause of it and i must be punished.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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    • #32
      Re: The Bystander Effect?

      Originally posted by Random View Post
      Considering that that a government is nothing without the collective consciousness of society, then it is society that failed Tupuola.[/font][/size] Maybe we as a society should push more to provide safe havens for abused and stalked spouses.
      Collectively, society did fail Tupuola. While those safe havens might be the manifestation of the solution, I believe the roots lie in self discovery.

      If you will know yourselves,
      then you will be known and
      you will know that you are the sons of the Living Father.
      But if you do not know yourselves,
      then you are in poverty and you are poverty.
      -Jesus, The Gospel According to Thomas
      The money and buildings will not cure, if the people who occupy them are unaware of the full spectrum of their being. We can be very selfish, ego driven, and manipulative. But we are also be part of the divine and can choose to be selfless, unconditional, and the embodiment of love. These tragic events are a reflection of the collective unconsciousness of society. The real "poverty" we live in.

      While I don't know Tunoa's life or him personally, it could be that he is a by product of this collective "poverty". Meaning that even myself if born into the same environment, with the same personality traits, would turn out the same. We also got to see a glimpse of baby Cyrus's life, growing up surrounded by people living in "poverty"

      These events should evoke self reflection. Not blame or judgement. Can govt., a President, or Leader make you know yourself? Self discovery is the work that every individual has to bear themselves, and I think the only real solution. If you look for a leader maker sure they are conscious. But if you are not, then how will you know? One George W. Bush is one too many.

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      • #33
        Re: The Bystander Effect?

        Originally posted by GnosticWarrior View Post
        While those safe havens might be the manifestation of the solution, I believe the roots lie in self discovery.

        The money and buildings will not cure, if the people who occupy them are unaware of the full spectrum of their being. We can be very selfish, ego driven, and manipulative. But we are also be part of the divine and can choose to be selfless, unconditional, and the embodiment of love. These tragic events are a reflection of the collective unconsciousness of society. The real "poverty" we live in.
        These are noble sentiments. Humans are complex creatures and all are different. Some have no desire for introspection - are they inferior for being such? I don't think so. Perhaps you would consider them less evolved in terms of certain religious philosophies. The vast majority of those who do not embrace "the divine" and do not seek deep personal introspection are decent people who live decent lives.

        Originally posted by GnosticWarrior View Post
        While I don't know Tunoa's life or him personally, it could be that he is a by product of this collective "poverty". Meaning that even myself if born into the same environment, with the same personality traits, would turn out the same.
        This is a blinding oversimplification. For every Tunoa, and the Tunoa's of the world are comparatively rare, there are thousands of others who grow up in similar societies and circumstances with similar traits who do not rob, murder and lead lives of chaos.

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        • #34
          Re: The Bystander Effect?

          Originally posted by GnosticWarrior View Post
          While I don't know Tunoa's life or him personally, it could be that he is a by product of this collective "poverty". Meaning that even myself if born into the same environment, with the same personality traits, would turn out the same. We also got to see a glimpse of baby Cyrus's life, growing up surrounded by people living in "poverty"

          These events should evoke self reflection. Not blame or judgement. Can govt., a President, or Leader make you know yourself? Self discovery is the work that every individual has to bear themselves, and I think the only real solution. If you look for a leader maker sure they are conscious. But if you are not, then how will you know?
          It is tragic that an event have to happen to evoke such a self-reflection.
          Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

          Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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          • #35
            Re: The Bystander Effect?

            Woooooo! I just got on this thread! K-den. Wat dis about Poverty creating...? Wait, I come back. I go read and den comment. If it is what I think it is...oh boy.

            Auntie Lynn
            Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
            Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

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            • #36
              Re: The Bystander Effect?

              glossyp said it well.

              Auntie Lynn
              Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
              Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The Bystander Effect?

                Cyn - I feel for you and what you went through but I'm glad that you were one of the lucky ones who made it out of that situation.
                Toku toa, he toa rangatira ~ He whakatauki
                My bravery is inherited from the chiefs who were my forebears ~ Maori whakatauki

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                • #38
                  Re: The Bystander Effect?

                  Originally posted by glossyp View Post
                  These are noble sentiments. Humans are complex creatures and all are different. Some have no desire for introspection - are they inferior for being such? I don't think so. Perhaps you would consider them less evolved in terms of certain religious philosophies. The vast majority of those who do not embrace "the divine" and do not seek deep personal introspection are decent people who live decent lives.

                  This is a blinding oversimplification. For every Tunoa, and the Tunoa's of the world are comparatively rare, there are thousands of others who grow up in similar societies and circumstances with similar traits who do not rob, murder and lead lives of chaos.
                  What you say is true. I did give generalizations and don't want to argue bcs there are too many variables to consider. Those who didn't turn out like Tunoa may have had a teacher, coach, or friend that some how helped them make better choices in their lives and develop into a better person.

                  The point I was trying to make is that a person who self reflects and understands himself, can then understand others better. You would then not view anyone as a monster or inferior. They're still divine beings its just that they have choosen to give up self control to some affliction (though they aren't aware of it). You would know bcs you are aware of how you have done it too. Wouldn't society be great if all teachers, coaches, co-workers, bosses, strangers would be able to relate to you on that level? They would better know how to gauge their interactions with you to help steer you on the right path.

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                  • #39
                    Re: The Bystander Effect?

                    Cyn~
                    I feel for all you've gone through. Like you, I am a survivor of domestic violence. I have been yelled at or hit at pretty much every shopping center/mall on Oahu. If I wasn't driving properly, he'd punch my head. If I made the wrong dinner, he'd slap me. If I asked the wrong question, he'd yell at me and throw the nearest object at my head. Like your ex, mine was adept at knowing where to hit so that the bruises were public. There is no reasoning...I'm not sure about your ex, but mine was bred to be mean. His father treated his mom (and my ex) that way and it wasn't until after 20 years of marriage that she left him. I'm glad I got out when I did. He was actually shocked when I turned down his marriage proposal (!). My only regret is that I never reported him to the police. I dread that one day, I'll see his face up on that TV screen as someone who beat his wife to death, and my reporting him would have somehow given her a warning.

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                    • #40
                      Re: The Bystander Effect?

                      thanks, kiwidiva & ipo. i, too, am very glad i got out alive. there's not a report of a woman being severely injured or killed by her abusive bf or spouse that doesn't make me think "that could have been me."

                      i don't think this will make you feel any better, ipo, but try not to feel so guilty. my ex went on to beat his next gf after me. it's so freaky that they moved not two blocks away from where i was living. anyway, i was nosy and looked up my ex's name one day in the court records and found out that he went to jail again. his new gf suffered in much the same way i did. it helped her none that he had been in jail for 150+ days for breaking my ribs and was still on year two of a five year probation. even with that record, he only went to jail five days for what he did to her! maybe she didn't have bones broken, but he did beat her terribly (he repeatedly slammed her head onto the kitchen counter, punched her, and kicked her). you would think that given his record AND the fact that he was already on probation for domestic abuse, he would have gotten more time.

                      my understanding is that he's now out of the country. i truly hope he's somehow learned his lesson, but i sincerely doubt it. woe to the woman who falls in love with him bcs it's likely that she has no way of finding out his past. i've thought about posting him on dontdatehimgirl.com in the hopes it might help...

                      in fact, i'll say his name right here: CHRIS BRIAN LEE. Waipahu High School Class of 1991. He works in the food & bev field, having once held jobs at L'Uraku, John Dominis & Duke's. don't let his happy-go-lucky, charming persona fool you. underneath it he's a cold, nasty, horrid snake of a person.
                      superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                      "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                      nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The Bystander Effect?

                        my fiancee hit me - once. I left the next day. He never came after me. Guess I must not be worth much huh? but, i survived the "rejection". and no man has ever hit me again.

                        Ericyn - I'm so glad that you (unlike many women) survived your experience. and hopefuly, publishing his name as you did will save another woman from your experience.

                        Domestic violence and child abuse are EVIL. They MUST be stopped somehow but I don't know how. It's so scary what women have to go through because of the men who "love" them. Hopefully, there will be some lessons learned from events of the last week.
                        "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                        – Sydney J. Harris

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                        • #42
                          Re: The Bystander Effect?

                          Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
                          my fiancee hit me - once. I left the next day. He never came after me. Guess I must not be worth much huh? but, i survived the "rejection". and no man has ever hit me again.

                          Ericyn - I'm so glad that you (unlike many women) survived your experience. and hopefuly, publishing his name as you did will save another woman from your experience.

                          Domestic violence and child abuse are EVIL. They MUST be stopped somehow but I don't know how. It's so scary what women have to go through because of the men who "love" them. Hopefully, there will be some lessons learned from events of the last week.
                          You know it's not only women that get battered, there are a lot of evil women out there too that know that some guys won't hit a woman no matter how ugly that bitch may be, it's our unwritten code of conduct and some women take advantage of it. Tunoa obviously lives by another code.
                          Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                          • #43
                            Re: The Bystander Effect?

                            Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                            some guys won't hit a woman no matter how ugly that bitch may be, it's our unwritten code of conduct
                            Nice.

                            You have your little "code of conduct" but you'll refer to a woman as a "bitch?"

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                            • #44
                              Re: The Bystander Effect?

                              Originally posted by dick View Post
                              Nice.

                              You have your little "code of conduct" but you'll refer to a woman as a "bitch?"
                              i have no objection to what craig said.

                              his point was that no matter how foul, morally empty and, and vindictively nasty some women can be, most men who uphold a certain code of conduct will not hit her. his use of the word bitch was shorthand in a context that's completely acceptable.

                              i'll even add to craig's thought by saying that there are bitches who physically and psychologically abuse their significant others. one atty i know told me the story of a woman who would beat the soles of her man's feet viciously if he tried to lie down to sleep. this not only led to sleep deprivation, this led to excruciating pain every moment he walked. she would pinch his nipples to the point where he felt as if they would tear off. he never struck back and never was able to restrain her from hurting him. like female victims of domestic violence, he was so demeaned that he thought she'd be the only person who would ever love him.

                              you have to remember that abusers--male and female--know exactly what kind of partner to look for. they want someone whom they can control from the outset. if you've never been in an abusive relationship, count yourself lucky, and be glad that you've never had such low self-esteem that you'd let someone get away with hitting you even once.

                              Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
                              my fiancee hit me - once. I left the next day. He never came after me. Guess I must not be worth much huh? but, i survived the "rejection". and no man has ever hit me again.
                              he didn't come after you because he knew you wouldn't take his crap. it's not that you weren't worth much to him, it's that you were worth more to yourself than he was to you. easier for him to find a new lover who had less self-esteem than to try to break you.

                              the biggest mistake a woman can make is to accept that first strike and come back. no girl or woman should ever forgive a man for his striking her, no matter how much he apologizes or expresses remorse and swears he'll never do it again. she should do exactly as you did--leave right then and there. never look back. if you take back a man or otherwise "forgive" him for hitting you, you both will never forget that you let him cross that uncrossable line. someday, he'll try to push it.

                              going back to bystanders--i feel so sorry for those family and friends who know that their daughter, sister, friend is being abused and can only stand by helplessly. the psychology of abuse doesn't allow for the abused to understand completely the gravity of the situation she is in. if you know someone who is being abused, all you can do is say, "hey, i know he hits you. you are too beautiful/smart/wonderful to accept that. when you are ready to leave, i am there for you. i will help you." i don't have an opinion on whether you should report it if you see evidence of abuse, because doing so can make it more dangerous for the victim. the fact is, you can't make them leave their abuser--if you try, they'll cling more to the person who hits them.
                              superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                              "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                              nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The Bystander Effect?

                                Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
                                my fiancee hit me - once. I left the next day.
                                Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                                the biggest mistake a woman can make is to accept that first strike and come back.
                                I agree. It goes for either gender.

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