Rape comes in a new color: gray!

[kani-lehua]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

not all sluts dress like sluts. i''ve known some private school girls who were sluts. didn't dress like sluts--wore uniforms.

not all alcoholics look like alcoholics. know several professionals and housewives that don't look or act like an alcoholics.

not all addicts look like addicts. don't know any of these. maybe i do, but just don't know it.

not all homeless look homeless. know of only one person who lives in his car; looks clean and reports to work on time every day.

and, not all rapists look like rapists. i really hope i don't know any of these people.

looks can be deceiving.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

forgot to address this part:

Obviously this is a topic that is very personal to you, and your feelings and definitions are, understandably, unwavering. So what, then, is to be gained by trying to explore these apparently non-existent shades of gray? At best, it's just a series of opportunity to be soundly "proven" wrong, and at worst it comes across as an attack on you. A losing proposition, either way.

what is there to be gained? easy. it's to bring this (albeit fallacious) term to the HT audience and to foster thinking about sexual relationships, particularly responsibility to yourself and your partner when engaging in sex.

there could be 99.99% of postings besides mine on this thread who disagree with me about the existence of "gray rape" and while it would frustrate me, i'd continue to be gratified that i have all of you thinking about your own expectations and communications when it comes to sex.

contrary to what you believe, ryan, i did not start this thread to garner "rahrah, you're so right, cyn," responses or to pick a fight with anyone so that i could hold the "i'm a martyr--you can't disagree with me!" "trump card" up. anyone who has ever been a sexual assault victim would find it utterly laughable that it could ever be viewed as an argumentative "trump card" in the first place. boy, that's one costly "trump card!" i'd be glad to be without it, thank you very much.

secondly, i'm not so simplistic a personality that i need yes-(wo)men to cheer me on, nor do i desire to set people up for argumentative "failure." neither do i need anyone to understand "at my level." holey crap--i'm sorry that there have been and there will continue to be those who understand "at my level."

all i want, all i've ever wanted, is for us to argue, discuss, disagree, agree, but most of all THINK about rape/sexual assault/what makes for GOOD sexual relations and what responsibilities we each have when it comes to sex, expectations, communications, etc. nothing like a good, uncomfortable discussion on a subject that is largely taboo to foster thinking. the men reading this thread should think about whether there have been times when their partner was less than enthusiastic during a romp in the hay (and each of you have had a number of those, i'm quite sure) and why. the women reading this thread should think about why they have had less than thrilling trysts (and we all have) and whether they're okay about that. we should all be thinking about the roles of men and women when it comes to sex and how we want to teach our children about those roles.

given the responses i've seen here as well as the emails i've received, i know i've accomplished something much more satisfying than placing fellow HTers in what you refer to as a "losing proposition." my motives for posting about this subject are wholly within the spirit with which you created this website. for me, ryan, it's rather disappointing that you seem to disapprove. *shrug*

oh, lastly, frankie's market--you know very well that hypothetical case you describe would never go to trial in the first place, so i'm not sure what your point was about that one. my point was that if your partner is making this face or this face while you're doing what is supposed to be the dance, you should stop and ask if s/he is okay with what you two are doing at that moment. i don't see why that is so disagreeable.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

oh, lastly, frankie's market--you know very well that hypothetical case you describe would never go to trial in the first place, so i'm not sure what your point was about that one. my point was that if your partner is making this face or this face while you're doing what is supposed to be the dance, you should stop and ask if s/he is okay with what you two are doing at that moment. i don't see why that is so disagreeable.

I didn't mean to make light of sex, date rape, and the judicial proceeding. Indeed, all of the above things are serious. Which is why I wrote that little scenario.

The decision to have (or not have) sex is a serious matter, is it not? That being the case, why would you leave a matter of grave importance to non-verbal forms of communication? Assuming someone is not gagged or threatened to remain silent, I don't see why it "is so disagreeable" to you that rape victims shouldn't verbally articulate for themselves one very simple (but powerful) word. NO.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

Okay Cyn, you're right. One thing I believe we all learned from this exercise is not to argue with a woman who is passionate about her point. As a guy I've learned it's never a good idea to argue with a woman, because even if you're right...you're wrong. So why bother at that point.

This was one good thread but I do believe it is getting too focused on Cyn and not the topic. We can all agree to disagree however in light of how intense this topic can get, I suggest we just agree with Cyn and agree that rape is rape no matter what color it comes in.

So Cyn...how's the weather on Oahu?

[cynsaligia]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

The decision to have (or not have) sex is a serious matter, is it not? That being the case, why would you leave a matter of grave importance to non-verbal forms of communication? Assuming someone is not gagged or threatened to remain silent, I don't see why it "is so disagreeable" to you that rape victims shouldn't verbally articulate for themselves one very simple (but powerful) word. NO.

because sex is so much more complicated, and how lazy, careless, and inept is a lover if s/he plows through the act thinking that hey, if s/he doesn't say "no," or "stop," i must be doing good!

the whole thing about "enthusiastic consent," verbal or non-verbal, is to PREVENT an act going down that road to possible sexual assault while promoting the idea that the best sex isn't about transactions and obligations, it's not about lying there waiting while your partner finishes so you can go to sleep, it's about a joyful celebration of life and body and yes, hopefully, love.

Okay Cyn, you're right. One thing I believe we all learned from this exercise is not to argue with a woman who is passionate about her point. As a guy I've learned it's never a good idea to argue with a woman, because even if you're right...you're wrong. So why bother at that point.

craig, no sense "not bothering" if you're not going to try to understand. additionally, just bcs you think you're right doesn't mean you are. (which applies to me, too.)

This was one good thread but I do believe it is getting too focused on Cyn and not the topic. We can all agree to disagree however in light of how intense this topic can get, I suggest we just agree with Cyn and agree that rape is rape no matter what color it comes in.

i never intended this to be "about me." this is about rape/sexual assault, which i happen to have been a victim of. count six women in your life. statistically speaking, one of them is a sexual assault or rape victim. every 2 minutes, someone in america is being sexually assaulted. three fourths of all sexual assaults were committed by someone known to the victim (like a relative, boyfriend, husband, date, friend).

my view of sexual assault (that it either was, or wasn't sexual assault; that it was or wasn't rape--no gray area) fits into my vision of relationships for men and women, hetero or not. it's one where we joyfully communicate and make honest, good faith attempts to understand each other. when i say that we "joyfully communicate," i don't mean that we don't argue. i envision everyone having relationships where yes, there are disagreements, but the lines of communication are always open. i envision even casual sexual relationships and one night stands having an honesty that they don't often have, because supposedly just speaking about sex supposedly ruins sex completely. i envision all of us raising our children to be honorable and not make judgments about what people deserve to happen to them because they're dressed a certain way, maybe get more than a little chemically happy, or kiss someone of a gender that is not opposite of theirs in public. i envision us raising our kids so that they are neither suspicious of nor take advantage of the opposite sex or are dismissive or hateful to those who are not of the same sexual orientation. i envision a world where we don't excuse boorish behavior by males by saying, "boys will be boys." i envision a world where a girl is always happy to be a girl and sees her life as limitless in possibilities as boys are raised to see their lives.

So Cyn...how's the weather on Oahu?

it's rather cool, the sun is dripping in through the windows, and eric is still snuffling in bed. neither of us has to go in to work, so it's a beautiful morning in kaimuki.

[1stwahine]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

anyone who has ever been a sexual assault victim would find it utterly laughable that it could ever be viewed as an argumentative "trump card" in the first place. boy, that's one costly "trump card!" i'd be glad to be without it, thank you very much.

secondly, i'm not so simplistic a personality that i need yes-(wo)men to cheer me on, nor do i desire to set people up for argumentative "failure." neither do i need anyone to understand "at my level." holey crap--i'm sorry that there have been and there will continue to be those who understand "at my level."

I never ever think my Sexual Assaults as being a Trump Card!

I'm not book smart either. However, I have many years of Life experience behind me. You make Sex seem so Ugly when it's not. Rape is Rape and should be eh, neba mind wat's the sense of explaining...you only want to hear your reason!

As far as what you envision.

Wake-up and smell the roses. This is Reality...I fight it every time I go to the State Capital, City Hall and Neighborhood Board Meetings, etc.!

Lynn Vasquez

[cynsaligia]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

I never ever think my Sexual Assaults as being a Trump Card!

i'm not the one who called it a trump card; ryan did.

You make Sex seem so Ugly when it's not. Rape is Rape and should be eh, neba mind wat's the sense of explaining...

i agree, rape is rape. no gray area. that's been my point all this time, from post one of this thread.

where, exactly, did you get the idea that i thought sex was ugly when i've called it a "joyful expression?"

Wake-up and smell the roses. This is Reality...I fight it every time I go to the State Capital, City Hall and Neighborhood Board Meetings, etc.!

when you say this to me, auntie, it sounds as if you think i'm naive, grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth, and have had a cushy life. you know a little bit more about me personally than most on HT so it's rather insulting when you tell me to wake up and smell roses. madam, not only do i smell roses, but i smell shit, too. in this particular thread, the shit is this nonsense about there ever being "gray rape," that sex is "contractual" and that a woman gets what she deserves when she dresses a certain way.

maybe i am book-smart to a certain degree. but my book-smarts don't diminish my street smarts. neither do my street smarts diminish my ability to envision more and better for myself, for other victims of rape and sexual abuse, and for everyone in general.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

Okay Cyn, you're right. One thing I believe we all learned from this exercise is not to argue with a woman who is passionate about her point. As a guy I've learned it's never a good idea to argue with a woman, because even if you're right...you're wrong. So why bother at that point.

I wasn't gonna touch this one, until I re-read where it said "we all learned." It's an easy fall-back position to take, regarding relationships and debate between genders - but it's not quite right. Arguing with anyone who is passionate about a topic can be very enlightening.

This was one good thread but I do believe it is getting too focused on Cyn and not the topic. We can all agree to disagree however in light of how intense this topic can get, I suggest we just agree with Cyn and agree that rape is rape no matter what color it comes in.

It's indeed an excellent thread. Yes, Cyn's personal story is a part of it, but I didn't feel that it shifted the focus away. Many of us have our personal connections to rape, unfortunately, whether we share them or not - but Cyn is right in saying that we don't need to have been personally affected to grasp the points being discussed.

She, and others, have stated "rape is rape" - and I would agree. The discussions here have covered ground that different perspectives could see as falling short of "rape."

Bottom line is, it's our personal morals that keep us from committing rape, theft, murder, etc., and not the risk of penalties. I think it's safe to say that the majority of those posting here would not commit rape, because they would "know" it was wrong - just as we "know" it would be wrong to take money from the wallet (in the situation described earlier). Those who have trouble with that basic concept, for whatever reason, are the ones who commit the assaults.