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Rape comes in a new color: gray!

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  • #16
    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

    No one answered the question I posted earlier, so I won't bother to give my opinions on each situation.

    I will state that I see the original stories were more a cautionary tale then any effort at clarifying legal issues. It's all about not having regrets the next morning. Sure, there are laws against assault, robbery and murder. But that doesn't mean it's OK to walk though the bad part of town at night. Likewise, don't let yourself get set up for things that go further then what you want.

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    • #17
      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
      Sure, there are laws against assault, robbery and murder. But that doesn't mean it's OK to walk though the bad part of town at night.
      Strictly speaking, that's not true. There's no legislating against that kind of stupidity and lack of common sense. If some idiot decides to walk into a dangerous alley showing off a Rolex watch, there's nothing anyone can do to stop him from that stupid act. If the guy gets mugged and the thief is later caught trying to pawn the Rolex, he's still guilty of theft. That does not change. Of course, it would be understandable if the "victim" in this situation gets little public sympathy. But as much ridicule as people can heap on him, Mr. Rolex is, in fact, a victim in this scenario. A stupid victim, yes. But a victim nonetheless.

      Same thing too with a girl who goes into a guy's home, where the guy tries to put the moves on her, but she avoids a sexual encounter only because his parents suddenly came home. If the girl decides to go back to that guy's home again the next night and a sexual encounter does take place despite the girl saying no, can she still press charges of date rape? Yes she can. Like the guy in my Rolex example, she is still the victim, in spite of a definite lack of common sense on her part.

      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
      Likewise, don't let yourself get set up for things that go further then what you want.
      EXACTLY! Just because you are a "victim" doesn't automatically make you deserving of anyone else's sympathy, especially if stupidity and foolishness on your part was what put you in that situation in the first place.
      Last edited by Frankie's Market; February 6, 2008, 01:54 AM.
      This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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      • #18
        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

        Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
        Strictly speaking, that's not true. There's no legislating against that kind of stupidity and lack of common sense.
        From a legal standpoint, you are correct. I guess I should have qualified what I meant by "OK" a little more. I think you got the idea with the second quote.

        Bottom line, if you have to go to the police/courts then in a way you've already "lost". Because something bad has already happened. It's much better to not have bad things happen at all.

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        • #19
          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

          Examples of robbery, mugging, etc. are good, but they miss a couple of the major factors in the so-called 'gray rape' scenario - excessive alcohol and young people making bad decisions. Let's remove sex from the equation (we won't even mention gender in the example) and see how the responses go.

          A group of young people are at a party and they are all completely drunk. Collectively they decide that it would be a great idea to go to the beach. They pile into a car and careen down the road egging the driver on with shouts to "go faster", "hit the gas", etc. Everyone is having a drunken good time when suddenly someone sees a hazard on the road, but it's too late; they crash. By the grace of God no one is killed, but some of them are hurt. If one of my kids had been in the car, I would hope that they understood that they bore some level of responsibility for the accident even though they weren't behind the wheel. Would I sue the driver because my kid was injured? No. Would my kid have learned a lesson in personal responsibility in a very hard way? Yes. If they had killed an innocent person, would my child have been partly responsible? Absolutely.

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          • #20
            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

            Originally posted by glossyp View Post
            Let's remove sex from the equation (we won't even mention gender in the example) and see how the responses go.
            That's really hard to do in a discussion such as this. We can come up with all kinds of variations and examples for comparison - but they all fall short. There really isn't any other situation I can think of that is an "equal" circumstance to rape, to sexual assault. Issues of gender, power and "violation of person" come into play in ways that compare to nothing else - which is why it brings new levels of "gray" into the conversation.

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            • #21
              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
              That's really hard to do in a discussion such as this. We can come up with all kinds of variations and examples for comparison - but they all fall short. There really isn't any other situation I can think of that is an "equal" circumstance to rape, to sexual assault. Issues of gender, power and "violation of person" come into play in ways that compare to nothing else - which is why it brings new levels of "gray" into the conversation.
              Without a doubt. My effort was to remove some of the understandably emotional responses sexuality brings into a discussion like this and look at some of the elements (excessive drinking/youthful bad judgment) from another angle. There really is nothing which compares, but stepping back a bit doesn't hurt and might help to gain a different perspective.

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              • #22
                Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                Have you seen the "Red Bull" college commercial?

                The guy is studying and says no to her advances, while the girl then gives him a drink and takes advantage of him.
                Many would say... "Lucky guy!", but he did say "No".

                youtube of commercial...
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ReU3AtWt0
                Last edited by Menehune Man; February 6, 2008, 03:54 PM.
                Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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                • #23
                  Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                  for the first time ever on HT, i'm pulling out of a discussion.

                  my most sarcastic and scathing thanks to those of you who posted opinions which tell me that i deserved being sexually assaulted.
                  superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                  "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                  nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                    No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, but what do you think should have happened with the couple that couldn't remember what happened last night?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                      my most sarcastic and scathing thanks to those of you who posted opinions which tell me that i deserved being sexually assaulted.
                      No one said you deserved to be sexually assaulted, you didn't even say you had. I wish it hadn't happened. Really.

                      Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post

                      1) Someone I know was dragged off into the bushes when she was 16 and raped. She fought as best she could.
                      They never caught the man. This was before she had given herself to anyone. How unfair.

                      2) I know someone else from back in high school, who had sex then regretted it the next day and blamed the boy. All the parents got together to talk and the girl recanted and accepted the fact that she "just did something she wished she hadn't."
                      Could've destroyed his life. How unfair.
                      Both of my examples are true life stories. So I personally know both sides.
                      My wife was raped at 16 (told me the story), and I almost got charged with rape when in reality she picked the time, place, and me! What the "_ _ _ _"!

                      If someone is not responsible for anything, then don't accept that responsibility. On the other hand, if they are... then do! Period.
                      Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                        Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                        No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, but what do you think should have happened with the couple that couldn't remember what happened last night?
                        Indeed. That was generally my understanding of the term of the moment. If the honest answer from all parties involved as to what happened is, "I don't know," then I can't see how you can expect an automatic judgment in either direction. It would be nice to live in a black and white world, but there are "shades of grey" for a reason.
                        Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
                        No one said you deserved to be sexually assaulted, you didn't even say you had. I wish it hadn't happened. Really.
                        Indeed. Though one might have suspected such considering how personally some replies were taken. In retrospect, then, I'm not even sure a reasonable discussion was ever going to be a likely (or intended) result here.

                        Some circumstances are avoidable, some are not. Regardless of personal anecdotes, possible scenarios, media accounts or Hollywood portrayals, "rape" as a legal definition as a crime is something for courts to determine on a case by case basis. Not all accusations result in a conviction for a multitude of reasons. Hence, no black and white model can be forced onto the unfortunately messy reality.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                          hah. i'm glad to say that tonight, i'm making an unintended liar of myself here. anyway:

                          Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
                          ...I'm not even sure a reasonable discussion was ever going to be a likely (or intended) result here.
                          surely, by this, you do not mean that i should never have brought the subject up?

                          Originally posted by pzarquon View Post

                          Some circumstances are avoidable, some are not. Regardless of personal anecdotes, possible scenarios, media accounts or Hollywood portrayals, "rape" as a legal definition as a crime is something for courts to determine on a case by case basis. Not all accusations result in a conviction for a multitude of reasons. Hence, no black and white model can be forced onto the unfortunately messy reality.
                          actually, it is black and white. there is no gray. how can you tell? the following simple test:

                          if one did not give consent clearly either verbally or non-verbally, it's rape.

                          i never said that there weren't times when one person gives consent at first and then regrets it in the morning and then cries rape. i never have, and never will, call that kind of event "rape."

                          i never said that there weren't times when both wake up the morning after and neither can remember a thing but it's obvious they did the deed and regret it. that's not rape either. that's stupidity.

                          i never said that just because someone didn't give consent that it is easily be proven in a court of law that it was rape. provability does not necessarily mean the crime did or didn't happen or that a person did or did not do the crime, as we all know from cases in the media (OJ for example).

                          what my point has always been, from my initial thread-starter, is that it is never justifiable to take what does not belong to you if it was not truly freely given. what proponents of the idea of "gray" rape is that acting or dressing in a certain way or that drinking or doing drugs somehow erases or mediates the rapist's responsibility and puts it on the victim.

                          if a girl, no matter how scantily dressed (perhaps in a way that someone might believe she was "asking for it") is dragged into the bushes and her virginity taken while she fights mightily, that is rape.

                          if a man is totally inebriated and a sober woman takes him home and she has sex with him, that is rape (intoxication negates any ability to give consent).

                          if a husband climbs on his wife and she says, "not tonight, honey--i have a headache," but he goes on anyway, that is rape.

                          people who claim that there is a grayness to rape perpetuate the idea that somehow, people can deserve to be violated sexually. to promote this idea of "grayness" does no one any good. to teach our children--yep, i'm specifically referring to college kids--that there might be "gray" rape is unforgivable.

                          any "gray" when it comes to rape is a complete and utter fallacy. it either is, or isn't, rape.
                          Last edited by cynsaligia; February 7, 2008, 06:47 PM.
                          superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                          "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                          nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                            It seems here that this is a matter of perception. One feels this is a black and white issue where as others feel there are shades of gray. For someone who's passionate about prosecution of rapists it seems black and white, but for others that seem that the victim can play a major role in the outcome of a rape incident, well then it's shades of gray.

                            Both parties need to take responsibility in how we set ourselves up during the course of the day. If you dress to entice well expect attention. Some of that attention may be more than what you figured and in some cases too much to the point of regret.

                            You put candy out and almost for sure, the roaches will come. If you didn't put it out chances are the roaches won't come.

                            If you encourage someone to have concentual sex with you, expect it. But if you change your mind, remember you have to change the mind of the one you gave permission to in the first place. Like a verbal contract the breaking of one has to be mutual just like the creation of one.

                            If two people enter into a contract then one decides to back out after agreeing to the terms of that contract, that basically is breach of contract and the one breaking it can be sued.

                            When two people agree to concentual sex, that is a verbal agreement or a verbal contract and the laws apply here.

                            And with contracts there are mitigating circumstances that can affect the legality or the weight of that contract. In other words, shades of gray. There is no cut and dry circumstances in any contract unless it's written. But even a written contract is subject to scrutiny and wording. Once again, shades of gray.

                            If the original agreement was to be platonic and sex ensued, then I can see rape as a charge because the agreement didn't include sex. However if the agreement did specify some degree of sexual activity and one partner backs out...well then someone broke that agreement or in this case a verbal contract.

                            Lesson learned? Read the fine print and never consent to anything unless you're able to follow thru. If you cannot or will not, you shouldn't be agreeing in the first place. Live and learn.

                            Now in the case of uncertainty of consent, well that's an entirely different situation. One can argue that the agreement was done under duress or when the mind under the influence of a drug (alcohol). Like an insanity case, one can argue that they were not in their right minds when they possibly consented. However the defense can use the same arguement saying that they were not in their right minds when they committed the rape.

                            In this case since both the prosecution and the defense cannot indicate that they were in control of their minds at the time of the possible consent, I would think the case would be thrown out for lack of evidence in defense on either side.
                            Last edited by craigwatanabe; February 7, 2008, 08:12 PM.
                            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                              Well,.... after all that, what can I say?

                              Nothing much, except;

                              If you or someone you know may have been a victim of sexual abuse of any sort. Whether it happened 24 hours ago or 24 years. There are local and national organizations and resources that are available to provide you and your loved ones with the needed help.

                              Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network (http://www.rainn.org/ or 1-800-656-HOPE)

                              The Sex Abuse Treatment Center (http://satchawaii.com/ or 808-524-RAPE)

                              Both hotlines are open 24/7 and are totally confidential. Besides helping victims to report incidents to the authorities, these organizations provide a multitude of other services. Counseling and therapy for victims. Prevention education programs. And so much more.
                              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                                Well,.... after all that, what can I say?

                                Nothing much, except;

                                If you or someone you know may have been a victim of sexual abuse of any sort. Whether it happened 24 hours ago or 24 years. There are local and national organizations and resources that are available to provide you and your loved ones with the needed help.

                                Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network (http://www.rainn.org/ or 1-800-656-HOPE)

                                The Sex Abuse Treatment Center (http://satchawaii.com/ or 808-524-RAPE)

                                Both hotlines are open 24/7 and are totally confidential. Besides helping victims to report incidents to the authorities, these organizations provide a multitude of other services. Counseling and therapy for victims. Prevention education programs. And so much more.

                                And there's jail for the other side of rape.
                                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                                Comment

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