Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rape comes in a new color: gray!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    If you dress to entice well expect attention. Some of that attention may be more than what you figured and in some cases too much to the point of regret.

    You put candy out and almost for sure, the roaches will come. If you didn't put it out chances are the roaches won't come.
    argument falls short. i could be wearing a tank top and shorts because it's a hot day and there will be some guy out there who thinks that's a "come rape me" outfit.

    i could be wearing a turtleneck and black pants but red strappy heels and some guy out there will be some guy there who thinks that's a "come rape me" outfit.

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    If you encourage someone to have concentual sex with you, expect it. But if you change your mind, remember you have to change the mind of the one you gave permission to in the first place. Like a verbal contract the breaking of one has to be mutual just like the creation of one.

    If two people enter into a contract then one decides to back out after agreeing to the terms of that contract, that basically is breach of contract and the one breaking it can be sued.
    this also falls short. if i put out an ad in the paper saying i want to sell my car, and you come by to buy the car, i still have the right NOT to sell the car to you.

    additionally, when it comes to sex, either party can change their mind at any point in time, and the other party legally HAS to abide by the other person's wishes. the law recognizes that.

    by the way, craig, it's "consentual." and consent to sex should always be "enthusiastic." if you're not getting enthusiasm, stop immediately.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

      OK, now I better understand the points you were trying to make.

      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
      people who claim that there is a grayness to rape perpetuate the idea that somehow, people can deserve to be violated sexually.
      No one deserves to be violated, but on the flip side, just like any other crime there are factors that can get one "selected" by the perpetrator. It's wise to know what they are and act accordingly. Maybe not the dress, but in being alone in a bad area, or getting so drunk they can no longer defend themself.


      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
      additionally, when it comes to sex, either party can change their mind at any point in time, and the other party legally HAS to abide by the other person's wishes. the law recognizes that.
      Which bring up the example of the woman who changed her mind. I've got no problems with her changing her mind, but she needs to clearly give enough notice that's there's time to react. Her response wasn't terribly clear and wasn't very timely. While I'm sure she felt violated, that would be one for the court to rule on. One can't change their mind a microsecond before and put all the blame on the partner. (Reaction time to sound is about 160 milliseconds.)


      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
      and consent to sex should always be "enthusiastic." if you're not getting enthusiasm, stop immediately.
      Is this your own opinion or is coming from somewhere else? While it's not bad advice, it strikes me as trying to redefine consent.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

        Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
        actually, it is black and white. there is no gray. how can you tell? the following simple test:
        if one did not give consent clearly either verbally or non-verbally, it's rape.
        But with these highlighted words, you put the "gray" back into the equation - non-verbal signals are open to a world of interpretation, and that's an "out" that a rapist will cling to.
        Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
        ...consent to sex should always be "enthusiastic." if you're not getting enthusiasm, stop immediately.
        Why do I have a sad feeling that there are a number of people (who either are now or have previously been in long-term relationships) currently biting their tongues?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

          Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
          It would be nice to live in a black and white world, but there are "shades of grey" for a reason. ...
          Hence, no black and white model can be forced onto the unfortunately messy reality.
          Personally, I think a world bereft of life's subtleties painted with shades of gray would be quite boring. We live in an analog world with a digital system of laws. It's the job of the courts to act as Analog-to-Digital Converters. Luckily, most of us come equipped with our own fuses and rheostats, a.k.a., a conscience and a brain.

          On the issue of consent, I'm reminded of the David Chappelle skit where he has his bed mate sign a stack of consent forms before they finally get down to "business," just to cover his ass. Hilarious in its over-the-top absurdity, the skit is simultaneously a keen parable that sexual consent is not a trifling matter. Since I've always been a big believer in the fair division of labor, I would often let the woman go on top first or guide the ship into port during my era of singledom. That was my simple method of ruling out any consent issues.
          "If it's brown, it's cooked. If it's black, it's f***ed" - G. Ramsey

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

            If that were the case then all civil cases should be based on reasonable doubt and not a perponderance of evidence.

            I stand by my statement that a mutual agreement or consent is a binding verbal contract and to undo that contract requires a breach of it or a mutual agreement to break it. But if one party of a contract retracts then the other is entitled to the benefits of receiving the virtues of a broken contract.

            Just because you have second thoughts on a contractual agreement that doesn't mean you have the right to pull out without compensation to the other party. I believe it's called a contingency clause.

            If you want to see romance in black and white then a written consent decree should be mandated on consentual sex. Now if the person drafting the contract has you consenting at your residence and not at their place of action, then the three-day option of legally breaking the contract should be allowed as a contingency. That way the term Your place or Mine can make a great difference between rape and consentual sex, it depends on who bought the drinks...I guess.

            On the issue of how one dresses relating to the weather. If you're gonna dress like a slut, guess what...

            But if you dress respectfully and tastefully, then that's a reflection on your personality.

            Now a rapist will rape whomever they want, but if sex is what you're looking for, would you get excited over a librarian with black horn rimmed glasses in a T-shirt that says "I'm with stupid" or someone dressed like a slut with a tatoo on her abdoment that says, "Vote for Bush" and has an arrow pointing to her crotch?

            If you look like one, then the world will perceive you as one. So dress appropriately. It's not all about oneself, it's about how oneself is perceived by the masses and how those in those masses will react to the way you conduct yourself in public. To a smoker tossing a single butt may not be considered littering, but to a cop, well just don't catch him on a bad day.

            To someone who is dressing like Paris Hilton on drugs just to feel comfortable on a hot day, to a sexual predator, you're game. I think the term is, "Player".
            Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

              Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
              If that were the case then all civil cases should be based on reasonable doubt and not a perponderance of evidence.
              Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
              I stand by my statement that a mutual agreement or consent is a binding verbal contract and to undo that contract requires a breach of it or a mutual agreement to break it. But if one party of a contract retracts then the other is entitled to the benefits of receiving the virtues of a broken contract.

              Just because you have second thoughts on a contractual agreement that doesn't mean you have the right to pull out without compensation to the other party. I believe it's called a contingency clause.

              If you want to see romance in black and white then a written consent decree should be mandated on consentual sex. Now if the person drafting the contract has you consenting at your residence and not at their place of action, then the three-day option of legally breaking the contract should be allowed as a contingency. That way the term Your place or Mine can make a great difference between rape and consentual sex, it depends on who bought the drinks...I guess.
              my advice to you, mr. watanabe, if ever you find yourself in court is DO. NOT. GO. THE. PRO. SE. ROUTE. you'd shoot yourself in the foot...and elsewhere, too.

              let's take the scenario eric describes, where a man lies back and lets the woman guide the ship to port. he's inviting her to have sex, correct? so let's assume the following sequence:

              1. kissing & touching parts that are normally seen in public
              2. kissing & touching non-genital parts that are not normally seen in public
              3. kissing & touching genitals
              4. inserting genitals into parts where, presumably, children could result
              5. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out two pairs of silk stockings to tie your extremities to the bed.
              6. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out a 12 inch long, 6 inch wide butt plug which she will use to "stimulate" your prostate vigorously. no worries, tho--she has a lot of lube!

              according to your stance, because you've pretty much tacitly agreed to everything up to item 4, it's a forgone conclusion that you consent to item #5 and then item #6.

              luckily for you, the law does not see it that way. just because one agrees to kiss you doesn't mean that she agrees to have you touch her breasts. just because she agrees to allow you to put your mouth on her breasts does not mean she agrees to have you put your mouth onto her pubis. just because she let you put your penis in her anus yesterday does not mean that you have "perpetual consent" to do it any time you want again after that. every different sexual act is another item that must be enthusiastically consented to. otherwise, it is rape.

              life might be shades of gray. the law, when it comes to rape, is black and white. if your partner did not consent verbally or non-verbally in a clear manner, then you do not have consent. if your partner is intoxicated, just took some nyquil and is rather out of it, or otherwise not alert and oriented and fully capable, your partner is, according to the law, not able to consent.

              this attorney describes wisconsin law & practice. every state's laws have their nuances, but this is a good guide about sexual consent.

              here's the 'was i raped?' section of the rape, abuse, & incest national network.

              i'm sure your boys are charming, mr. watanabe, but if what you're telling us here is an example of what you're telling your boys, i truly shudder for any of my future daughters to cross your kids' paths. i know you've said in HT before that you teach your sons to respect and adore women (and it's clear you respect and adore your wife). but if you perpetuate the idea that a future sexual partner of your son's is obligated to do what he wants in bed just because she allowed a sequence of other acts first or allowed a certain act yesterday and that she cannot rescind her consent, then you are not teaching your sons what you think you are.

              if i had sons, what would i teach them? this tongue-in-cheek but surprisingly helpful quiz on about.com sums it all up.
              superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

              "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

              nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                surely, by this, you do not mean that i should never have brought the subject up?
                Not at all. But the late disclosure, pulled out as a trump card, makes clear the degree of discussion and dissent that's ultimately going to be welcomed on the topic.

                And as this continues, I suspect that no matter how many real or proverbial sons and daughters are assaulted or thrown into other horrific and gratuitiously explicit scenarios, no imaginary threat or exception will be able to supercede, "So you're saying I deserved {x}?"
                actually, it is black and white. there is no gray.
                Obviously this is a topic that is very personal to you, and your feelings and definitions are, understandably, unwavering. So what, then, is to be gained by trying to explore these apparently non-existent shades of gray? At best, it's just a series of opportunity to be soundly "proven" wrong, and at worst it comes across as an attack on you. A losing proposition, either way.

                I'm sorry for what you experienced and concede that I couldn't possibly understand the issue at the level at which you're operating.

                I don't want to agitate anyone's old wounds or be found a fool for debating semantics (non-verbal consent? enthusiastic?). So that's what I meant. Of course I was just speaking for myself, and if anyone else wants to continue down the path, they're welcome to it.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                  I think the problem with debating the idea of "shades of gray" in any topic,
                  especially in regards to rape, is that people have a hard time seeing the other point of view contrasting with their 'locked in' opinion.

                  All people, female or male have the right to say no at any stage of the sexual encounter. It may be absolutely and completely unfair to the other person, but it is NOT a business contract.

                  Example: My wife and I have been married for many years.
                  That doesn't mean that when, where, or how I wish to have sex she has to agree.
                  I'm sure glad when she does though.
                  Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                    Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                    4. inserting genitals into parts where, presumably, children could result
                    5. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out two pairs of silk stockings to tie your extremities to the bed.
                    6. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out a 12 inch long, 6 inch wide butt plug which she will use to "stimulate" your prostate vigorously. no worries, tho--she has a lot of lube!
                    As a victim of molestation as a child. I grew up being scared of men. It was because of professionals, as well as my spiritual belief, I am fortunate to know making love is a beautiful passionate experience between two people. Reading some of the examples makes it seem so horrible on this Valentines Day.

                    Eh...Have a great Nooky Nooky tonight!

                    Cuff me baby and throw away the keys!

                    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

                    Auntie Lynn
                    Last edited by 1stwahine; February 14, 2008, 09:44 AM.
                    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                      Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                      my advice to you, mr. watanabe, if ever you find yourself in court is DO. NOT. GO. THE. PRO. SE. ROUTE. you'd shoot yourself in the foot...and elsewhere, too.

                      let's take the scenario eric describes, where a man lies back and lets the woman guide the ship to port. he's inviting her to have sex, correct? so let's assume the following sequence:

                      1. kissing & touching parts that are normally seen in public
                      2. kissing & touching non-genital parts that are not normally seen in public
                      3. kissing & touching genitals
                      4. inserting genitals into parts where, presumably, children could result
                      5. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out two pairs of silk stockings to tie your extremities to the bed.
                      6. the woman reaching into her drawer to pull out a 12 inch long, 6 inch wide butt plug which she will use to "stimulate" your prostate vigorously. no worries, tho--she has a lot of lube!

                      according to your stance, because you've pretty much tacitly agreed to everything up to item 4, it's a forgone conclusion that you consent to item #5 and then item #6.

                      luckily for you, the law does not see it that way. just because one agrees to kiss you doesn't mean that she agrees to have you touch her breasts. just because she agrees to allow you to put your mouth on her breasts does not mean she agrees to have you put your mouth onto her pubis. just because she let you put your penis in her anus yesterday does not mean that you have "perpetual consent" to do it any time you want again after that. every different sexual act is another item that must be enthusiastically consented to. otherwise, it is rape.

                      life might be shades of gray. the law, when it comes to rape, is black and white. if your partner did not consent verbally or non-verbally in a clear manner, then you do not have consent. if your partner is intoxicated, just took some nyquil and is rather out of it, or otherwise not alert and oriented and fully capable, your partner is, according to the law, not able to consent.

                      this attorney describes wisconsin law & practice. every state's laws have their nuances, but this is a good guide about sexual consent.

                      here's the 'was i raped?' section of the rape, abuse, & incest national network.

                      i'm sure your boys are charming, mr. watanabe, but if what you're telling us here is an example of what you're telling your boys, i truly shudder for any of my future daughters to cross your kids' paths. i know you've said in HT before that you teach your sons to respect and adore women (and it's clear you respect and adore your wife). but if you perpetuate the idea that a future sexual partner of your son's is obligated to do what he wants in bed just because she allowed a sequence of other acts first or allowed a certain act yesterday and that she cannot rescind her consent, then you are not teaching your sons what you think you are.

                      if i had sons, what would i teach them? this tongue-in-cheek but surprisingly helpful quiz on about.com sums it all up.
                      I don't tell my boys things like that. But remember the topic is on consentual sex. not foreplay. If both parties agree to sex, that's a verbal contract. If one decides against it after agreeing to it, the other party can pursue legal claim of breach of contract. That is the law!

                      You take this thread thru various scenerios listing them numerically and despise them as shades of gray. I am simply looking it at black and white as you suggest. If you're a party to a crime, then you are to some point guilty of it. Black and White. You dress to play football then expect to be treated like a football player. If you dress like a slut, expect to be treated like one.

                      Now I do tell my boys to watch out for those who tease with their bodies and to think with their minds not their crotch.

                      I'm sorry Cyn but if you want to see it as Black and White, then don't be surprised if an acquittal is presented because the prosecution presented too many scenerios in shades of gray. In a contract there are only absolutes. You agree to sex, you must follow thru. Failure to do so is breach of contract. In a legal world, that's the unfortunate finality for the victim of consentual sex who changed her mind because she didn't know what she was getting herself into until it was too late. Yeah the defense is scum but in a world of blind justice...the prosecution broke the contract, he didn't.

                      If you entered into an agreement with no contingency or back door out and you decided against it during the term of that contract, there is no shades of gray here, you broke a binding legal agreement. You bought that car, cell phone contract, plumbing repair, sex. You can always appeal, the laws of our land allow for that.

                      That's why I tell my boys be careful to what you agree to because you could get more than you bargained for and in a world of tort, nobody likes to accept blame anymore, but they love to cast it.

                      Anyone who agrees to consentual sex without any regards to love or trust are total fools and should face their wrath in a court of law. But it takes two to consent so both are somewhat responsible for their fates.

                      And that's exactly what I tell my boys and would tell my daughters if I had any. If you look like a fool and dress like one, guess what, you are. So dress wisely because in a world of subjectiveness, you may feel hot (weather wise) and there will be someone that will get that message that you're hot but not in ways you thought.

                      As the communicator, it's up to you to send the correct message and to ensure the receiver gets it right. Speech 101.
                      Last edited by craigwatanabe; February 14, 2008, 09:48 AM.
                      Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                        Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post

                        As the communicator, it's up to you to send the correct message and to ensure the receiver gets it right. Speech 101.
                        business law 101: contractual law does NOT apply to "personal services" which is the closest thing that an agreement to sex could possibly be.

                        and you're completely not understanding me in terms of the points i am trying to make, which, in summary are:

                        rape is rape. agreed-upon sex is agreed-upon sex. there is no gray area between rape/other sexual assault and agreed-upon sex. the consent to sex is seen as legal only if it was made verbally or non-verbally but clearly. silence, intoxication, lack of consciousness all void consent. dressing in shorts and tank top to go to UH does not equal giving consent to sex. getting drunk at a nightclub when you're wearing a short dress with no underwear does not equal giving consent to sex. agreeing to go to some guy's house does not equal giving consent to sex. additionally, in most states of the US, at any point in intercourse, you are legally obligated to stop if your partner wants you to. you are not allowed to "finish" if your partner wants to stop.

                        to address some things ryan and others brought up re "non-verbal" and "enthusiastic," let me point out that you know, when you're getting it on, whether your partner is "into it" or "not into it" based on what they say or their facial expressions/body language. if your partner isn't "into it," if you truly care for your partner, i'm sure you stop. simple as that. those who don't stop fall into the category of having committed sexual assault, simple as that. black and white as that.

                        for the record, whether i was ever sexually assaulted or not, i would feel just as passionately about this. i feel equal passion about abortion rights, but i've never gotten an abortion. that's why i didn't remind everyone that i had been a victim of sexual assault (i've mentioned it before on HT).

                        additionally, i most passionately believe that you do not need to be a victim of sexual assault to understand that not only does "no mean no" but that every act of sex, starting from foreplay all the way to finish, including change of position, etc has to be something completely agreed upon enthusiastically by both partners. if you don't understand this concept, then at the very least, every time you get into bed with someone, you are a truly crappy lover, but in addition, you could be committing sexual assault, all the way up to rape.

                        proving sexual assault in a court of law is a totally different issue. however, if someone robbed you and you know it but couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt in court does not mean that the person didn't rob you either.
                        superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                        "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                        nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                          Key points that draw my attention:
                          Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                          proving sexual assault in a court of law is a totally different issue.
                          Absolutely right. People who have committed acts in violation of laws walk away freely every day, because of the burden of proof in a courtroom. Our legal system gives the benefit of the doubt to most citizens, hence "innocent until proven guilty." Sadly, some law-breakers are acquitted - but it's the price we pay to avoid having innocent people convicted. Thank you for noting the distinction in this discussion.
                          Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                          there is no gray area between rape/other sexual assault and agreed-upon sex. the consent to sex is seen as legal only if it was made verbally or non-verbally but clearly.
                          As I said before, when you put that "non-verbally" part in your statements, you add the gray area; that's where you leave it open to interpretation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                            Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                            That is probably the BEST quiz. There's needs to be a whole lot more of that kind of mentality - honor and integrity in ALL aspects of life. And yes, that is exactly what my husband and I tried to teach our son. And to the best of our ability, we taught him by example.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                              Key points that draw my attention:
                              PUINSAI & All PAU!!!

                              Auntie Lynn
                              Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                              Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Rape comes in a new color: gray!

                                Originally posted by ericncyn View Post
                                to address some things ryan and others brought up re "non-verbal" and "enthusiastic," let me point out that you know, when you're getting it on, whether your partner is "into it" or "not into it" based on what they say or their facial expressions/body language.
                                I can just imagine now how a date rape trial would unfold.

                                Attorney: Did you or did you not consent to having sex with the defendant.

                                Accuser: I most certainly did NOT!

                                Attorney: And how did you communicate your unwillingness to the defendant? Did you tell him "no"?

                                Accuser: Actually, I didn't say anything. I expressed myself to him in a non-verbal manner.

                                Attorney: Could you demonstrate to this court exactly how you expressed yourself before the alleged sexual assault took place?

                                Accuser: I glanced at him like this.

                                Attorney: I see.

                                Accuser: If I wanted to have sex with him, I would have looked at him like this.

                                Fast-forward to the end of the trial.

                                Judge: After carefully considering all of the evidence and the testimony, I have come to the verdict of

                                Accuser: What do you mean?

                                Judge: That's my non-verbal way of saying "not guilty." Case dismissed!
                                This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X