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Thread: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    By the way, am I the only one here who thinks Banmiller is a jerk on simply just dropping the bomb with little time for people to react and prepare? So much for family within Aloha. As CEO he knew when the call was being made. And if you want a refund, they tell you to take it up with bankruptcy court. What is his severance package? Because Aloha is private, we may never know. More reason I don't support throwing public money into this basket case.
    You're not alone here. The abruptness of it all is a telling story. Financially Aloha airlines had enough working capital for just one more day of service but he decided to pull the plug early. Why? Maybe it's his golden parachute.

    If he knew he had only one day left why did he wait two days before to decide to do what he did. Even if Lingle could have pulled that rabbit out of her magical hat, his bean counters should have known that leniency on the part of the bancruptcy court judge would be virtually non-existant. Where was his contingency plan? If he couldn't forcast a day in advance of their operational status, I can see why Aloha died the way it did. As if he knew Aloha had a finality and played it up all the way to the end.

    He blames the competition but never named go! as the means of Aloha's demise. If that's the case then how did Hawaiian seem to come out smelling like a rose, even adding flights and leasing larger jets?

    Questions questions questions. But in the end I believe it was Banmiller's lack of ability that led Aloha down the trail of disaster. The economy and go! simply prodded Aloha along.

    And it will come to pass that Banmiller was a lousy CEO when all the facts come out. Did you see his reaction to an Aloha Airlines employee's questions? He just brushed her off like a bug on a windshield.
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  2. #77

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Crossposting - with TV memories

    I wonder what Aloha Airlines pilot Tasha Kobashigawa will be doing now?

  3. #78

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by cynsaligia View Post
    hmm. so the legislature is all gung ho to exempt one airline out of three from GET when, should that airline fail, the others can pick up the slack?

    yet the legislature laughs long and hard when a hospital (that serves a patient population that is 70% medicare/medicaid/non paying patients, compared to 50% or less in other hospitals) asks for the same thing? and they wipe away tears of laughter knowing if that hospital fails, the remaining medical organizations cannot make up the several hundred beds that will suddenly disappear, nor will they take over the only ER on the ewa plain?
    Silly girl, how much have the hospitals and health care unions been donating to political campaigns?

    Seriously, yeah, that sucks. <sigh> The best government that money can buy.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    Financially Aloha airlines had enough working capital for just one more day of service but he decided to pull the plug early. Why?
    I think the timing has to do with the start of the month. New month = more bills to be paid.


    I'll have to dig just a bit, but I blame the whole thing on Mesa. Why? If you look up the airline's estimated cost for a passenger seat, you'll see that Mesa has the highest costs. But who's been driving the low ticket prices - at a loss? Mesa intended to run Aloha out of business and they've succeeded. They had the deep pockets to do so.

    Granted, Aloha's admins isn't a stunning example of good management. But that all just made Aloha rather then Hawaiian the more venerable one.

    I think if we look back to before Go!'s entry, Hawaiian had no plans to lower the ticket prices to run Aloha out of business. The other factors, like fuel would have affected them both.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    You're not alone here. The abruptness of it all is a telling story. Financially Aloha airlines had enough working capital for just one more day of service but he decided to pull the plug early. Why? Maybe it's his golden parachute.

    If he knew he had only one day left why did he wait two days before to decide to do what he did. Even if Lingle could have pulled that rabbit out of her magical hat, his bean counters should have known that leniency on the part of the bancruptcy court judge would be virtually non-existant. Where was his contingency plan? If he couldn't forcast a day in advance of their operational status, I can see why Aloha died the way it did. As if he knew Aloha had a finality and played it up all the way to the end.

    He blames the competition but never named go! as the means of Aloha's demise. If that's the case then how did Hawaiian seem to come out smelling like a rose, even adding flights and leasing larger jets?

    Questions questions questions. But in the end I believe it was Banmiller's lack of ability that led Aloha down the trail of disaster. The economy and go! simply prodded Aloha along.

    And it will come to pass that Banmiller was a lousy CEO when all the facts come out. Did you see his reaction to an Aloha Airlines employee's questions? He just brushed her off like a bug on a windshield.

    Quoting article:

    David Banmiller, president and chief executive of Aloha, said the airline nearly went under five times during the last three years and that up until Sunday -- the day it announced the shutdown -- he was trying to work a deal to keep the carrier alive.

    But he said that after talking to the CEOs of five airlines and potential hedge-fund investors over a period of months, as well as Lingle and lawmakers two weeks ago, he had exhausted all options. The airline was at a point that it would be unable to financially make it through this week.


    This guy knew how shakey the company was for the last three years and told nothing to his employees. Way to go. Did he even take a paycut as a symbolic gesture during the last three years?

    UBS announced they lost $12 billion dollars today and one of the first things that happened? The CEO resigned. Why did this never happen with Aloha during the last bankruptcy? I think if Aloha had a different CEO three years ago, it wouldn't have to end like this. Come to think of it, every airline Banmiller was in charge all died.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Union labor prices don't help either. Is go! union?
    Which part? Some of their employees are unionized, some are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Come to think of it, every airline Banmiller was in charge all died.
    Not quite - Air Jamaica & Sun Country are still around, and he was part of the turn-around team for the latter, post-bankruptcy.
    Last edited by Leo Lakio; April 1st, 2008 at 06:39 AM.

  7. #82

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    This guy knew how shakey the company was for the last three years and told nothing to his employees. Way to go.
    What would that have accomplished? Wouldn't that just encourage Mesa letting them know just how close they were to their goal? Wasn't part of the game to stay alive hoping that Mesa would bleed too much and bail (or at least raise prices)?

    Also, wouldn't that just scare people away making it a self-fulling prophesy?

  8. #83

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Which part? Some of their employees are unionized, some are not.Not quite - Air Jamaica & Sun Country are still around, and he was part of the turn-around team for the latter, post-bankruptcy.
    Air Jamaica he wasn't CEO and for Sun Country, they actually did close under Banmiller and was later revived by a group of investors.

    Maybe Aloha will get an investor now that it has closed it's pax portion. Who knows, but it sure seems Banmiller is really good at shutting down airlines rather than growing them.

  9. #84
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    Lightbulb Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    Thank God Hawaiian has a decent air cargo set up. When I worked for the Gas Company, I preferred Hawaiian's air cargo facility at HNL. I used to ship out so much stuff, the guys there gave me the shipping forms (had to sign out for the number series) and the colored island destination tags so I could fill out the forms and tag the parcels ahead of time.
    This is the first I have heard of a “facility.” My understanding is that Pacific Wings is the next best thing to Aloha Air Cargo, and they are very humbug. Isn’t Hawaiian’s cargo division only “counter-to-counter” (limited hours/days, slow turnaround time, no accounts kept so must pay cash, etc.)? The point of shipping something via plane is timeliness. Otherwise, you can ship via boat, U.S. Mail/UPS/DHL/FedEX, etc. Aloha Air Cargo is the only outfit I know of that can get something from island to island on a Saturday within an hour or two after being shipped.

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  10. #85

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Air Jamaica he wasn't CEO and for Sun Country, they actually did close under Banmiller and was later revived by a group of investors.
    He was COO at Air Jamaica, certainly a big part of the leadership team.

    At Sun Country, he became CEO in Sep. 2001, when the family that owned the airline put it up for sale. No investors were found (you may recall that the economy in the US was a bit rattled in Sep. 2001 by a little event that had a dramatic effect on all airlines) and they filed for bankruptcy in Dec. 2001, under pressure from creditors.

    Investors came on board in Feb. 2002, and he left the airline in May 2002. You can't really say "the airline he was in charge of died" in this case; filing for bankruptcy doesn't accurately fit that description, especially since he was instrumental in finding new buyers.

    But my point is that saying:
    every airline Banmiller was in charge all died
    is an over-simplification. It's all semantics, though, and I get your point - his track record ain't exactly golden.
    Last edited by Leo Lakio; April 1st, 2008 at 08:01 AM.

  11. #86

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    But my point is that saying:is an over-simplification. It's all semantics, though, and I get your point - his track record ain't exactly golden.
    I stand corrected on some of the details but yes, just seems like he's the grim reaper of airlines.

  12. #87
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    This is the first I have heard of a “facility.” My understanding is that Pacific Wings is the next best thing to Aloha Air Cargo, and they are very humbug. Isn’t Hawaiian’s cargo division only “counter-to-counter” (limited hours/days, slow turnaround time, no accounts kept so must pay cash, etc.)? The point of shipping something via plane is timeliness. Otherwise, you can ship via boat, U.S. Mail/UPS/DHL/FedEX, etc. Aloha Air Cargo is the only outfit I know of that can get something from island to island on a Saturday within an hour or two after being shipped.
    Hawaiian Air Cargo has a Jet Express which allowed "next flight availabilty" status on outbound goods from pouch to pallatized material.

    Once I had to Jet Express 50 commercial sized gas meters to Hilo from Honolulu. Basically five full pallets, five feet high on the next available flight out. I brought everything down by 10:30am, and it was received in Hilo by 12:30 that afternoon and that included drop off to the cargo facility to receiving in The Gas Company's warehouse in Hilo.

    I've had items delivered to Hawaiian Air Cargo and by the time I got back to the the shop to call Hilo to confirm the outbound shipment, Joe at the Hilo warehouse tells me he got it already (damned traffic from the Airport to Kakaako). HAL beat me.

    Hawaiian does keep accounts. But they won't accept walk in cargo. You must have a standing P.O. with them (ever since 9-11).

    Granted Aloha did weekend cargo service, however when I had a farm business here in Hilo delivering live plant material to points all over Oahu and the mainland, I relied on FedEx. They have a mutual agreement here in Hilo with some of the growers co-ops to deliver at a discount door to door.
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  13. #88
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Did any of you see that most recent post from TalkStink?

    I clicked on that go! link. Now I have to wash my eyes out and say the Rosary. Shoulda known NSFW really meant NSFW!
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    Tessie, you are the only only only

  14. #89
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    so, i received a letter from fhb regarding their upgrading clients' credit cards to the priority card. my understanding is that the accrued mileage from aloha, or points, will not transfer over to the new card. but, when your first purchase is made, you will get 10000 points immediately--good enough for one interisland round-trip ticket.
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  15. #90
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    So here we go Banmiller is blaming go! for up to $75M in losses but more than $70M from rising fuel costs.

    Coming out of bancruptcy three years ago, Aloha was slated to bring in $25M in revenue.

    So even if go! hadn't entered the local airline market, they would still have folded because of the rising fuel costs alone.

    From today's Star Bulletin:

    Banmiller said Mesa's below-cost pricing "was a clear attempt to destroy this company."

    "That has cost this company $60 (million) to $75 million annually, and we proposed making $25 million when we came out of bankruptcy (in February 2006)," he said.

    Banmiller also said that because of soaring oil prices, the airline now has an additional $71 million in annual fuel expenses that it did not have two years ago when it emerged from its first bankruptcy.

    Aloha attorney Paul Singerman told Judge King that Aloha had lost $125 million since its first bankruptcy in February 2006 and lost money every month in 2007, en route to $81 million in losses for the year. He said Aloha had $1.7 million in cash as of yesterday and that it costs $1.5 million a day to operate the airline.


    Aloha would've gone broke with or without go! So what happens to the remaining assets? How much is Banmiller going to get as his exit fee?

    Remember it wasn't only go! that reduced their rates, Hawaiian did as well with bigger jets. Talk about fuel costs, Hawaiian managed to come out pretty good, why couldn't Aloha? It all comes down to bad management and Banmiller's past performance IS indicative of that.

    Bottom line, Hawaiian did good, Banmiller F*CKED UP.
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  16. #91

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Go Airlines is okay, if you don't mind the pilots falling asleep at wheel. You gotta have a strong stomach because sometimes their planes fly upside down.

  17. #92

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    So even if go! hadn't entered the local airline market, they would still have folded because of the rising fuel costs alone.
    Only if it couldn't pass on the costs in the ticket prices. And why couldn't they do that? Hawaiian is also affected by rising fuel costs. They've both raised ticket prices in the past due to rising fuel costs. Hawaiian has no interest in pushing Aloha out of business. It creates too much scrutiny as a monopoly.

    But Go! had no incentive to allow ticket prices to rise. It played right into their plan.

    Go!'s predatory pricing was a deliberate, malicious act. Without them, Aloha would have been been OK. The rising fuel price just helped out Mesa's plans.

  18. #93
    sansei Guest

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    hi this is sansei and i did learn on the internet when you put in yahoo,mesa bankrupted airline's and they did,one in the mainland and this airline's was called Flyir and they was a reputable airline's until mesa which repersent's go air that it bankrupted this good airline company and they went out of business and now they go air thought they could do it to Aloha and now look at aloha and this is all true and when i read this,i contacted Khon to let them know only i know they didnt report it on air so i thought to share this with everyone.

    well thank's for your time

  19. #94
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimo View Post
    Crossposting - with TV memories

    I wonder what Aloha Airlines pilot Tasha Kobashigawa will be doing now?
    i had no idea that she had become a stewardess! a big surprise while watching the news tonight...
    525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

  20. #95

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Tasha was first officer (pilot) on the last Aloha flight - not a "stewardess" - (also known these days as flight attendants)
    Last edited by Kimo; April 2nd, 2008 at 06:20 AM. Reason: (misspelling)

  21. #96

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    Go!'s predatory pricing was a deliberate, malicious act. Without them, Aloha would have been been OK. The rising fuel price just helped out Mesa's plans.
    Aloha went bankrupted even before go! came along and let's not forget, the state helped out Aloha during the 9/11 crisis. So, the root problem is really their management. Just didn't know when to make the right moves.

    On another thought, can anyone still buy the Aloha pax division? What if Mesa bought them? Be cheaper to buy them and drop the lawsuit against themselves than to pay the fine if convicted right?

  22. #97
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    On another thought, can anyone still buy the Aloha pax division? What if Mesa bought them? Be cheaper to buy them and drop the lawsuit against themselves than to pay the fine if convicted right?

    Some firm probably could, but that would mean acquiring the old 737-200s as well as the newer 700s. Go/Mesa does not use the larger Boeing jets, and they would have to hire many of the Aloha pilots to make a go with Aloha's planes. Would be a bad move on Go's part to do that.

    On another note, Hawaiian Airlines is having a hard time finding Boeing 717 jets to expand their interisland fleet since only 156 of the planes were made. From what I read, every airline that owns these are happy with the planes and are not ready to give them up. Hawaiian may and will have to look into changing aircraft for the interisland market with something that is still in production or at least more plentiful in the used market. Boeing 737-700s? 600s? Another jet? Turboprops, Joshuatree?

    Mesa/Go will be at an advantage here on filling their fleet up with CRJs. Apparently they have many of these planes in service and they could easily move more into the market soon. Fact is they probably foresaw this bankrupcty as the 2 additional CRJ-200s they now have in service were brought into the market a few weeks before Aloha shut down.

    Island Air was at the capitol yesterday testifying in support of a bill that would guarantee state backed loans. I am sure they have expansion on their minds too.
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  23. #98

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    Some firm probably could, but that would mean acquiring the old 737-200s as well as the newer 700s. Go/Mesa does not use the larger Boeing jets, and they would have to hire many of the Aloha pilots to make a go with Aloha's planes. Would be a bad move on Go's part to do that.

    On another note, Hawaiian Airlines is having a hard time finding Boeing 717 jets to expand their interisland fleet since only 156 of the planes were made. From what I read, every airline that owns these are happy with the planes and are not ready to give them up. Hawaiian may and will have to look into changing aircraft for the interisland market with something that is still in production or at least more plentiful in the used market. Boeing 737-700s? 600s? Another jet? Turboprops, Joshuatree?

    Mesa/Go will be at an advantage here on filling their fleet up with CRJs. Apparently they have many of these planes in service and they could easily move more into the market soon. Fact is they probably foresaw this bankrupcty as the 2 additional CRJ-200s they now have in service were brought into the market a few weeks before Aloha shut down.

    Island Air was at the capitol yesterday testifying in support of a bill that would guarantee state backed loans. I am sure they have expansion on their minds too.
    Well, even if Mesa bought up the 737-200s and 737-700s, they can resell them out. Besides, I thought most if not all were leased? If they are, you can sublease them out.

    Unless Hawaiian is ready to make a shift in the type of equipment used, I don't see them going for anything else to convolute the one type of craft for interisland. I don't think you can find much used turboprops out there too. They are enjoying the highest number of orders in recent years, no doubt because of the cost of oil. However, you know me, I'm all for Hawaiian in choosing a next gen turboprop for their next interisland craft. It will give them more margin for any more future fuel increases. Also, turboprop pilots make less. I'm not trying to shortchange the current pilots but for any future pilot hires, that's helping the bottom line.

    All of the later 737 models are not suited for the quick and frequent takeoffs. You need to find a plane built for hot and high conditions. The ATR turboprop is definitely built for that.
    Last edited by joshuatree; April 2nd, 2008 at 07:18 AM. Reason: grammatical error

  24. #99
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    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    Yep, I think maybe all of Aloha's planes were leased. So in the end the leasing companies can and will take them back if the passenger division is not sold. I see it as very unlikely that Mesa/Go would buy the passenger service now.

    As for Hawaiian operating turboprops, it is dooable if Hawaiian has the will to change to that. Years ago they operated a dual jet and turboprop fleet (DC-9s and Dash 7s) but went to only jets to "streamline" their operations and costs (at the time) on just using 1 common aircraft on interisland routes. Going to turboprop now would probably increase some of their costs if they decide to go mixed fleet, though in the long run the fuel and labor savings would manifest themselves.

    My thing is that aren't most turboprop pilots younger with less flying hours than jet pilots since they are lower paid? Also I would think an airline using all turboprops would have a more frequent turnover of pilots and possibly other support personnel as they may be working their way up the career ladder to go to jets.
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  25. #100

    Default Re: Aloha Air files bankruptcy, again

    I agree in general, turboprop pilots are younger and working their way up. But right now, Hawaiian has their pickings since there are a bunch of ex-Aloha pilots probably happy for another pilot job that does not require them to leave the state. And with that said, because our market is isolated, you will probably find a core of turboprop pilots happy to stay put because they can live in Hawaii, fly all they want, but never have to be away from home. Like you said, will Hawaiian have that willpower? Also, it seems turboprop makers are seriously considering building larger props at the 100 pax seating size. This is the right sized plane for interisland so another compelling reason to switch to props. Shaving off 5 min on an interisland flight isn't worth it at $100+ a barrel of oil.

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