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Thread: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

  1. #76
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I should just change my name to "Threadstopper."
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  2. #77

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Tim, fwiw, I agree with everything you had said about all sides of the coin and giving candidates a fair shake.

    pax

  3. #78
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    From an AOL poll.

    Who would you choose for president in this head-to-head matchup?
    John McCain 53%
    Barack Obama 40%
    Neither/undecided 7%

    Total Votes: 254,563

    CNN and LA Times say that BO has a double digit lead. This poll says the opposite. What gives?
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  4. #79

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    CNN and LA Times say that BO has a double digit lead. This poll says the opposite. What gives?
    Ummm...Tim? Polls are worthless crap in today's world. Anyone can get polls that represent whatever perspective they want them to reflect. You will also get very disparate responses when you compare "scientific" polls vs. "open" ones.

    Does anyone actually base their real vote on what a poll has said? Unless most people do, there's only one poll that will matter at all - and that doesn't take place until November 4.
    Last edited by Leo Lakio; June 25th, 2008 at 10:54 AM.

  5. #80

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    CNN and LA Times say that BO has a double digit lead. This poll says the opposite. What gives?
    OMG Bradley Effect!

  6. #81
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    Thumbs up Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Barack Obama shocked many critics today, by declaring that he supports the death penalty for individuals who rape children. His opinion goes against the U.S. Supreme Court which ruled that such a penalty is “cruel and unusual punishment” for the rapist.

    I would really like to shake Obama’s hand for dispelling the myth that he is a “left-leaning liberal” in every way! It’s great that he has taken a conservative position on the death penalty, which I think should be used on much more regular basis as a deterrent against crime.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  7. #82

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I'll be voting for BO, but that statement of support for the death penalty, especially in this matter is totally absurd. The court managed to get another one right. What a rarity.

  8. #83

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Ummm...Tim? Polls are worthless crap in today's world.
    It's a tired old cliche for the candidates and their surrogates. "This poll is 5 months away from the election. It's worthless." "Polls are nothing more than a snapshot in time."

    But top-notch pollsters are worth their weight in gold to candidates and the parties. Failing to consider any kind of polling data when it comes to spending/advertising decisions would be disastrous for almost any campaign.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  9. #84
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    Lightbulb Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    I'll be voting for BO, but that statement of support for the death penalty, especially in this matter is totally absurd. The court managed to get another one right.
    I would really like to understand what you find so absurd about Barack Obama’s statement. He’s expressing a reasoned view that in the most heinous of child rape cases, prosecutors should be allowed to seek the death penalty. CBS News does an insightful report that explains why today’s Supreme Court decision is likely to weaken our laws across the board. Sad.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  10. #85

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    He’s expressing a reasoned view that in the most heinous of child rape cases, prosecutors should be allowed to seek the death penalty. CBS News does an insightful report that explains why today’s Supreme Court decision is likely to weaken our laws across the board. Sad.
    Let me pose this question to you. If a 17 year old boy is found guilty of raping a 13 year old girl, should the boy receive a death sentence?
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  11. #86
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    Thumbs down Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    Let me pose this question to you. If a 17 year old boy is found guilty of raping a 13 year old girl, should the boy receive a death sentence?
    It’s impossible to answer the question you pose because you have provided none of the circumstances in your theoretical scenario. In any event, it would be irrelevant in this case (Kennedy vs. Louisiana) because the provision of the Louisiana law the Supreme Court struck down applied only to “children under the age of 13.”

    If you read Obama’s statement, he specifically says the penalty should be available when the victim is “six or eight years old.” The Louisiana case that precipitated this ruling involved Patrick Kennedy, who raped his 8-year-old stepdaughter, then told her to lie about it to police. Investigators only discovered the truth after finding blood in the girl’s bedroom that Kennedy was trying to have removed. This young girl will likely live with feelings of guilt, betrayal, shame, disgust, denial, an extreme hatred for her father, and an inability to trust people — particularly men in authority positions — for the rest of her life. That’s if she doesn’t commit suicide as victims in these types of cases often do.

    If the death penalty is available to prosecutors, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they will seek to use it in every child rape case. Maybe in the scenario you outlined, they might not. Again, it depends on the circumstances. In fact, many states, like Hawai‘i, do not allow the death penalty for any crimes. Of the states with the death penalty, less than a handful extended the penalty to child rape. The frequency of the crime historically has been low, experts say, because of the young victim’s fear of repercussions for reporting the crime, and the belief (often instilled by the perpetrator) that they are somehow to blame. Now that the Supreme Court has come out with very specific language that would seem to limit the death penalty to murder and attempted murder convictions, they’ve sent a very strong message: Child rapists, regardless of how many adolescent teens, young children, toddlers and infants they have assaulted, will always live to see another day.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  12. #87

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    It’s impossible to answer the question you pose because you have provided none of the circumstances in your theoretical scenario.
    Fine. Then just change the age of the girl in my scenario. I ask you again. Should a 17 year old boy receive the death sentence for raping an 11 year old girl?

    And no, I'm not talking about a law whereby every offender in this situation gets the death sentence. Should any state in our country have the option of having a convicted rapist (who happens to be a minor) get a death sentence? Would you personally be okay with a minor being put on death row?

    I'm not here to condemn or condone. I'm just curious what you think.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  13. #88

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I used to support the death penalty, then Illinois discovered that a third of the people sentenced to death in their state were innocent of the charges they'd been convicted on. That is just a totally unsatisfactory failure rate. In Cal. a fellow had served 28 years for raping a child and evidence came up also proving him factually innocent. Think of the person you love most in the world and imagine that happening to him or her. Whoever it happens to is just as much a human being as your beloved. It is absolutely, totally unacceptable.

    Beyond the problem of accuracy, the death penalty pushes the wrong buttons. It says very clearly that settling scores by killing people is OK. If the supreme authority, the state itself, kills people to settle with them, it sets an example of acceptable conduct. The way to show we do not approve of killing people is...to not kill them. It also stimulates that most dangerous animal instinct, blood lust, vengeance, killing for emotional satisfaction. This is why countries and states that do not have the death penalty have lower rates of violent crime than those that do. And finally, isn't the power of life and death just too much power to trust Big Government with? When has absolute power not been abused? Keep that power away from the bureaucrats and grand standing politicians and corrupt judges.

    I admit that the death penalty has its emotional appeal. Thats the problem.

  14. #89

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I don't agree with State sactioned murder.
    Overzealous/corrupt prosecutors, bad evidence and bad cops can set up an innocent person easily, and there's no reversing death.

    Kalalau's post was right on!

  15. #90

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I'm in the same arena as Ron & Kalalau. As I have stated in previous HT threads, I am against state-sanctioned killing in any circumstance, no matter how heinous and horrifying the crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    But top-notch pollsters are worth their weight in gold to candidates and the parties.
    Only because that's the old-school way of gathering data. The dynamic has already changed; people lie comfortably to pollsters, and use of the internet has changed the interaction with polling subjects.

  16. #91
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I, too, am against the death penalty. The reasons Kalalau states are valid, and the "mistake" rate can be high. Perhaps the accusers should be made subject to the same rules such that they are certain not to lie in the courtroom.

    But my main argument against the death penalty goes something like this. Death is a punishment only to those with some sense of religion. Death certainly removes the problem from society, but it cannot possibly be perceived as a punishment by the living, because we really don't have enough information to actually know what happens on the other side. Therefore, death as a crime deterrent is ethereal, or even theoretic, at best. Perhaps nothing happens, and you don't remember it.

    A small hammer, large rock, hot sun, and little to eat or drink would be a good example of a punsishment. So would a cell with Bubba.
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  17. #92
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    When it comes to murder, death penalty could be considered.

    When it comes to rape, I could think of other heinous punishments but our "lawful" society forbids cruel & unusual punishment. The convicted will live but he will wish for a merciful death penalty after the suffering he'll endure for his natural lives.

    I have to take BO's statement with a grain of salt (and salt is bad for me). It plays more on society's emotion than on society's conscience. I think in his case, he spoke as a father. What father would say no to the death penalty when it comes to his own children (unless you're the father of the rapist, not the victim).

  18. #93
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    Lightbulb Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    I ask you again. Should a 17 year old boy receive the death sentence for raping an 11 year old girl?
    As I said before, it is impossible to answer the question you pose, because you have provided none of the circumstances surrounding your theoretical scenario. Let me help you along, since you seem to be having trouble with this request...

    What is the relationship of the boy to the girl? Do the boy and the victim know each other? How? Are/were they boyfriend and girlfriend? Were there other crimes associated with the rape? (i.e. kidnapping, terroristic threatening, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.) What was the verdict on those crimes? Does the boy have a clean record? If not, were his other convictions rape crimes? How did police learn of the rape?

    The answers to these questions are what most investigators would describe as “circumstances.” This is what I had asked you to provide, which would allow me to express an informed opinion on whether or not the prosecutor should be allowed to seek the death penalty. I am assuming that your theoretical scenario took place in a state that allows such punishment for such a crime.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  19. #94

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    It doesn't matter what the victim's age, the crime, various circumstances, emotional traumas, or whatever, the fact is that the death penalty is not acceptable behavior if we consider ourselves a decent society. Most all of us would LOVE to dispatch our worst actions upon the worst criminals, but that would make us at least as bad as them.

    And I've never understood wishing that 'they get theirs' while in prison, even tho I've felt it as well. They get their sentence and serve it, and should have the rights and abilities to do so without even the fear of rape, beating, or murder. This hasn't been the case for virtually all of US incareration history, and the penal system is way out of wack. Unfortunately, the courts get it wrong in both directions all to often, maybe usually, but it's up to us to get it corrected, and it don't look like that will happen in my lifetime.

  20. #95
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I used to believe in the death penalty. I just have a problem when coming face to face with it. The movie, Dead Man Walking, with Sean Penn, bothered me for days.

    I can say that I agree to "other" punishments for some even lesser crimes. I have gone so far as to say neutering without anesthetics on the way to prison. (Sorry gents -- don't wince, I would probably recant after chilling out a little.)

    However, I agree with the other person who said Obama was talking like a father. If I were a parent in such a situation, I don't know if I would ever find the strength of character to want anything less than torturous pain for the perpetrator. Maternal instincts are strong even when you don't have any of your own. We can try to be forgiving, but not when you hurt our babies!
    Aloha,
    Evelyn
    Homespun Honolulu

  21. #96
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprite View Post
    I can say that I agree to "other" punishments for some even lesser crimes. I have gone so far as to say neutering without anesthetics on the way to prison. (Sorry gents -- don't wince, I would probably recant after chilling out a little.)
    Meh. We may have instinctively crossed our legs but if the guy deserves it, he deserves to lose his manhood for acting less of a man to the opposite sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprite View Post
    However, I agree with the other person who said Obama was talking like a father. If I were a parent in such a situation, I don't know if I would ever find the strength of character to want anything less than torturous pain for the perpetrator. Maternal instincts are strong even when you don't have any of your own. We can try to be forgiving, but not when you hurt our babies!
    Not to get all preachy, but that is where the true power of forgiveness lie. To forgive someone who doesn't deserve it, even a sadistic rapist. It's a friggin' paradox.

    Then again, we're all imperfect humans...

  22. #97
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    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Point taken, Random. It's hard to forgive sometimes. "Forgiveness is Divine!" It is what we should aim for. Sigh.

    For the record, I wasn't referring to rape when I said "lesser" crime. I don't think rape is a 'lesser" crime but I'm also not a woman who cries wolf and sexual harassment at the drop of a hat. Definitely a case by case kind of thing!

    Thanks for being preachy (even though you weren't)... it's refreshing and heart warming!

    Hugs!
    Aloha,
    Evelyn
    Homespun Honolulu

  23. #98

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    As I said before, it is impossible to answer the question you pose, because you have provided none of the circumstances surrounding your theoretical scenario. Let me help you along, since you seem to be having trouble with this request...
    You think I'm having some sort of "trouble" in this thread. Actually no. I'm trying to lead up to another question here, which we will get to in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    What is the relationship of the boy to the girl? Do the boy and the victim know each other? How? Are/were they boyfriend and girlfriend? Were there other crimes associated with the rape? (i.e. kidnapping, terroristic threatening, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.) What was the verdict on those crimes? Does the boy have a clean record? If not, were his other convictions rape crimes? How did police learn of the rape?

    The answers to these questions are what most investigators would describe as “circumstances.” This is what I had asked you to provide, which would allow me to express an informed opinion on whether or not the prosecutor should be allowed to seek the death penalty. I am assuming that your theoretical scenario took place in a state that allows such punishment for such a crime.
    All very reasonable-sounding points you make. Lots of circumstances to consider.

    Now let me ask you this. Are you saying that, under all the proper circumstances, a minor who is convicted of child rape should be subject to the possibility of receiving a death sentence? If so, then let me also ask you this.

    Do you think that the possibility for a minor being put on death row for committing child rape should exist when at this point, there is currently no law existing for a minor to receive capital punishment for murder, under any circumstances?

    Just my opinion, but that doesn't make any sense.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

  24. #99
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    Lightbulb Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    let me ask you this. Are you saying that, under all the proper circumstances, a minor who is convicted of child rape should be subject to the possibility of receiving a death sentence?
    That would depend on what your definition of a minor is. Let’s take your 17 year-old, for example. What if he turned 18 the day authorities caught him, but he hadn’t touched the 11-year-old girl that day? What if the girl didn’t know him? What if he bashed her head in with a baseball bat in order to kidnap her and chained her in the basement of an abandoned home? What if he forcibly raped and sodomized her five times a day for a period of 16 weeks, tortured her, and barely fed her until she had third-degree burns and was near death before authorities finally found him? What if had already served time in juvenile detention for rape, had raped in inmate while in juvie, was released and was already wanted for violating parole?

    Here in Hawai‘i, we have already tried several minors as adults, due to the heinousness of the crimes they committed. We also have two minors (one who raped another inmate in juvenile detention) on trial for murder of a good samaritan in Waikīkī. The victim was only trying to help another man that the pair were allegedly beating the crap out of when he tried to stop them from allegedly robbing his companion.

    So to answer your question, if, and only if, we’re talking about the minor in the scenario I have outlined for you, then yes, I would favor allowing the prosecutor to seek the death penalty in a jurisdiction that allowed it, because the prosecutor can try this individual as an adult, should the judge in the case grant a motion to do so.

    We need to start putting a value on public safety, which isn’t served by giving the most vile criminals three hots and a cot and medical care at taxpayer’s expense.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  25. #100

    Default Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    This has taken a very non-Presidential spin*, hasn't it?




    (* = see thread title)

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