Da' Pidgin English Thread

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Certainly helpful? Well, calling it a pidgin is helpful if it is a pidgin, but it's not helpful if it's not a pidgin -- then it is just misleading. I don't think it is a pidgin, as I said.
(...)
Generally, I love Wikipedia, but this article is substandard.

Thanks again for your opinion.

It's helpful to non-scholars. E.G., "What language is THAT?!" Do we say "English," or "Pidgin?"

I think you chose one example that was a poor one, others were more spot-on:

Generally, forms of English "to be" (i.e. the copula) are omitted when referring to inherent qualities of an object or person, forming in essence a stative verb form. Additionally, inverted sentence order may be used for emphasis. (Many East Asian languages use stative verbs instead of the copula-adjective construction of English and other Western languages.)
Da baby cute. (or) Cute, da baby.The baby is cute.Note that these constructions also mimic the grammar of the Hawaiian language. In Hawaiian, "nani ka pēpē" or "kiuke ka pēpē" is literally "cute, the baby" and is perfectly correct Hawaiian grammar meaning in English: "The baby is cute."

With the exception that "pēpē" is of post-contact construction from the English; kama or just keiki are both aboriginal Hawaiian.

Wikipedia is an imperfect medium, and I generally try to find better references, but this was convenient. Although I got my B.A. in English, that was in 1978, and I've forgotten more than I've remembered, so I'm not qualified to judge the accuracy of the article.

You seem very knowledgeable on English grammar and categorization (with some interesting biases). What is your level of education, and where did you study?

[GregLee]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

You seem very knowledgeable on English grammar and categorization (with some interesting biases). What is your level of education, and where did you study?

I got an MA and PhD in linguistics from Ohio State, then taught linguistics for 40 years, mostly at UH, specializing in English phonology and grammar. I advised two dissertations on Hawaiian English/Creole (Carol Odo and Dick Day) and was on the dissertation committees for several others. (Dick Day's dissertation, by the way, dealt with the omission of the copula in HE -- I don't recall that it is omitted only for statives, though statives may favor it's deletion.)

[Pohaku]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Garans ball barans. LOL! That's going a-ways back. Andy Bumatai used that phrase during his stand-up routine on his 1978 TV special, "Andy Bumatai's High School Daze." In fact, if you watch that show now, you'll hear quite bit of pidgin that has kind of gone by the wayside in recent years.

Heh, we still said "garans" in high school in the 90s, but maybe we just lagged behind you Oahu people or wait, maybe all the other kids meant it ironically and I just didn't get it! I could made a fortune with t-shirts...

When was the last time you ever heard a kid saying "Hana Okolele!" to another kid who did something bad?

Hah! You took me right back to Haiku school in the 80s.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

I got an MA and PhD in linguistics from Ohio State, then taught linguistics for 40 years, mostly at UH, specializing in English phonology and grammar. I advised two dissertations on Hawaiian English/Creole (Carol Odo and Dick Day) and was on the dissertation committees for several others. (Dick Day's dissertation, by the way, dealt with the omission of the copula in HE -- I don't recall that it is omitted only for statives, though statives may favor it's deletion.)

Outstanding! Glad to have you aboard.
It seems as if this is a science that is still evolving, and we are fortunate to have your perspective.

[dakamaainahaole]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Certainly helpful? Well, calling it a pidgin is helpful if it is a pidgin, but it's not helpful if it's not a pidgin -- then it is just misleading. I don't think it is a pidgin, as I said.

Thanks for the reference -- I hadn't seen this. But I don't think the reasoning is terribly impressive. Consider, for example, this (taken from the Wikipedia article), which purports to show that there are grammatical differences between Hawaiian English and Standard English:

So, to demonstrate this supposed grammatical difference, the Wikipedia author points out that HE uses auxiliary verbs (rather than inflections) to express tense. Hey, here's some hot news: Standard English expresses the future tense with "will", which is an auxiliary verb, and can optionally use an auxiliary "did" to express the past tense (and that is obligatory in yes-no questions). Then, in the following example with "goin(g)", the HE and SE grammatical constructions are clearly exactly parallel, and neither involves an auxiliary verb. ("Going" is not an auxiliary because it cannot be inverted with the subject to form a yes-no question, which is a defining property of English auxiliaries.)

Generally, I love Wikipedia, but this article is substandard.

Apologies but too many smart words for me, too much to think about, Pidgin nowadays to me is all about "keepin it local" as in "chill mode, islander style"... after all, islanders (especially from Hawaii) pride themselves on how chill they are (ie. drivin slow w/ no rush, stayin on "Hawaiian time", etc.

[dakamaainahaole]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Kay den' gangee, dis' da 'chred fo' speak pidgin, da' kine, laddat. Waianae style. Waimanalo style. Kalihi style. Anykine style. Buss' 'em out, cuz!

Wala'au da' kine peegin' terminologies-ist-ist-ist, oa' unusual slangs. Any subjecks. Wheah da' stuff came from. Anykine whatevahz. Stuffs, laddat. No scade!

But you gotta' speak Pidgin English in this thread. Laddat. lol

"Wop yo' jawz"

holy makeh flick on da ahhh (mom would say it wen she wen get pissed, i think it means holy s**t??), no ack! garans ball barans i almost get one mempachi eye afta try fo read dis awwready. ssssssss, you almost make da original tread li dat!

Oh ya, whas da Pepper boys dem sayin on their "point and shoot" from da "No Shame" album sayin at da beginnin? Big island kine or wat?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Apologies but too many smart words for me, too much to think about, Pidgin nowadays to me is all about "keepin it local" as in "chill mode, islander style"... after all, islanders (especially from Hawaii) pride themselves on how chill they are (ie. drivin slow w/ no rush, stayin on "Hawaiian time", etc.

'Scuse! But den what these mokes what give da finga den cut off da aloha drivah? An' den blow da horn, make worse!

No mo' aloha in O`ahu, for sure. (Excep in Waimanalo, plently aloha deah.)

(Aaaholeization) However, this thread is about pidgin as language, not attitude. Kay den?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

I got an MA and PhD in linguistics from Ohio State, then taught linguistics for 40 years, mostly at UH, specializing in English phonology and grammar. I advised two dissertations on Hawaiian English/Creole (Carol Odo and Dick Day) and was on the dissertation committees for several others. (Dick Day's dissertation, by the way, dealt with the omission of the copula in HE -- I don't recall that it is omitted only for statives, though statives may favor it's deletion.)

Cool, bruddah. But den most da kine here no hemo da "specialized terminology" what you say.

Your choice: Talk to everyone with dumbed-down terms, or talk over their heads with 'professor speak.' Even I have to look up 3/4 of your references to understand them. I still think you are a valuable contribution to HT; you decide who you want to reach.

K

[GregLee]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Your choice: Talk to everyone with dumbed-down terms, or talk over their heads with 'professor speak.' Even I have to look up 3/4 of your references to understand them.

My references? You're the one who referred to the Wikipedia article claiming to describe grammatical peculiarities of Hawaiian Creole, using terms like tense, auxiliary, stative, copula. Why is it my fault for using traditional grammatical terms? I was just commenting on the article you recommended to us, which used those terms.

[dakamaainahaole]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

(Aaaholeization) However, this thread is about pidgin as language, not attitude. Kay den?

Ho brah, you chargin with da swithfoot. da thread fo wala'au in da kine pidgin, see da first kine. not fo talk story on who has references and credentials... ass why i say da kine too smart fo me... right now, we go proper kine bumbye. no disrespect, jus my $.02

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

My references? You're the one who referred to the Wikipedia article claiming to describe grammatical peculiarities of Hawaiian Creole, using terms like tense, auxiliary, stative, copula. Why is it my fault for using traditional grammatical terms? I was just commenting on the article you recommended to us, which used those terms.

Fault? No fault on your part, it's just that many of us won't understand everything. Our fault for not looking them up or being more educated, I guess.
I'm NOT on the attack here, Greg. I'm just saying that with your extensive knowledge of English grammar and the professional terms used to describe it, you leave many of us in the dust.

I didn't even understand everything in the Wikipedia article. I often don't understand everything you say - those are the references to which I was referring, I think.

No need to be over-sensitive. I meant no harm, no slight, no blame. OK?

[dakamaainahaole]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Ho! Pau awready, shaka brah.... shaka... no worries ya?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Sorry Bra. I just wrote a long involved eason fir you to make one communiy group, bu da computer went m,ake one me and I lost all my elegant arguments.

Too tired and no memory to recreate 'em, so you decide.

I thin k it would be a goiod thing, and if not you can always ditch 'em.

[D'Alani]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

I nea catch nuttin u wen rite.

[Honoruru]

Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

Am I the only one who thinks pidgin should be spoken, not written?