2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

[amagab]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

You can have whatever opinion you want about the candidates. All three of them have their reputation and/or career at stake.

I only have 2 questions:

Can the city afford it?
Is rail such a high priority that the enormous cost is justified?

I would answer no to both. The city can definitely not afford it. Remember, the city's tax revenue has been going down while the operational budget is increasing. Rail is luxury, not a necessity!

There are other more pressing issues facing the city, such as trash and sewage, that do not come close to costing as much as rail.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to take a train but I can't see any justification for it when there are more important issues.

As you can see from my signature, I'm big on fiscal responsibility.......unfortunately, no one cares about that anymore.

[TuNnL]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

The mayor easily debunks Panos’ flawed logic by pointing out that not only is The Boat a pilot project subsidized by the feds to the tune of $4 million ... 360 people are riding it daily — an increase from just a month ago. Hannemann further explains that like all “pilot projects,” it will be evaluated for effectiveness after the one-year test-run.

Hasn't it been 12 months already? Shouldn't they be evaluating it by now?

According to KHNL News8, The Boat commenced service September 17th (my brother’s birthday! wuu2!!! ), so not yet, but they should be evaluating it shortly.

[amagab]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

According to KHNL News8, The Boat commenced service September 17th (my brother’s birthday! wuu2!!! ), so not yet, but they should be evaluating it shortly.

Lucky Mufi it won't be evaluated before the election.

[Kimo]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

The election, of course, is the ultimate evaluation. And actually, via HT, letters to the editor, and in multiple other ways, the evaluations occur many times a day.

[amagab]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

The election, of course, is the ultimate evaluation. And actually, via HT, letters to the editor, and in multiple other ways, the evaluations occur many times a day.

So you are saying that the 360 or so people that ride The Boat are going to decide the election? I'm sure they or the rest of the island don't known how much it costs or whether it has helped the traffic congestion or not.

[joshuatree]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

So you are saying that the 360 or so people that ride The Boat are going to decide the election? I'm sure they or the rest of the island don't known how much it costs or whether it has helped the traffic congestion or not.

I think the statement was referring to the general election.

[salmoned]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

TuNnl, no matter how many 'informational meetings' Mufi has held, he never had any intention of promoting a vote on the issue, so the comment remains true and correct. Those informational meetings were designed to inform the public as to the current state of what he considered a foregone decision (rail is coming, like it or not, folks). If you only focus on the first half of my statement, you might have a point, but when viewed in the entirety, it stands as is. I'm astounded at how you can focus on one word or phrase and disregard/miscomprehend the meaning of any given comment.

As for Mufi's ads, they are as biased as the Carpenter's Union ads. Rail will not 'get cars off the road', though it may (or may not) encourage some drivers to switch (I'd like to see the basis for the estimates of how many drivers may switch, as they represent 5X to 10X+ actual results elsewhere). Rail opponents are not monolithically FOR more cars or car lanes, just as rail supporters are not monolithically FOR a 'steel on steel' rail system. That ad you linked was pure propaganda, not information.

bf334, I suppose you mean 'one issue' candidate, since every candidate has only one platform (body of principles). Panos addressed every issue he was questioned upon in a consistent and coherent manner. That his 'spit and polish' wasn't equal to Mufi and Ann's I wouldn't argue, but I measure the results of the debate on content, not appearance. Panos represents a change in city governance I find desirable. That one issue dominated the debate can not be denied, since that issue is paramount in this election - it defines the differences between the candidates.

[Random]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

So, what should the Carpenter's Union focus on, assuming you have no animosity toward carpenters and contractors?

[salmoned]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

The Carpenter's Union should do whatever it wishes within the confines of the law - I'm not suggesting anything else. That they have a heavily vested interest in building a rail transit system cannot be denied, however. Their interest in this issue lies in their own gain (as a union and it's membership) in building the system, without concern for any potential benefit or detriment to the community as a whole in paying for and/or using the system. They intend to profit AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE during construction and future repair/maintenance/expansion, recouping many multiples of their investment in ads to support rail. Their ads should be viewed with that overriding vested interest in mind. I have no animosity towards carpenters or contractors or the Carpenter's Union - it is clearly stated who paid for those ads and no one need ask why, because the self-interest is self-evident.

[TuNnL]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

Why would anyone support The Boat, even as a pilot project that is federally funded? Waste is waste, whether it is federally funded, locally funded or privately funded.

Mainly because this is generally how a concept is tested for efficiency, popularity, and effectiveness in relieving the problem that it is purported to address. You call it waste, but that is a judgement call based purely on dollar signs. 87-octane unleaded gasoline is far cheaper than diesel, but if your vehicle requires diesel fuel — which one do you use?

[amagab]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

Mainly because this is generally how a concept is tested for efficiency, popularity, and effectiveness in relieving the problem that it is purported to address. You call it waste, but that is a judgement call based purely on dollar signs. 87-octane unleaded gasoline is far cheaper than diesel, but if your vehicle requires diesel fuel — which one do you use?

Not really! If the riders of The Boat were previously riders of The Bus then it's not only a matter of dollar waste but also more pollution and no solution to the traffic congestion. For The Boat to even make the slightest sense the riders must all be previous single-occupancy-vehicle drivers. Same goes for The Train ..... it doesn't make sense to build it if the riders will be people who otherwise usually take the bus.

You can't compare cost of gas and diesel because you get much better mileage in a diesel vehicle. But the gas/diesel/ethanol issue should have its own thread because there is so much to say on both the pros and cons of those fuels.

[TuNnL]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

I'm astounded at how you can focus on one word or phrase and disregard/miscomprehend the meaning of any given comment.

Funny, this reminds me of what several HT members accuse you of doing in nearly every thread you participate in. (I’m assuming that’s why Nords has publicly announced you are being ignored) Anyway, I’m glad you finally got a taste of your own medicine. Maybe you can explain this one:

as it is, a vote can only reflect the ignorance of the voters and not their informed approval ... In my opinion, the Stop Rail Now people are heroes for advocating a vote on the issue

So let me get this straight: A vote can only reflect the ignorance of the voters, and not their informed approval, yet the Stop Rail Now group are “heroes” for advocating that vote? How so?

[Geebz]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

Here's an eye opening view of how the debate for the Honolulu Mayors seat went down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_QbI-OrcpE

Aloha.....

[salmoned]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

I didn't find the IV view (in the link above) enlightening - he doesn't seem to realize that if the rail transit project proceeds, it will be the 'most important issue' for at least the next 10 years by reason of shear cost alone. Every other issue will necessarily pale in comparison, due to the expense and disruption of pursuing the rail project. Of course, were the rail project derailed, other issues would naturally stand in the forefront in importance. Whining about 'no internet presence' is just whining. The information the candidates have provided concerning their positions on various issues IS inadequate, but that isn't anything new or remarkable in Hawaii or anywhere else in the nation.

TuNnL, you've once again obviously misunderstood or assumed beyond your ken concerning the links you cite. I don't believe you have any proper ability or standing to pretend to speak for anyone other than yourself. Neither of your links address my disregard/misunderstanding of the comments of others. Quite the contrary, those links reflect the disregard/misunderstanding of MY comments BY others, indicating THEY share some of YOUR shortcomings. If you believe that disagreeing with me (and agreeing with others) proves I'm wrong, you're strayed farther than I thought.

My quote stating that a vote now on the rail transit project can't reflect informed approval reflects the fact that we have yet to receive adequate information concerning that project to make an informed decision, the Alternative Analysis notwithstanding. The Stop Rail Now folks have been the most significant force behind getting the rail project question on the ballot and I find that effort a heroic push for what should have been the obviously proper and correct course of action for the mayor and city council from the start. I stated as much in the comment which led to your question, so why ask for a repetition?

[Geebz]

Re: 2008 Honolulu Mayoral Debate

IMO, In about 2 months, the rail issue will pale in comparison to what is about to happen to Hawaii's total principal economic sector (tourism). Not only will we have a more than predicted state wide holiday decline in tourism, but a parallel in-state decrease in retail purchase by our citizens.

At that point many people will start to lose jobs and there will be an unfortunate decrease in traffic that everyone is fighting over. From there depending on the global recovery from today's stocks crash and ensuing tidal wave of "bailout" fear, we might even see a decrease in our population due to the loss of jobs (brain drain & blue collar moving to the mainland).

So to me, rail is not so much a transportation issue than an economic issue by keeping thousands building/working on the rail and supporting infrastructure.