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Thread: Bad day on the sandbar

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    After his stressful day (actually stressful past few days, poor guy), @JPhilipson has written a blog entry about trying to save people's valuables from the floundering boat:

    http://insidejoeshead.com/2009/01/11...ll-aquadelica/


    According to Joe, the boat's owner is Lorenz Sell, CEO of Blue Lava Technologies in Hawaii. (I guess people can verify that by looking up some public records on the boat owner?)

    I'm guessing that company is related to Blue Lava Wireless, whose claim to fame was owning the licensing rights to Tetris on wireless devices (cellphones and such). BLW got acquired by Jamdat for $137M. Some time later, Electronic Arts (the Microsoft of game publishers) acquired Jamdat for $680M.
    Last edited by MyopicJoe; January 11th, 2009 at 01:04 AM.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    I wonder if the vessel in question might have been more appropriately named, AQUAIDIOT. I hope he gets charged for the "rescue."
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  3. #28
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    If a boater is rude to others, why do they still help him get unstuck and such? Is it part of boating etiquette?

    Or did he pay to get towed off the sand bar?
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    I'm a Captain, and used to work full time in the boating industry. Sorry to see such a beautiful boat destroyed by a nitwit, who is a danger to others. Seen it a dozen times before here in Kona. I often wonder if Lika and I sailed together on some pirate ship in a past life.

    All that being said, I would like to add some postive comments to this thread, addressed to folks who may not do much boating.

    First of all, there is no shame in asking the owner, upon boarding, where the PFD's are located.
    If you are on a sailboat, and the owner is motoring out of the channel without the mainsail up, on motor only, there is a 100% chance that you are sailing with a novice skipper.
    Channel 16 is a useful channel on the VHF.
    Never be ashamed to ask if the bilge plug is screwed in and tightened.
    In the event of a capsize, stay with the wreckage. Eddie would go, but he should have stayed.
    I bring my shorty fins in my backpack when boating with somebody I don't know.
    It's always prudent to shorten sail the moment you think you should. The wisest captains do that chore while safely inside the harbor. Most boats actually go faster, in good wind, with less sail.
    If you think too many people are boarding the boat, say something, and choose not to go.

    The ocean is a harsh task master. Under adverse circumstances, happy endings are few. Aquadelica can be salvaged, and likely fixed. Her owner, probably not.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    There is an unobtrusive link to this HT thread!

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    All that being said, I would like to add some postive comments to this thread, addressed to folks who may not do much boating.
    Thanks for the tips and insights for us non-boaters. I'm glad I didn't need to get dunked to learn it.


    Quote Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
    There is an unobtrusive link to this HT thread!
    A link out which links back to this thread, oh noes! I can hear the fabric of the time space continuum ripping (I'm using my best Star Trek voice here). The universe is gonna asplode!


    It's interesting to see info flow between the HT and Twitter world.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  7. #32

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    I don't often agree with TimKona, but his boating/sailing advice here is all true. Listen up!
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  8. #33
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    If you are on a sailboat, and the owner is motoring out of the channel without the mainsail up, on motor only, there is a 100% chance that you are sailing with a novice skipper..
    Not true, TK. I don't even want to bother providing scenarios in which this practice would be perfectly acceptable, plus other scenarios where it would be the best choice possible. Try to avoid making generalizations when talking about sailing, please, because each outing is different.
    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    I hadn't heard anything about it until I found this thread just now, so I don't know what happed to cause this... but I sure do know that boat.
    And I have a lot to say about it.
    If anyone is a friend of the owner, then prepare to get mad at me.
    I'm not mad, Lika, but Lorenz Sell seems to be a pretty familiar name with the local high-tech and angel-investing communities. I'd also speculate that a CEO's ability to attract business and investors rests on his reputation-- good or bad. On a small island.

    Others (like JPhilipson) have indicated that Lorenz was at the helm. Are you able to say whether or not he's the one behaving in the manner you describe? I can't pick him out from the video or photo links, and I don't know if those left-arm tattoos are his...
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  10. #35
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Menehune Man View Post
    And thanks Likanui for the truthful expression of how some 'BOATERS'(?) act.
    Heh. Did you know that the original meaning of the word "boater" was a straw hat, about a century ago? Whenever I see/hear that word now it makes me think of a straw hat. (Kinda like the chuckle I get whenever I see/hear "hot water heater." That's from the department of redundancy department. Why would you need to heat water that is already hot? It's just a "water heater." But I digress.)

    There are truly too many that are unsafe to themselves and others.
    So very true. One incident I'll never forget was being first responder where an 8-year-old girl had been swimming next to her parents boat anchored in a secluded cove, and an idiot in a small boat ran right over the child. The propeller blades cut her up very badly. Fortunately she survived. That was probably the incident that gave me my zero tolerance for idiots on the water.
    In all my years on the water, I get a 'warm fuzzy' from knowing that I saved a total of six people from certain death in four separate incidents. (Five adults and a 3-month-old baby.) Three of the six were idiots who put themselves into a mess, and the other three were innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control.
    But I digress again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    A news report on KGMB said there were 40 people aboard that boat. Is that right??
    I didn't see KGMB last night, and there's nothing I could find on their website. However, that blog entry by JPhilipson says there were "about 30 people" aboard. Assuming that's true, that's waaaay beyond the capacity certified by the manufacturer, and will easily give an out to the insurance company, if they even had insurance. (It's a shocking fact that our state harbors do not require slip tenants to carry insurance. I've been fortunate to have sailed in many places on this globe, and even third-world countries usually require insurance! But since Hawaii doesn't, any time a boat sinks in a harbor here it's you the taxpayer who have to pay for it.)

    Isn't there a bilge flooding alarm? Multiple bilge pumps? Manual bilge pump?
    In order: probably, yes, and maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    After his stressful day (actually stressful past few days, poor guy), @JPhilipson has written a blog entry about trying to save people's valuables from the floundering boat: http://insidejoeshead.com/2009/01/11...ll-aquadelica/.
    Complete with a link to this thread. I'd still like more information, such as how long they'd been at the sandbar before he noticed the boat sinking, etc.

    According to Joe, the boat's owner is Lorenz Sell, CEO of Blue Lava Technologies in Hawaii.
    Hmmmm. Okay, what I'm gonna say here is an important disclaimer: The idiot I talked about in my earlier posts was not the original owner of the boat, he was a partner in it. Then the original owner sold his interest to the idiot, and then the idiot ran several ads on Craigslist to find another partner. I don't recall the idiot's name but he was French, I believe, and supposedly was a part-owner of some nightclub or something. Given all that, Lorenz Sell may or may not be the "idiot." He may be a relatively innocent partner of the idiot, or he may have bought the boat outright from the idiot, or he may indeed be the idiot.
    OKAY. WAIT.
    I just called and spoke to the original owner, and without going back through his file he recalls that the idiot was named Lorenz or Laurent.
    The orignal owner has a new boat, and as luck would have it he was also at the sandbar yesterday and saw the whole thing. And remember in my first post when I said that I expected all the sandbar regulars would be cheering? Well, I was right. Not just the original owner, but all the other boats out there were cheering. They were telling stories to each other of all the problems they'd each had with Aquadelica, including a most recent incident New Year's Eve.
    Some folks on some of the other boats report that almost everyone on Aquadelica reeked of alcohol. No surprise there. In that video, you can see that almost everyone near the boat and even some of those unloading it are still drinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    I wonder if the vessel in question might have been more appropriately named, AQUAIDIOT.
    Heh. When the idiot bought into the boat, its name was "Serenity."

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    If a boater is rude to others, why do they still help him get unstuck and such? Is it part of boating etiquette?
    Yes. The law of the sea is to always help another boater in distress. Even if they're idiots.

    Or did he pay to get towed off the sand bar?
    As far as I know the boat is still out there. To salvage it, they'll likely have to attach several large inflatable floats to a sling going under the hull, inflate them, then pump out the water as the hull starts to rise. But first they'll have to try to find the source of the leak and solve that, or else the boat will just sink again, obviously. This will be a long and very very expensive project.
    I was thinking about taking my own boat out today to check out the situation there, but I'm doing projects around the house. Maybe I'll go one day this week if Aquadelica is still there.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  11. #36

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    After his stressful day (actually stressful past few days, poor guy), @JPhilipson has written a blog entry about trying to save people's valuables from the floundering boat:

    http://insidejoeshead.com/2009/01/11...ll-aquadelica/
    Not just any music but a DJ complete with turntables and a sound system.
    Ooooo. While I'm sympathetic to those with trying to save their valuables, my sympathies wain for the organizers of this. If this was a private area, that's cool, but I don't know as the sandbar falls into that category.

    Edit: As of this morning, the boat is mostly level but partially submerged. (Bow and stern are about the same height, but it's listing badly to the right.) Someone was working on it late at night. (Like past 1AM) Salvage or midnight shoppers?

    Edit2: The hull may be salvageable. There's no obvious damage, but it depends on what sunk her. As for anything on board, if it can't withstand being submerged, It's probably toast.
    Last edited by GeckoGeek; January 11th, 2009 at 09:16 AM.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    There have been several groundings/sinkings of sailboats, where the small motor failed, and the skipper failed to raise sail in time. My former boat, Wave Dancer, died of this fate, from a novice who rented her.

    If you got a sailboat, why the heck would you rely on a motor? Folks like that sometimes call themselves environmentalists AND smart. They are neither.

    Reminds me of a time in Honokohau, in Kona, when the harbor master hassled me cuz my sailboat had no motor on it for about 4 months. He said I have to have a motor to keep my slip. I said "It's got a motor. We call it wind and sails."

    He said I would have to motor out, round the green buoy, and back to my slip.

    So I raised the main, quietly sailed down the channel, out to the buoy, around, and back down the channel. The wind was light, and from a perfect direction. I rounded up, backed the main, and slowly reversed the sailboat into a perfect glass slipper landing, while tying the bow, and the stern.

    I bowed deeply, in a very exagerated manner, and doffed my cap, in all directions, to an imaginary throng surrounding me. He was supermad. But what could he say?

    Takes YEARS and YEARS, and lots of oops moments to become a proficient sailor. But I will take sails over a stinky, smoky motor any old day.
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  13. #38
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    I often wonder if Lika and I sailed together on some pirate ship in a past life.
    Anything's possible. Were you made to "walk the plank" a lot?

    First of all, there is no shame in asking the owner, upon boarding, where the PFD's are located.
    Indeed. And actually an owner should always instruct guests about that, whether they're rookies or old salts. Other safety instructions should also be given to all new guests, right down to how to use the head and what should or shouldn't be put in it. ("If you didn't already eat or drink it, it doesn't go into the head.")

    If you are on a sailboat, and the owner is motoring out of the channel without the mainsail up, on motor only, there is a 100% chance that you are sailing with a novice skipper.
    Too many variables to make a blanket statement like that. I'll agree with TurtleGirl on this one. There are circumstances, albeit rare, where it is proper to motor out without hoisting sail. In most cases, though, you should have a sail raised so you have maneuverability in case the engine dies.

    Channel 16 is a useful channel on the VHF.
    It's the primary channel, of course. But the problem with VHF radio is that the signals are only line-of-sight, so there are many areas where our mountains block the signals. Most smart boaters also carry CB radios and especially cell phones.

    Never be ashamed to ask if the bilge plug is screwed in and tightened.
    Or if the bilge pumps are working.

    In the event of a capsize, stay with the wreckage.
    Absolutely true! Find something to hang onto and, you know, hang onto it. History has proven that more people die from trying to swim away.

    It's always prudent to shorten sail the moment you think you should. The wisest captains do that chore while safely inside the harbor. Most boats actually go faster, in good wind, with less sail.
    Yeah. It's funny how a lot of sailors think that the more you're heeled over, the faster you're going. Wrong! We even proved that once by taking out two identical boats in a frisky breeze. One shortened sail, and sped away from the other one.
    In offshore races we usually shorten sail at sunset, as you can't read the ocean surface at night and see the big gusts and squalls coming.
    On the other hand, when I raced on the ultralight 70-footers we used to aim for squalls to take advantage of stronger wind. (Disclaimer: Rookies and amateurs should never try that.)

    If you think too many people are boarding the boat, say something, and choose not to go.
    Ditto for recognizing inebriated people on a boat.

    The ocean is a harsh task master. Under adverse circumstances, happy endings are few.
    Not only harsh, but totally and absolutely unforgiving.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    Lorenz Sell seems to be a pretty familiar name with the local high-tech and angel-investing communities. I'd also speculate that a CEO's ability to attract business and investors rests on his reputation-- good or bad.
    With all due respect, just because someone may be smart in business has no correlation with their being smart at sea.
    In one rescue case, I saved the hand of a person who had done something extremely stupid on a boat. He was a Superior Court Judge. Presumably bright in the courtroom. At sea? Not so bright.
    And in any case, I have not said that Lorenz Sell is the "idiot" discussed earlier. Not enough information yet. See my earlier post today.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Walk the plank? Are you kidding me? It's the antagonist in me, isn't it?
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  16. #41
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    Post Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by turtlegirl View Post
    ... Try to avoid making generalizations when talking about sailing, please, because each outing is different.
    Generalizations in general work, but of course their are exceptions.

    My opinions?
    If a sailboat has cast off from the dock without (at least) main and jib sails 100% ready to hoist, then that's a mistake.
    All boats should be ready at a moments notice to anchor.
    Always help others, while out on the sea.

    My father used to say to me...
    "There are no stupid questions, only a stupid time to ask."
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  17. #42
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    Others (like JPhilipson) have indicated that Lorenz was at the helm. Are you able to say whether or not he's the one behaving in the manner you describe? I can't pick him out from the video or photo links, and I don't know if those left-arm tattoos are his...
    Good point about being careful with people's reputations, and making sure you know the true identity of the person behaving badly. To Lika's credit, he didn't drop any names prior to my mention of JPhilipson's post.

    And yeah, sometimes an owner will lend his/her boat to a friend, who may behave poorly. Not totally the owner's fault, but on the other hand the boat, it's name, and reputation belongs to the owner. The owner should talk to boating regulars to make sure his friend is behaving correctly. If not, the owner should make amends to the community and set his friend straight.

    Of course if you're sharing ownership with another person, things get trickier. Perhaps that's why the original owner sold his share, to get out of a bad relationship?


    a CEO's ability to attract business and investors rests on his reputation-- good or bad. On a small island.
    True, true. It's a small world.

    It's possible this person has a good reputation on land and in the business community. Among his friends and colleagues he could be a solid guy. Of course throw people into a different environment (say the boating world), and they could show a different side, because they haven't been socialized to the new community. Like how a person can be polite in person, but a real jerk online. Until he's kicked out or set straight by the regulars.

    I'm wondering if anyone has directly confronted this guy about his behavior. I know Hawaii folks tend to be passive aggressive. Of course hard heads just don't listen.

    On another note, depending on the business and how much money a person brings in, companies may ignore negative behavior for the all mighty dollar. I recall some South American business who allowed their best salesman to sexually harass coworkers. Fire the secretary, keep the money maker. Nothing personal; it's just business.

    If this guy truly earned his reputation, then he deserves the consequences. If he's innocent, then he better hope the boating community is willing to vouch for him.

    But yes, as Nords pointed out, when real names start flying, time to be extra cautious with your statements.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  18. #43

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Everyone managed to come out more or less unscathed.

    However, the carelessness of this skipper resulted in the bay being poisoned with several gallons of gasoline. And a lot of people got exposed to a known carcinogen (this doesn't include the sun).

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    Of course if you're sharing ownership with another person, things get trickier. Perhaps that's why the original owner sold his share, to get out of a bad relationship?
    Yes, absolutely correct.

    But yes, as Nords pointed out, when real names start flying, time to be extra cautious with your statements.
    Also absolutely correct, which is why I've been extremely careful through this whole thread.
    Anyone here who knows JPhilipson should contact him try to find out Lorenz Sells history of ownership of Aquadelica. If he's the one who bought out the original owner and then had to move it to Heeia Kea harbor, then he's the idiot. If he's not that person, then his name would -- and should -- be cleared.
    I have other ways of finding out, but it'll take a couple of days.

    Also FYI: In the past hour I've received a few e-mails from a couple of really high-powered people in the media who are watching the sandbar incident very very closely and who knew I'd probably have some knowledge about that particular boat. These people have also had their own run-ins with the "idiot" (whoever that idiot might be).
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  20. #45

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Taken about an hour ago. There seems to be some boats around it now.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    Taken about an hour ago.
    Oooh, that doesn't look good at all. And it looks like you took that photo at almost the peak of low tide, so that's when we should've seen the most of the boat above water (assuming that it's sitting on sand, which it must be). Yikes!
    Thanks for the photos and the updates, GG!

    By the way, I mentioned earlier about e-mails I was getting. One high-powered media person wrote "This guy is a menace. We have observed his abhorrent behavior many times. The Coast Guard should seize his boat."
    Another comment came from an extremely wealthy person in the high tech industry who is also an extremely experienced sailor, who wrote "Aquadelica is our former dock neighbor who would often drunkenly crash-land, requiring all kinds of help... Hope no fuel leakage or other environmental damage occurred, but if so, he deserves to have the book thrown at him.
    Schadenfreude, oh schadenfreude... That's what I call an environmental impact! Life will be a lot better without him and his crew."

    Now you all know why I wrote yesterday that almost all the sandbar regulars would be cheering.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Eddie would go, but he should have stayed
    Tim, this is very important: Did you come up with this, or are you quoting someone else? I'm asking because I'm about to make it my motto, and I want to make sure I cite the proper coiner of the phrase, if the coiner is known. I think this is one of the greatest things I've read in ages.
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  23. #48
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Okay, it's up on on KGMB's website now at this link . That has a 20-second video and just a couple of paragraphs. The story leaves more questions UNanswered, particularly in having no mention of a containment boom.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    This is an interesting ongoing thread which gives landlubbers like me some knowledge about what goes on inside the boating community. Through all the posts though, I can't seem to keep the possibility that this will trigger some kind of legislation again on a possible ban on recreational use of the sandbar in Kaneohe. I hope I am wrong for the boating community's sake.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Just gonna throw the link for the Hawaii Division of Boating and Ocean Recreation in the thread for anyone who might be curious like I was.

    http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dbor/dbor.htm



    and this:


    http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/s...ws/Hawaii.html
    Last edited by Peshkwe; January 11th, 2009 at 02:16 PM. Reason: added another link

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