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Thread: Bad day on the sandbar

  1. #51

    Default Right on, Tim!

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Reminds me of a time in Honokohau, in Kona, when the harbor master hassled me cuz my sailboat had no motor on it for about 4 months. He said I have to have a motor to keep my slip. I said "It's got a motor. We call it wind and sails."
    He said I would have to motor out, round the green buoy, and back to my slip.
    So I raised the main, quietly sailed down the channel, out to the buoy, around, and back down the channel. The wind was light, and from a perfect direction. I rounded up, backed the main, and slowly reversed the sailboat into a perfect glass slipper landing, while tying the bow, and the stern.
    I bowed deeply, in a very exagerated manner, and doffed my cap, in all directions, to an imaginary throng surrounding me. He was supermad. But what could he say?
    This is one of the best things I've ever read on this forum.
    And Tim's 'Eddie quote' was said and thot by many when the sad news was announced that week. It's probably true, but only those there that day know the full circumstances behind the decision.

    Concerning the long standing bad behaviour by the boater, he should have been ratted to the Coast Guard long ago, often, and by many. His kind have no place on the water.
    Same thing with all these jet skiers that go full throttle inside reefs and bouys all around our islands.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by scrivener View Post
    Tim, this is very important: Did you come up with this, or are you quoting someone else? I'm asking because I'm about to make it my motto, and I want to make sure I cite the proper coiner of the phrase, if the coiner is known. I think this is one of the greatest things I've read in ages.
    Google didn't turn up any examples of Tim's exact phrase "Eddie would go, but he should have stayed", but it did find this quote from Norman Piʻianaiʻa, one of Eddie's fellow sailors on Hōkūleʻa. Like Ron said, many people did have that same thought at the time.

    "I don't remember what I said, but I didn't think Eddie should have gone; everyone should have stayed together. I'm sure we could have lasted a few more days, but who knows?"
    (From Eddie Would Go: The Story of Eddie Aikau, Hawaiian Hero and Pioneer of Big Wave Surfing)

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    I can't seem to keep the possibility that this will trigger some kind of legislation again on a possible ban on recreational use of the sandbar in Kaneohe.
    As I said before, I see nothing about this incident that would cause that. When that legislation came up a couple of years ago, it was because of massive out-of-control parties on the sandbar involving hundreds of people drinking and a few fights (the main one of which turned out to be off-duty cops).
    Yesterday's incident was just one boat that had a mechanical/structural problem. Why would that prompt new legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Concerning the long standing bad behaviour by the boater, he should have been ratted to the Coast Guard long ago, often, and by many.
    He may well have been. But unless the CG or DLNR personally witness violations, there isn't anything they can do. The CG is usually offshore, not in a bay; and DLNR only has a total of three people to cover the entire windward coast from Waimanalo to Kahuku, and those three have to cover both water activities and hiking trails and rescues! Three people! RIDICULOUS!!!

    His kind have no place on the water. Same thing with all these jet skiers that go full throttle inside reefs and bouys all around our islands.
    Amen. Here's a photo of one jet ski who blasted between me and my boat (the one behind him, with the blue canvas bimini top) at the sandbar. He was in about 1' of water, and there were other people and kids in the area:
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Normally I try to not include Aquadelica in my sandbar photos and I try to anchor a long way away from them and from the rowdy crowds, but I mentioned in my first post in this thread that I might have photos of Aquadelica squeezing into other boats territory at the sandbar. Well, I found this photo from last Memorial Day, taken as I was passing by while he trying to shoehorn into a tiny spot:

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    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Lika - what a nice looking boat! I bet you have lots of fun out there!
    Boo! on that jet skier! Hope you are having a nice weekend!

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Glen, I just typed that off the cuff. Have fun with it.

    It's what I said about if a boat sinks, stay with the wreckage flotsam.
    It's an old bit of maritime wisdom from time immemorial.
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  7. #57
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    With all due respect, just because someone may be smart in business has no correlation with their being smart at sea.
    In one rescue case, I saved the hand of a person who had done something extremely stupid on a boat. He was a Superior Court Judge. Presumably bright in the courtroom. At sea? Not so bright.
    And in any case, I have not said that Lorenz Sell is the "idiot" discussed earlier. Not enough information yet. See my earlier post today.
    Eh, you and I posted a minute apart and I'd already wandered off to other things.

    I'm more familiar with submarine nuclear propulsion but I had my days of sail. I'm also familiar with "born stupid" and "temporarily rendered stupid".

    My point is that Sell's reputation is an aggregation of different activities & contexts, as well as different crowds of people, and right now he's busy raising money for his "ILovePhotos" startup. He probably has other projects cooking too. Acting like a waterborne jerk may be something his publicist would advise against, and if he was the guy behaving in the manner you describe then it'd certainly affect my opinion of his leadership of any project he was involved with... afloat or ashore. So I'm just collecting investment-research data. If he's not the jerk then so much the better. If he is the jerk, well, then it looks like the media is hot on the trail. Should be interesting. Thanks for bringing our attention to the story.

    Last year another local startup hired a recently retired officer to run their manufacturing operations. What the company's board of directors hadn't realized was that the guy had been fired from command due to major safety violations, crewmembers falsifying logs, and his more or less being a jerk. It might have affected the hiring decision if it had come to light sooner. Seems to be working out OK so far but I'm skeptical.
    Last edited by Nords; January 11th, 2009 at 03:59 PM.
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  8. #58

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Update as of a little before 5PM. They've got it level, now they just need to wait for the inside to dry out.

    It's hard to see, even with the binoculars, but I think there's a bag at the back holding it up. I've seen some red around it, so there may be a containment boom.

    As for the reputation of the guy involved, I'm sure it depends on if you're a part of his party or not.
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
    Karma rocks!

    I came here to say that!



    and after the twittering and vids, this guy seems like a Class A Douche bag.
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
    photos of Aquadelica squeezing into other boats territory at the sandbar. Well, I found this photo from last Memorial Day,
    It sure doesn't look like Memorial Day here at the old folks home!
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  11. #61

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Hey everyone! I never come to forums so forgive me if I'm breaking some rule or something but I just felt like I wanted to make some things clear.

    Lorenz is only part owner of the vessel. From my understanding there is one or two other owners of the vessel. The reason I know Lorenz is that we have done some work together and I can personally vouch for him and that he is a good person. In no way by me mentioning his name did I intend to "bash" him. I respect him and admire him as a good person. However, I can't vouch for what the other owner's/operators of the boat have done in the past. I personally look up to Lorenz and as long as I've known him he's been a good guy.

    The Lorenz that is being described in the previous posts is not the Lorenz I know. Even before the ship left the docks Lorenz was making sure that their weren't too many people on the deck. He was the one that made sure we were far enough away from the rest of the ships at the sandbar. He even walked to each boat and personally asked all the vessels in the area if it was ok if we played music before we started.

    I was in the boat with Lorenz while we were swimming in the cabin of the ship attempting to rescue people's personal effects. We were definitely not more interested in flat screen tv's then finding peoples belongings. He even helped carry a girl who's leg was in a cast get off the boat and make sure that she was loaded into a nearby vessel.

    Also, if you know me personally then you know that I don't associate myself with stupid people.

    Lorenz is a really good guy and I don't want him or his reputation/company being affected by this incident.

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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by TATTRAT View Post
    I came here to say that![...]
    Then say it! Twice won't hurt!

  13. #63
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Lol



    Karma!!!!!!
    flickr

    An email from God:
    To: People of Earth
    From: God
    Date: 9/04/2007
    Subject: stop

    knock it off, all of you

    seriously, what the hell


    --
    God

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by JPhilipson View Post
    Hey everyone!
    Heya Joe! Good to see you on HT.


    The Lorenz that is being described in the previous posts is not the Lorenz I know.
    It's a good sign that you're willing to vouch for him. Perhaps another owner, or a friend of the other owner(s), is the one responsible for mistreating the boating community. Unless people have a portrait shot of the bad apple in action, the reputation will follow the boat and everyone associated with it. It'd be like letting a drunk friend log onto your online accounts and ruining your reputation.


    Thanks for telling your side of the story, Joe. Hopefully others can further confirm Lorenz isn't the person responsible for the negative image of the Aquadelica.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  15. #65
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    Heya Joe! Good to see you on HT.
    Indeed. Welcome, Joe! I'm glad that you and the others are all safe and sound, and I hope your equipment wasn't ruined.
    It sounds like Lorenz may not be the bad owner, but I'm still not clear on it. Can you find out if Lorenz is the one who bought out the original owner, changed the boat name, and moved the boat to Heeia Kea harbor? That's the answer we really need in order to solve the mystery.

    Unless people have a portrait shot of the bad apple in action, the reputation will follow the boat and everyone associated with it. It'd be like letting a drunk friend log onto your online accounts and ruining your reputation.
    Exactly right, MJ. Sad but true that anyone associated with that boat will be painted with the same bad brush.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  16. #66

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    I'd be interested in finding out what caused the Aquadelica to sink.

    Whatever it was, it must have taken place sometime between the boat leaving the dock and arriving at the sandbar.

    Otherwise it would have been underwater before it left the dock.

  17. #67

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    One of our artists at work often says it this way:

    "Eddie wen go, an' dat bugga, he GONE."
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    "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by JPhilipson View Post
    Lorenz is only part owner of the vessel. From my understanding there is one or two other owners of the vessel. The reason I know Lorenz is that we have done some work together and I can personally vouch for him and that he is a good person. In no way by me mentioning his name did I intend to "bash" him. I respect him and admire him as a good person. However, I can't vouch for what the other owner's/operators of the boat have done in the past. I personally look up to Lorenz and as long as I've known him he's been a good guy.
    Lorenz is a really good guy and I don't want him or his reputation/company being affected by this incident.
    Thanks, good to hear.

    Sounds like one hard-used boat. Should be an interesting partner's discussion on who pays for repairs...
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  19. #69

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Hi everyone,

    My name is Lorenz Sell and I'm one of the owners of the Aquadelica boat. I'd like to clarify some of the issues being discussed on this forum.

    To be clear, there are a number of partners involved in the Aquadelica boat. At any time, any partner is authorized to take the boat out on his or her own. I can't vouch for what goes on with the boat when I'm not around, but when I'm on it I try to be as respectful as possible. I'm new to boat ownership and have really appreciated how generous the Hawaii boating community has been with teaching me boat etiquette and how to properly handle a boat. I can't imagine that I've offended anyone that I have personally interacted with at the harbor or while at sea. If anyone believes that I have, I will gladly meet them in person to address this and, if true, offer my most sincere apologies.

    If some of the boat partners are guilty of something, it's a predilection for loud music. Some people like it, some people don't. We try to position ourselves such that we don't disturb too many people and often find that shortly after we park, those boats that appreciate our music move closer. Anytime a person has complained to me, I've turned down the music or moved the boat.

    We take safety very seriously and have every precaution covered on the boat, including more than enough PFDs for every person that has ever been a passenger on our boat (including child and baby PFDs). The person who operates our boat most of the time is a former naval officer who is also a competitive sailor. When the boat is being navigated we ALWAYS have at least a couple of people on the bow looking out for anything in our way. I've read posts here that accuse us of almost running over children. That is simply not true.

    People are saying some pretty wild stuff about what happened on Saturday and I'd like to address some of these comments. We did not go out there with 40 people. Some of my friends organized a beach volleyball and BBQ gathering at the Sandbar. Our boat and other vessels were helping shuttle people to the sandbar. Reports that say that Aquadelica sank with 40 people on board are grossly misleading. While there may have been 40 people on the sandbar (playing volleyball, having a BBQ, and enjoying a pleasant day in the sun), these people were very safe in ankle high water. Certainly all of them did not come on our boat, and all of them were able to find transportation back to the dock.

    The Aquadelica was anchored next to the sandbar around noon at which time everything seemed to be fine. Roughly an hour later we noticed that the swimming step was almost submerged. Alarmed we quickly evacuated the 10 people that were aboard the boat and investigated the situation. We opened the engine compartment and saw that it was completely flooded and made an attempt to pail the water out with buckets. We quickly realized that the boat was sinking much faster than we could get the water out and we turned our attention to the stuff that was on the boat. We removed everyone's belongings as quickly as we could, passing them up through the forward hatch. As the boat was sinking deeper, there were a couple of us with goggles diving in the cabin looking for people's wallets, purses, and keys. The last thing to go was a flat screen TV that had been mounted on the wall.

    Every measure was taken to contain any environmental damage or fuel leakage. We hired professionals to do this and after inspecting how we took care of the situation, the Coast Guard and DLNR are both very happy with our environmental containment. The boat is in the process of being salvaged and upon inspection the most likely cause of the sinking appears to be a leak related to the generator exhaust seal.

    I'm somewhat shocked at the amount of sheer negativity towards Aquadelica on this forum. If I've offended anyone here, I'm very sorry. We just lost our boat out of mechanical failure and it sucks. If you have any specific questions for me, I'm happy to answer them here.
    Last edited by lorenzsell; January 12th, 2009 at 07:29 AM.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    In the midst of all the hassles related to this incident, what with salvage, insurance, investigations, etc., I'm a bit amazed that folks involved with it have the time (or even the desire) to address the related discussions of an internet forum.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Credit for posting your side, but there is obviously a long standing unhappiness about many innopropriate handling's of the vessel and other actions by someone/s.

    Keep the dialog running and maybe the matters will be sussed out and eventually rectified for all concerned.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    I'm a bit amazed that folks involved with it have the time (or even the desire) to address the related discussions of an internet forum.
    Though I don't mingle amongst the C-level folks myself, I would say one of the primary jobs of a CEO is to manage investor, customer, and public relations.


    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzsell View Post
    Hi everyone
    Hello and welcome to the forum, Lorenz. Too bad it's not under better circumstances. Thanks for dropping by to share your side of the story.


    If you have any specific questions for me, I'm happy to answer them here.
    Is there a log which shows who and when one of the owners takes the Aquadelica out? Is this log public? Is this log maintained by the owners or by a third party (like some harbor authority)?
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  23. #73
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzsell View Post
    My name is Lorenz Sell and I'm one of the owners of the Aquadelica boat. I'd like to clarify some of the issues being discussed on this forum.
    Aloha, Lorenz. Welcome to HT, and thanks for coming in to try to clarify things.

    To be clear, there are a number of partners involved in the Aquadelica boat.
    The easiest way to clear your own name is to tell us whether or not you are the person who bought the boat from Bruce (the original owner), changed the name and had it painted on the bow, and moved the boat to Heeia Kea.
    That is the person known to all Kaneohe boaters as "the idiot" and who has given that boat such a horrible reputation, which of course spills over onto any other partners or passengers.

    At any time, any partner is authorized to take the boat out on his or her own.
    And that's exactly why partnerships of boats never ever work out! Usually no partner takes responsibility for damage, there are arguments over expenses, etc. In your current case, and assuming the generator exhaust seal is the culprit for the sinking, whose responsibility is it? Who should have been ensuring the baot was seaworthy? Etcetera.
    Partnerships of a boat is a great way to end friendships.

    I can't vouch for what goes on with the boat when I'm not around, but when I'm on it I try to be as respectful as possible.
    Good for you. But as you've seen in numerous postings in this thread and as I just said above, the boat itself has a vile reputation which, right or wrong, extends to anyone on the boat at any time.

    I'm new to boat ownership
    Assuming you like it, you really really should consider buying your own boat and being sole owner.

    We try to position ourselves such that we don't disturb too many people
    Perhaps you are a brand new partner? I go out to the sandbar on an average of every other weekend, and I have never once seen Aquadelica anywhere but smack dab at the high spot, right in the middle of everything, even if the boat has to shoehorn into the spot they want.
    And I've never once seen the boat move, as you claim, when hordes of people complain about the horrendously loud music. (Most folks out there are enjoying their own music, kept at a low level out of respect for others. Claiming that people like Aquadelica's outrageously loud music is utter nonsense.)
    It is simply rude and inappropriate behavior, and is exactly the kind of behavior that caused potential legislation recently to entirely close the sandbar to all recreational boaters!!! And those are all precisely the reasons that have created so much anger toward the boat!

    I've read posts here that accuse us of almost running over children. That is simply not true.
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree, as I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Perhaps not when you were aboard, but it most definitely has happened.

    People are saying some pretty wild stuff about what happened on Saturday and I'd like to address some of these comments. We did not go out there with 40 people.
    The "40" came from KGMB's report, while Joe Philpson said 30 or 31, as I recall, on his blog.

    Every measure was taken to contain any environmental damage or fuel leakage. We hired professionals to do this
    Good. The photos didn't seem to show a containment boom. What time was that put in place?

    The boat is in the process of being salvaged and upon inspection the most likely cause of the sinking appears to be a leak related to the generator exhaust seal.
    Was the generator running after you arrived at the sandbar and before the sinking?

    I'm somewhat shocked at the amount of sheer negativity towards Aquadelica on this forum.
    Assuming you've read the entire thread, the negativity is clearly not just from this forum, it's from almost the entire Kaneohe boating community. Sure, the young players who take out daddy's boat for the day may love the loud music and wildness, but that's a minority. The serious boaters and the family boaters have a long-standing and well deserved dislike of Aquadelica. Your boat has almost singlehandedly ruined the sandbar experience for a large majority of boaters.
    You're reportedly a successful businessman, yet it seems clear that you did not do your due diligence on researching the boat before you bought into it. A few questions around the waterfront would've opened your eyes and kept you from a bad investment, and clearly you would then NOT be "shocked at the amount of sheer negativity toward Aquadelica."

    If you have any specific questions for me, I'm happy to answer them here.
    I've asked several in this reply, so I'm looking forward to the answers. Particularly, whether or not you are the person who bought the boat from Bruce (the original owner), changed the name and had it painted on the bow, and moved the boat to Heeia Kea. And if not, who is that person?
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    A couple more things for Lorenz:

    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzsell View Post
    We did not go out there with 40 people.
    I refer you to KGMB's report at this link. They state, in part:

    "Fire officials say there was a total of 41 passengers.
    David Michelmore and his friends were nearby when it all happened.
    "When we got here people were pretty much on other boats, we got here they all climbed in and got rides. Nobody should put 40 people on a boat, they shouldn't have more than 10," said Michelmore.
    "The Aquadelica's passenger count is one thing the coast guard will look into during it's investigation."


    So witnesses and the Fire Department seem to disagree pretty strongly with your comment, enough so that the Coast Guard is conducting an investigation. Interesting.

    We hired professionals to do this and after inspecting how we took care of the situation, the Coast Guard and DLNR are both very happy with our environmental containment.
    They may be "happy" with the containment, but in addition to the quote above, that same KGMB report also states:

    "It's a violation of federal law to overload a boat beyond it's capacity, and there also must be one life jacket on board for every person. If not, the owner could be slapped with hefty fines, and lose his boating license.
    (...)
    "The Department of Land and Natural Resources will then monitor the area for any pollutants left behind, and possible damage to the reef below."


    So while they may have been "happy" about the containment (so you claim), it appears that the Fire Department, the Coast Guard, and the DLNR are each doing investigations regarding violations of federal and state laws, and there's a possibility of "hefty fines."
    Uh-oh.

    Well, there are three sides to every story: one person's side, another one's side, and the truth is somewhere in between.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  25. #75

    Default Re: Bad day on the sandbar

    As long as I have been involved with the boat, it has been owned by our group of partners. I was not, however, personally involved with the actual purchase transaction. Bruce was never an owner of the boat and the boat has never been named Serenity (I believe that's the name of his current boat). He used to lease our slip to us. As a group, once we purchased the boat, we named it Aquadelica and painted the logo on.

    Safety and maintenance of the boat have been of utmost importance to all of us. We regularly have the boat maintained and just recently took it to dry dock to repaint the bottom and conduct maintenance. We had a mechanic looking at the generator and engines just a couple days before this incident.

    The reports of 40 people on the sand bar may well be accurate. Remember, we were on the sand bar. By the time the Coast Guard got there, there was only two or three people actually on the boat, myself included, removing people's belongings. But those people were on the sandbar next to our boat. They were not on our boat. There were other boats in our vicinity. At the time there had been a volleyball game and BBQ in progress. As we often do, we were providing music for the gathering. However, with a sinking boat right next to them, the people gathered around the boat to watch what for most will hopefully be a once in a life time spectacle. One of the reason's everyone left after our boat sank is that as soon as it started sinking, the weather turned foul and it started pouring rain.

    The containment boom was put in place within a couple of hours of the incident. Protecting the environment was our top concern after the event and we took all possible measures to mitigate any potential damage to an area that we all love so much.

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