Libertarianism in Hawaii

[BKHale2007]

A thread to discuss libertarianism in Hawaii.

[Menehune Man]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

http://www.libertarianpartyofhawaii.org/

Nice ideals and an all around good way to live. Non-aggression and respecting others.
Bigger, stronger, meaner, forceful usually wins though.

I'm just a hippie with a haircut, but it's hard to fully live it in this society.

"We're trying to live respected lives
To understand rules and our wives
Can't we all just get along
Or is it too late, too far gone"

[matapule]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

A thread to discuss libertarianism in Hawaii.

Good luck and blessed be.

[TuNnL]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

http://www.libertarianpartyofhawaii.org/

Nice ideals and an all around good way to live. Non-aggression and respecting others.
Bigger, stronger, meaner, forceful usually wins though.

I agree. And it is winning. Until we get more libertarians on Capitol Hill (Go Ron Paul!), libertarianism is meaningless on the state or city level. If the feds cannot respect states rights, how can the states hope to govern?

A perfect example is the pakalolo debate. Hawai‘i’s own U.S. Attorney Ed Kubo said he couldn’t care less what state law is in the islands. He’s a fed and he WILL crack down on anyone violating federal drug laws. Libertarians would live and let live. Democrats and Republicans are united in the war on drugs, even if it bankrupts the country.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

SCRIVENER - where are you?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

I respect libertarianism, because I respect liberty. I.e., Freedom.

My freedom, as an individual, extends to the limits where my actions restrict the freedoms of another. Makes sense.

If I want to set off fireworks, I must respect my neighbors petition for quiet. If I smoke, I must respect my nearby brother/sister's freedom to breathe clean air.

I swing my fist! If it impacts your jaw, I have violated your rights; otherwise, I'm OK.

Already we have so many laws that the police can no longer enforce them:
People with licence plates covered by plastic or 'other' are in violation, but it is not enforced.
Drivers who drive slow in the left lane, and refuse to move over are also in violation. Police simply pass them on the right, as we all do, and ignore enforcement of the law. Is it that the police don't KNOW the law? Or do they deliberately ignore it?

Now the legislature wants more NEW laws! Helmets for motorcycles, micro-imprinting for firearm ammunition, banning pit bull canines. MORE NEW laws o enforce, when the police cannot even enforce existing laws.

We gotta get REAL here. We are on the slippery slope to anarchy.

[Amati]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

Drivers who drive slow in the left lane, and refuse to move over are also in violation. Police simply pass them on the right, as we all do, and ignore enforcement of the law. Is it that the police don't KNOW the law? Or do they deliberately ignore it?

You brought this up in another post, and I asked what law is that? I'll ask again, I've not heard of that law in Hawaii.

[TuNnL]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

Drivers who drive slow in the left lane, and refuse to move over are also in violation. Police simply pass them on the right, as we all do, and ignore enforcement of the law. Is it that the police don't KNOW the law? Or do they deliberately ignore it?

You brought this up in another post, and I asked what law is that? I'll ask again, I've not heard of that law in Hawaii.

I can’t speak for Kaonohi, but off the top of my head, I believe the violation of law would be characterized as “disregarding traffic control device.” That device would be the inconsistently posted sign that reads “Slower traffic keep right.” It should also be noted that the violation is not listed on current ‘State of Hawai‘i - Notice of traffic infraction(s)’ tickets, and thus HPD would have strong motivation to deliberately ignore any such violation (namely the extra paperwork it would generate).

[/offtopic]

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

Now the legislature wants more NEW laws! --- MORE NEW laws o enforce --- We are on the slippery slope to anarchy.

I enjoyed your post, but this part, I admit, cracked me up a bit. The thought of more laws being a path to anarchy ... well, you gotta see the amusing disconnect, no?

[Amati]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

I can’t speak for Kaonohi, but off the top of my head, I believe the violation of law would be characterized as “disregarding traffic control device.” That device would be the inconsistently posted sign that reads “Slower traffic keep right.” It should also be noted that the violation is not listed on current ‘State of Hawai‘i - Notice of traffic infraction(s)’ tickets, and thus HPD would have strong motivation to deliberately ignore any such violation (namely the extra paperwork it would generate).

[/offtopic]

Yes, of course if there is a sign posted then "slower traffic keep right" would apply. But I do not see anywhere in the Driver's Ed book, nor online at the HRS site, about it being a law that applies to all roads that slower traffice must keep right.
But, I'm here to learn. Kaonohi, point it out please.

[scrivener]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

I'm watching this thread, of course, since I seem to be the only avowed libertarian on HT, but I'm not sure I have anything specific to say about libertarianism in Hawaii, as indeed nobody has so far. I do believe that Hawaii has a mostly live-and-let-live mentality, but that mentality seems to apply more to personal relationships and interactions than to legislation.

Hawaii is a pretty gay-friendly state, for example, but we shot down gay marriage and I think only a small part of that can be attributed to the influence of mainland interest groups who spent their money campaigning here against it. A mind-your-own-business mentality contributes to a rather liberal existence, but a keep-your-business-to-yourself flipside indicates a reluctance to make serious change. How can we mind our own business, the message seems to be, if you're making me deal with you in the voting booth and on the street?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

A perfect example is the pakalolo debate. Hawai‘i’s own U.S. Attorney Ed Kubo said he couldn’t care less what state law is in the islands. He’s a fed and he WILL crack down on anyone violating federal drug laws.

As well it should be! It's damn scary to think about our federal law enforcement officials being submissive to local/state officials and politicians.

Hello? Impeached Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich?

Keep in mind that Kubo and the like are officials whose job it is to *enforce* federal laws. They don't *legislate* them. That's two very different things. You don't like the federal laws? You gotta take it up with Congress, not the FBI.

[Amati]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

As well it should be! It's damn scary to think about our federal law enforcement officials being submissive to local/state officials and politicians.

Yes, gotta' agree on that one.
Federal law supercedes state law.
State law supercedes county law.
County law supercedes town law.

An example could be that a state could pass all the laws it wants to allow for gang cesspools, but federal law has now banned gang cesspolls (for environmental reasons). So, no matter what a state might want in the way of allowing for those types cesspolls, too bad, because federal law bans them.

Federal law comes first, then state, then county, then town (although Hawaii does not have town laws).

[Kaonohi]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii

Actually, that works both ways....

Local laws can be more strict than federal law, in some cases. Just look at firearms restrictions and registration requirements.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Libertarianism in Hawaii, and elsewhere....

Yes, of course if there is a sign posted then "slower traffic keep right" would apply. But I do not see anywhere in the Driver's Ed book, nor online at the HRS site, about it being a law that applies to all roads that slower traffice must keep right.
But, I'm here to learn. Kaonohi, point it out please.

My pleasure.

http://archives.starbulletin.com/200...kokualine.html is a good place to get the overview.

The law itself is Section 291C-41(b) of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, which addresses the topic of driving on the right side: "Upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway."

In other words, as the sign says, "Slower traffic keep right."

It says NOTHING about speed limits: if you are driving slower than I in the left lane, you are obligated, BY LAW, to move into the right lane.

I don't make the laws, I just follow them.

GTF OUT of my way! If I'm speeding, report me.

(FWIW): I don't come here daily - I have another, parallel, life to live. For those who have been waiting for responses: Thank you for your patience and consideration.

Oh and for the actual wording:
Specifically, Section 15-7.4 (c) states: "Whenever any roadway is clearly marked for two or more lanes of traffic moving in the same direction, no person driving a motor vehicle in the lane or lanes other than the extreme right lane shall travel at a speed which is five miles per hour or more below the maximum stated speed, e.g., below 30 miles per hour in a 35-mile-per-hour speed limit zone or below 40 miles per hour in a 45-mile-per-hour speed limit zone, except when otherwise directed by a police officer or any other persons authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic, or when a reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, or in compliance with the law."

When's the last time you got a ticket for driving too slow in the left lane?
This is known as "Selective enforcement." Selective enforcement is a path to anarchy, via the "enforcers" only prosecuting laws favorable to their personal (or collective) agendas.

I'll be back!