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Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

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  • #31
    Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

    Originally posted by matapule View Post
    The bible also teaches that masturbation is wrong. Have you been naughty DD, spilling your "seed" on the ground as the bible says? Oh the bible also teaches that eating shellfish, shrimp, and lobster is wrong. Now I know you have sinned!
    LMFAO - too bloody funny

    My personal opinion on civil unions. If it did it would only be for a short period of time for most gay partners. Not negative about it. Just realistic. It is rare I run into gay couples who have shared their lives together for more than 10 years. If I do I would ask they share their stories with me at the secrets of long lasting gay relationships. I met a gay couple who have lasted more than 20 years. I admire that. I am old fashion when it comes to romance and the likes of a relationship.

    I also believe that within the gay and lesbian community; they have their own battles at rising problems with most gay relationships relating to just only sex; with most problems on short term gay relationships shortly after their civil unions. Makes it difficult for the percentage of gay couples out there who truly believe in the sanctuary of civil unions and gay marriages.

    As I've stated before with my past posts. I come from the dirt. My foundation is based on religion and the bible. My strong family background is within the mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and The Catholic Church.

    It made it difficult for me during my 14 year relationship with my gay partner. As a 34 year old homosexual. I believe in God and the Holy Bible with what was written; yes I strongly believe in God and the Holy Bible. It's difficult for me to believe that regardless of my sins and my love for my gay partner; that I'll one day face the consequences with my heavenly father. Therefore I Seek Penance everyday as I pray as a 34 year old homosexual who believes in God and the Holy Bible. (My HT member name Seeking Penance). Also believing that judgement and vengeance alone is God my heavenly father.

    I've been with my partner for 14 years since I was 18. Unfortunatley it ended a year and a half ago. The emotional struggles that came with it was difficult. We never discussed gay marriage - I am guessing it is different for most gay couples. My partner and I never believed in civil union. We believed in "Power of Attorney". It made it easier for the both of us till the ending of our relationship. Our love was there for each other; we didn't need to prove it to anyone but to ourselves. When it came to benefits and such there was no way around it. We didn't have time to fuss about it; either pay it out of our own pockets if there wasn't a solution or just deal with it. There was always a solution to our problems; if there wasn't one; we would find one.

    So should civil unions be legalized? my personal opinion as a 34 year old homosexual.

    If Civil Union entitles your gay partner to benefits and such. I am all for it.

    I don't believe in Gay Marriage. No to Gay Marriage.

    Be Blessed
    Last edited by Seeking Penance; February 27, 2009, 01:38 PM. Reason: Correction
    stay forever young

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    • #32
      Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

      Originally posted by Bobinator View Post
      DD, I'm shocked at what you just wrote. I can still hear pins dropping.
      Ooops...sorry I was sewing.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

        Yanno, I have a 'civil union' of sorts even though it's not called that. I was married by my brother in law who was and still is a Notery/ J.P.

        No churchy stuff.

        If marriage is only for the religious then there needs to be Civil Unions to deal with all the folks who don't believe in organized religion.

        Also what about all the non-christian folks who happen to follow their culture's old ways...which may allow same sex marriages.

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        • #34
          Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

          Originally posted by Seeking Penance View Post
          My strong family background is within the mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and The Catholic Church.
          Ahhhhh, a marriage made in heaven!

          It's difficult for me to believe that regardless of my sins and my love for my gay partner; that I'll one day face the consequences with my heavenly father. Therefore I Seek Penance everyday as I pray as a 34 year old homosexual who believes in God and the Holy Bible.
          SP, I have great news for you, you are already forgiven! Celebrate! Celebrate the goodness within yourself. Spread your goodness and joy throughout your community. Besides, you have done nothing worse than the matapule through his life, and I refuse to go straight to h3ll. So wherever you wind up, matapule will already be there. We're going to have a good time, SP! Malohi o'e Tonga!

          I don't believe in Gay Marriage. No to Gay Marriage.
          That's all fine and good, but would you deny that option to other gay couples? Let them decide what is best for themselves.

          Blessed Be
          Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

          People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

            Originally posted by Seeking Penance View Post
            [...]
            My personal opinion on civil unions. If it did it would only be for a short period of time for most gay partners. Not negative about it. Just realistic. It is rare I run into gay couples who have shared their lives together for more than 10 years. If I do I would ask they share their stories with me at the secrets of long lasting gay relationships. I met a gay couple who have lasted more than 20 years. I admire that. I am old fashion when it comes to romance and the likes of a relationship.[...]
            The same can be said of straight couples, SP. Just look at the divorce rate. I was raised in a gay community, but not a gay household. The gay couples I knew growing up had the same relationship problems as our straight friends. Some couples lasted for decades; others lasted a few dates. However, the committed relationships had problems that were magnified because they were gay...much like interracial relationships at that time. It's called discrimination and was *much* worse then compared to now.

            I just learned a couple of months ago that the surviving mate of a lesbian couple my family had known since the early 1950s passed away recently. That couple had been together approx. 50 years.

            Another gay couple I know have been together for a little over 20 years, which is when I first met them. They chose to get married in Calif. last summer. The vows, pomp and circumstance were important to them and I'm thrilled they got the opportunity to realize their dream.

            Marriage isn't for everyone, even straight folks. My concern is for equal rights. I want the gay side of my family to have the right to make important legal decisions for each other, to inherit, to feel financially secure. It doesn't take vows to accomplish that. And, as I mentioned in a previous post, they found a way that works for them.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

              Originally posted by Seeking Penance View Post
              If Civil Union entitles your gay partner to benefits and such. I am all for it.

              I don't believe in Gay Marriage. No to Gay Marriage.
              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              That's all fine and good, but would you deny that option to other gay couples? Let them decide what is best for themselves.
              So just to clarify, matapule — you are both for civil unions and gay marriage? If so, that would seem to provide some confirmation to what both some civil union advocates as well as many opponents have said: civil union legislation is just an intermediary step to push for full ceremonial recognition.

              We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

              — U.S. President Bill Clinton
              USA TODAY, page 2A
              11 March 1993

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              • #37
                Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                So just to clarify, matapule — you are both for civil unions and gay marriage? If so, that would seem to provide some confirmation to what both some civil union advocates as well as many opponents have said: civil union legislation is just an intermediary step to push for full ceremonial recognition.
                I've got a question on that.

                So what if it leads to full ceremonial recognition? If the ceremony has nothing to do with the teachings of the Three Cousins (the three cousins are the off shoots of the teachings of Abraham, the root ancestor of...Judiaism, Christianity and Islam).

                Non-believers must bow down to the will of Allah (or Jesus, or Jehovah), or their minions, whether they are believers or not?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                  Originally posted by Random View Post
                  Can they do that? Should they do that? We've often talk about separation of church and state (i.e., government) only to keep the churches from interfering (or dictating) government affair, but should the government do likewise?
                  Well, I seem to recall that the government got all bent about Mormons practicing polygamy. Know of any churches in the US that practice animal sacrifice? What about religions that use drugs?

                  While the government generally tries to keep "hands off" of churches, I do believe they have interfered in the past.


                  Originally posted by Peshkwe View Post
                  So what if it leads to full ceremonial recognition?
                  I think the concern is forcing said churches to choose between conducting marriage ceremonies for straights AND gays or giving up marriages altogether. As it stands now, churches who endorse gay marriages can perform civil unions, and the traditional churches can continue to do just marriages.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                    Conversely, if you get married by a church and no one ever files a license with the state/government... ?

                    How many of you married folks didn't file a marriage license/certificate of some sort with the state? Filed either by yourself or by the religious authority who married you (some churches do it for you as part of the marriage package)?


                    Even though some states recognize common law marriages, not having filed some sort of license has some of the same inherent hassles as a religious ceremony would have if that certificate isn't filed.

                    http://www.alllaw.com/articles/famil.../article61.asp


                    The way I see it the license with the government holds more weight as far as benefits, taxes, inheritance etc. than any religious ceremony. Since the 'state' (at least here in the US) is by nature a civil authority and inclusive of all it's citizens, theocratic ideology should have no place in it's mechanisms.

                    A religious marriage ceremony is between you and your faith. If you want that same marriage to stand up and be recognized by the state, with all it's legal perks and ramifications, it has to be based on the bones of a civil union.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                      Well, I seem to recall that the government got all bent about Mormons practicing polygamy.
                      I believe that was due in part because of taxes and inheritance laws, though it's something I have only heard about, I can't be positive.

                      {EDIT} never mind this bit, I was confusing the two different Morrill acts.

                      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                      Know of any churches in the US that practice animal sacrifice?
                      Why yes as a matter of fact I do. The Santeria religion and certain Native ceremonies take the life of eagles and dogs.


                      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                      What about religions that use drugs?
                      The Native American Church uses Grandfather Peyote



                      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                      While the government generally tries to keep "hands off" of churches, I do believe they have interfered in the past.
                      *Looks through Native history*

                      Noooo.....REALLY?!? ~snork~
                      Last edited by Peshkwe; February 28, 2009, 03:39 AM. Reason: confuzzlement

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                      • #41
                        Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                        seems clear to me that if you feel that being gay is morally wrong or a crime against god, then you'll be against anything that furthers gay people's rights so that they are equal to non-gays.

                        to them, i say: yes, the bible says that men laying with men is not okay. but some biblical heroes regularly did something which god apparently thought was okay at the time but most of us now would find abominable: have slaves and practice polygamy.

                        i think the reasoning that "the bible says it is so, so it must be," is flawed. the bible was not handed in its entirety from the divine hand of god directly to us. it might have been divinely inspired, but written in fragments by different human authors over centuries. the early christians had no "bible" as it exists today. the council of nicea back in the 300s AD decided which books among the hundreds if not thousands would be made into a christian canon. lastly, if you compare one version of the bible versus another (king james versus NIV, for example--note that the link provided a very opinionated viewpoint), you'll see that the translators cannot help but let their own agendas seep through.

                        in the end, because god does not directly tell us himself, we humans are left to guess what god meant. we're human, not god, so we can't know what was in his mind, so any time we try to use god or the bible as some sort of moral platform, i believe that more often or not, we stand on shaky ground.
                        superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                        "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                        nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

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                        • #42
                          Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          The bible also teaches that masturbation is wrong. Have you been naughty DD, spilling your "seed" on the ground as the bible says? Oh the bible also teaches that eating shellfish, shrimp, and lobster is wrong. Now I know you have sinned!

                          The bible is a poor document to justify anything one way or the other.
                          Yes, I have a towel by the bed that stands up by itself, and no, I'm actually allergic to shellfish. It makes my mouth itch for some reason.

                          But yes, the bible, It's what we've chosen to base our lives on, and what we use to better our lives everyday. It's a long work in progress.
                          www.myspace.com/chrislunainstrumentals

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                            Originally posted by Bobinator View Post
                            DD, I'm shocked at what you just wrote. I can still hear pins dropping.
                            I tried real hard to find these contradictions you found in my posts. I thought they were pretty much point blank, but I guess you read too much into it. Get back to me and let me know specifically what you found so I can explain my point better to you....and that's IF you really want to know what my point was.

                            DD
                            www.myspace.com/chrislunainstrumentals

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                              Originally posted by cynsaligia View Post
                              any time we try to use god or the bible as some sort of moral platform, i believe that more often or not, we stand on shaky ground.
                              Shaky or not, it does look like traditional marriage proponents (most of who subscribe to your “moral platform” analogy) have won this round. I commend them for getting involved. Anything that helps immerse more people in the political process can only be good for democracy. For the LGBT community, don’t take it too hard. There’s always next legislative session.

                              Hundreds of people filled the Senate gallery for the vote and dozens more gathered outside at the state Capitol. Many in the crowd wore red, a symbol of opposition to civil unions, and the audience broke into shouts of joy when the motion was defeated.

                              We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                              — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                              USA TODAY, page 2A
                              11 March 1993

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                                Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                                For the LGBT community, don’t take it too hard. There’s always next legislative session.
                                They keep talking about civil rights:

                                Emancipation Proclamation 1862
                                Civil Rights Movement 1955-1968
                                100 years

                                19th Amendment 1920
                                Women's Movement 1970s
                                50 years

                                Sodomy laws overturned: 2003

                                Be patient. Change takes time.

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