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Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

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  • #46
    Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

    In case anyone is interested - the Civil Unions Bill will be coming up for a vote to pull it from committee and bring to the floor of the Senate for a vote. If it passes, it will then go to the Gov. for review. Vote should take place any time now - they appear to be waiting for the Gov's press conference to be over. But, vote will come today. According to one of the senators, they believe they have the 9 votes necessary to pull the bill and also the 13 votes to pass it.
    "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
    – Sydney J. Harris

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    • #47
      Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

      DOWN with discrimination and bigotry! These are the basest, most corrupt actions of humankind, and lead to genocide.
      All cultures that have based their foundations on those principles have perished, as they should... except for a couple, and they will change or perish as well.
      Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
      ~ ~
      Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
      Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
      Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

        Frack it's all just hedging and semantics in the end. Realistically, what are the differences between civil unions and marriage? Essentially, none. Therefore civil union == marriage. Get over it. Gay couples have the same problems, and attempt to avoid the same taxes, as married couples. Get over it.

        Personally? Marriage scares the bejesus outta me. And I don't even believe in Jesus! (Silly goyim) If some gays want to get married, what's it to you?
        This is a CIVIL RIGHTS issue, not your piddly little "MY G_d said this, BWAAAAAH!"

        SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Get the govt outta the marriage biz entirely. Take away the tax credits, take away all the so-called marriage benefits. Reduce it to a power of attorney to ensure hospital visitation rights and final disposition. First Amendment, Constitution, take it SERIOUSLY for once

        P.S. This tirade is not directed at anyone in particular

        P.P.S. My NEW hobby is reporting churches (and any other religious org for that matter) that violate their non-profit status by contributing to political campaigns and etc. to the IRS. ENJOY YOUR BACK TAXES JERKS! (Cedar Church I SEE what you did there!)
        Last edited by Jewlipino; May 8, 2009, 01:01 AM. Reason: need to shout less

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        • #49
          Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

          Originally posted by Jewlipino View Post
          Frack it's all just hedging and semantics in the end. Realistically, what are the differences between civil unions and marriage? Essentially, none. Therefore civil union == marriage. Get over it. Gay couples have the same problems, and attempt to avoid the same taxes, as married couples. Get over it.

          Personally? Marriage scares the bejesus outta me. And I don't even believe in Jesus! (Silly goyim) If some gays want to get married, what's it to you?
          This is a CIVIL RIGHTS issue, not your piddly little "MY G_d said this, BWAAAAAH!"

          SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Get the govt outta the marriage biz entirely. Take away the tax credits, take away all the so-called marriage benefits. Reduce it to a power of attorney to ensure hospital visitation rights and final disposition. First Amendment, Constitution, take it SERIOUSLY for once
          On a philosophical level, I think you make some valid points here. But there's the political and social realities to deal with, whether we like it or not.

          As open-minded as I would like to think myself as being, I have to admit some trepidation to the concept of marriage being reduced to the power of attorney. What sort of impact will this have on future generations and their view of unions between a couple, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual? Will there be less of a reverence for the institutions of marriage, if such relationships are boiled down to little more than a legal status that could similarly exist between that of a parent and child, or between siblings. Will couples take their marriage vows as seriously, as if the divorce rates in this country weren't already high enough? If marriage is boiled down to secular and financial considerations and stripped of its sanctity, would this give way to the thinking that polygamy is okay? Or casual spouse swapping?

          Let me make it clear that I'm not against gay marriage. It seems that this is where the country is headed to anyway, no matter what our positions on this issue. But in the process of granting to gay couples the same rights, status, and recognition that married hetero couples enjoy, I don't see why the baby has to be thrown out with the bath water. I do think there are good reasons for states to continue issuing marriage licenses and to perpetuate the institution of marriage as being between a couple that enters into the relationship with the intention that it will be a serious committment. Otherwise, I fear the impact that this may have on the stability of families, which are the most important and fundamental units of our society.
          Last edited by Frankie's Market; May 8, 2009, 03:57 AM.
          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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          • #50
            Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

            In many countries, couples must have a CIVIL ceremony to be considered legally married. A religious ceremony is not required and is left up to individual choice & desire. A religious ceremony does not make someone married legally - otherwise, why would they have to get that marriage license?

            We need to get past our beliefs that "marriage" = church = God. There is more than one definition of marriage.
            Last edited by anapuni808; May 8, 2009, 10:23 AM. Reason: to correct my terrible spelling :)
            "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
            – Sydney J. Harris

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

              Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
              We need to get past our beliefs that "marriage" = church = God. There is more than one definition of marriage.
              I don't know if you are responding to my previous post, but if you are, let me say this.

              When I'm talking about the sanctity of marriage, I'm not necessarily talking about religious precepts and beliefs. A couple who happens to be atheists can view their marriage vows to each other as being sacred. Not everybody who stays faithful to their spouse has the "fear of God" in them, right?

              One does not have to believe in God in order to hold one's marriage in sanctity.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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              • #52
                Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                I guess I was sort of replying to you and sort of just spouting off with my very important viewpoints.

                I'm upset about what happened with HB444 and the way it was handled by the senate but there is nothing to be done about it now until next session.

                So, I'm just going to go away & shut up. I'm sure that will be appreciated by many.
                "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                – Sydney J. Harris

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                  I'm all for anything that promotes, engenders or aids in the preservation of love. I think marriage and/or civil unions is a good thing.

                  On that note so can polygamy, polyandry, polyamory or whatever, as long as they promote love and harmony. For that matter even casual sex often promotes long-lasting love - in my experience, anyway.

                  As for government benefits, the government is going to do whatever it must to promote its own aims. Right now, for whatever vague reason, the government thinks that monogamous heterosexual marriages promote their aims, so they apply sanctions. It's like a bribe, "Do it our way and you get benefits." The government out to consider population pressures - excessive population growth - next time they consider gay marriage.
                  Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                  ~ ~
                  Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                  Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                  Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                    What really should be done is to work toward abolishing the special relationship that marriage enjoys with regard to the law. Why should married persons enjoy privileges others cannot? Overthrowing the legal status of marriage is much more fair than including more, yet not all, other possible subgroups into that legally privileged status.

                    For that matter, why are senior citizens allowed discounts that others cannot enjoy? Oh, what a cruel and perverse ass the law is.
                    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                      Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                      For that matter, why are senior citizens allowed discounts that others cannot enjoy?
                      Fixed incomes - less available spending money than someone younger and employed - or how about simple respect for the elders of our society, and what they have contributed? If we're fortunate, s'ed, you and I shall be elders ourselves someday.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                        Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                        For that matter, why are senior citizens allowed discounts that others cannot enjoy?
                        I believe that some seniors choose to live together and not marry because they will lose benefits/money.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                          In some states (I do not believe Hawaii is among them), people advertise helping people get "loving divorces" so that a spouse can use Medicaid or governmental benefits (usually elderly people needing long term care) while the other spouse can keep most of the assets.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                            It was very telling that the greatest number of red-shirts (anti-HB444) people came from churches. The devout cram their faith down our throats once again. I wonder if they reported their lobbying expenses? I doubt it. As in years past they shrilly went on about how gay marriage in any form will bring our society to its knees. Oh heavens! Whatever shall I do?!

                            As long as religion is allowed to be a part of this discussion it will continue to be distorted. Sure religion teaches some people to live better lives, but compared to the legions of salvation-addled jerks it creates the payoff is pretty slim.

                            To reiterate: Get Govt out of the religion business, and keep religion out of Govt business. That and close the religion tax-loophole :P

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                            • #59
                              Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                              I'm on the same side of the issue as Jewlipino, but without quite the heated opinion of churches; and remember, I am an atheist. (Though I am also comfortable with her perspective - it is as valuable as any.)

                              Without her permission, though, I would like to adapt one of her comments: "As long as religion is allowed to be a part of this discussion it will continue to be distorted." Sadly, this is an issue that will be distorted, whether by religious values or not. Acceptance and understanding of homosexuality in today's world is at the same level that we saw racial issues not that long ago.

                              These days, most people in America would find it offensive or wrong to forbid marriages simply for reasons of race (research "miscegenation"). The day will come that homosexual marriage will be an accepted way of life in this country, and another day will find us looking back and wondering how we could have once again treated a segment of our citizenry in such an uneducated fashion.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                                Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                                Fixed incomes - less available spending money than someone younger and employed - or how about simple respect for the elders of our society, and what they have contributed? If we're fortunate, s'ed, you and I shall be elders ourselves someday.
                                Why would you respect someone just by virtue of their having lived beyond a certain age? They may not be worthy of respect and certainly aren't worthy just on the basis of age. I just can't buy into the 'respect' angle. Mass murderers, cheats and swindlers of all sorts may live long enough to earn that sort of respect - is it really worth a discount? Besides, if I respect persons with curly red hair, should I really be allowed to charge them less for a given product or service? If blacks have a shorter average life span than other racial groups, aren't age-based discounts racial discrimination as well as age discrimination?

                                Fixed income? Look again, more and more 'senior citizens' are working well beyond that discount age. As well, senior citizens as a group have higher incomes than the youngest age groups. The 'need' angle just doesn't cut the mustard either - rich senior citizens get the discount; poor non-seniors don't.

                                No, this sort of discrimination is just plain perverse. As I near the age of eligibility it remains a bitter pill whenever I consider the matter.

                                Sorry for the digression....
                                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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