Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

[Kaonohi]

Should Religious Vigilantism Be Legalized?

It was very telling that the greatest number of red-shirts (anti-HB444) people came from churches. The devout cram their faith down our throats once again. I wonder if they reported their lobbying expenses? I doubt it. As in years past they shrilly went on about how gay marriage in any form will bring our society to its knees. Oh heavens! Whatever shall I do?!

As long as religion is allowed to be a part of this discussion it will continue to be distorted. Sure religion teaches some people to live better lives, but compared to the legions of salvation-addled jerks it creates the payoff is pretty slim.

To reiterate: Get Govt out of the religion business, and keep religion out of Govt business. That and close the religion tax-loophole :P

I believe in freedom of religion - but this is going too far!
Sure they have a right to their opinion, but that right stops where another's opinion begins. Kinda like you got a right to swing your fist, but that right stops where someone else's body begins.

STOP shoving YOUR superstitious beliefs down everyone else's throat!
Believe what you will, but let us have our beliefs, too!

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

I'm on the same side of the issue as Jewlipino, but without quite the heated opinion of churches; and remember, I am an atheist. (Though I am also comfortable with her perspective - it is as valuable as any.)

Without her permission, though, I would like to adapt one of her comments: "As long as religion is allowed to be a part of this discussion it will continue to be distorted." Sadly, this is an issue that will be distorted, whether by religious values or not. Acceptance and understanding of homosexuality in today's world is at the same level that we saw racial issues not that long ago.

These days, most people in America would find it offensive or wrong to forbid marriages simply for reasons of race (research "miscegenation"). The day will come that homosexual marriage will be an accepted way of life in this country, and another day will find us looking back and wondering how we could have once again treated a segment of our citizenry in such an uneducated fashion.

Love the proactive use of the feminine pronoun given lack of evidence either way. Very progressive Leo. That being said I'm a he, and an atheist. My screen name is just my cultural and genetic heritages squashed together. I have friends and acquaintances who deserve the right to see their loved ones in the hospital, make the hard decisions that only those who are close to you should make, be inheritors of their estates. This is civil rights, and just as with women, black people, native americans, and every other minority that has had it tough, it's going to take time for everyone to come around. Hell we haven't even licked racism yet, there's neo-nazis and klan members on facebook!

Yeah I'm a bit hard on churches, organized religion in general really. When they're done right they can be a center for the community, but when less than thoughtful people harness that unity for... this... it makes me sick. Nothing is so wrong as righteousness.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Love the proactive use of the feminine pronoun given lack of evidence either way. Very progressive Leo. That being said I'm a he, and an atheist. My screen name is just my cultural and genetic heritages squashed together.

I am so very, very sorry, J. I thought I had gotten your gender clear from a long-ago post; apparently not. Sincere apologies, sir, for giving you an unrequested sex-change!

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

no offense taken

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Going back to the reporting issue. I'm pretty sure the Hawaii Family Forum, a lobbying org, spent money on this recent onslaught on civic cordiality.

This is their report from '07, when a similar bill faced similar opposition. They said they only spent $1240. Sounds kind of dubious considering what I saw there for the last three years.

This is what they spent last year, only $450. Again suspiciously low.

I can't wait to see what their report for this year's session looks like.

Note: There are links and official associations all over HFF's page to the Hawaii Catholic Conference, NOT a registered lobbying org, but seems to have awful close ties, is the Catholic Church non-profit?

[Peshkwe]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

The Catholic Church is a 'Corporation Sole' just like the Mormon Church and the British Monarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

The concept of corporation sole originated as a means to the orderly transfer of church or religious society property, serving to keep title within the church or religious society. In order to keep the religious property from being treated as the estate of the vicar of the church, the property was titled to the office of the corporation sole. In the case of the Roman Catholic church, the property is usually titled to the diocesan bishop, who serves in the office of the corporation sole. The Roman Catholic Church continues to use the corporation sole for holding title for property, and as recently as 2002, split a Californian diocese into many, smaller corporations sole, with each parish priest becoming his own corporation sole, thus limiting the liability of the diocese.

Each Diocese/church would then apply for their own 501(c) designation.

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-b...l_b_41166.html

[AlohaKine]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

I have a feeling that the civil union guys will win one day. Because they don't give up.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

The Catholic Church is a 'Corporation Sole' just like the Mormon Church and the British Monarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole



Each Diocese/church would then apply for their own 501(c) designation.

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-b...l_b_41166.html

VERY interested. Thanks for the link

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

I have a feeling that the civil union guys will win one day. Because they don't give up.

I agree with you here, AlohaKine. If someone truly believes in a cause, they shouldn't give up; you yourself have chosen an important battle regarding smoker's rights, and I don't expect you to stop.

So, if you're willing to risk it, will you post here what you think about the civil unions issue, beyond your assessment of eventual success?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Yeah I'm a bit hard on churches, organized religion in general really. When they're done right they can be a center for the community, but when less than thoughtful people harness that unity for... this... it makes me sick. Nothing is so wrong as righteousness.

I don't think the problem is a church promoting its form of "righteousness," as much as it is, practicing intolerance. And while you are right about some (not all) religious organizations injecting fear and intolerance into the same-sex marriage debate, let's be honest here. Churches do not have a monopoly on intolerance and hateful words. Perez Hilton, anyone?

In 2009, the idea that either side of the debate can bludgeon, bully, or intimidate the opposing side to settle the matter,.... just ain't happening. But I do know this. Polls show that the majority of people under the age of 40 support gay marriage, while the opposite is true of people over the age of 40. So if nothing else, gay marriage proponents have time on their side.

I have a feeling that the civil union guys will win one day. Because they don't give up.

They will win, but it won't stop there. Not until full marriage rights and recognition is achieved.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

As far as I can tell the Hawaii Family Forum and the Hawaii Catholic Conference are the same thing. That and there are advocacy issues and positions all over the Hawaii Catholic Church's website. It raises some serious questions as to how seriously the Church here in HI takes the IRS rules governing political meddling by religious orgs. There might be enough there for a substantive complaint, tho there's no telling if the IRS will actually follow up. Probably should send something to the State Ethics Commission too, hell they've got Dennis freaking Arakaki at HFF/HCC, he should be registered as their lobbyist, but isn't.

[salmoned]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Well, the 'time is on their side' argument holds only if those younger individuals don't change their minds as they grow older and gain more experience and understanding - not a very bright prospect for the future of our youth, eh?

[TuNnL]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Polls show that the majority of people under the age of 40 support gay marriage, while the opposite is true of people over the age of 40. So if nothing else, gay marriage proponents have time on their side.

Obviously with the age reference, you aren’t referring to the poll that started this thread. Would you be so kind as to post a link to these poll(s) that reflect the sentiment you claim? I’d be interested to see the demographics and size of their sampling.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

And their methodology. Most of the time even if the samples and demographics are ok the methodology is crap.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Obviously with the age reference, you aren’t referring to the poll that started this thread. Would you be so kind as to post a link to these poll(s) that reflect the sentiment you claim? I’d be interested to see the demographics and size of their sampling.

The generational poll I was referring to was reported on CNN. The poll survey actually breaks down the age groups at 18-34/35-49/50-64/65+. Some of the CNN commentators debating the issue on Wolf Blitzer's Situation Room generalized the results by talking about people "under the age of 40" as being more likely to support gay marriage, which is how I remembered it. But if you want to be more accurate, the CNN poll reports that a majority of the respondents under the age of 35 support gay marriage.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-gay-marriage/

A new national poll suggests that a majority of Americans oppose legalizing same sex marriages — but there's a vast generational divide on the issue.

Fifty-four percent of people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll released Monday say that marriages between gay or lesbian couples should not be recognized as valid, with 44 percent suggests they should be considered legal.
Among those 18 to 34 years old, 58 percent said same-sex marriages should be legal. That number drops to 42 percent among respondents 35 to 49 years old, and to 41 percent for those 50 to 64 years of age. The poll indicates that only 24 percent of Americans 65 and older support recognizing same-sex marriages as valid.

Well, the 'time is on their side' argument holds only if those younger individuals don't change their minds as they grow older and gain more experience and understanding - not a very bright prospect for the future of our youth, eh?

Beyond a very tiny percentage (if even that), I don't think anyone has to worry about younger people changing their minds on this. Jewlipino is right to compare the gay marriage issue to that of civil rights. In the 1960s, there was a similar generational divide on the issue. A higher percentage of younger people were supportive of civil rights legislation than were older folks. And generally speaking, most people who supported the civil rights movement back then haven't reversed their positions 40-45 years later, have they? Neither is that likely to be the case for younger people who currently support same-sex marriage. If they support it today, then you can likely take it to the bank that they will continue to support it well into the future.