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Thread: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    A very interesting article at this link in today's Advertiser, written by one of the founders of the SuperFerry.
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    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
    All I said was "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore" and then all kinds of stuff starting appearing on my screen.
    Well, no ... that's not all you said. You chided other posters with part of your first post (emphasis mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
    I'm sure the 236 people who just got laid off really care about the politics of it all. They just want jobs again. It's great to preach about ethics and all when you're sitting comfy, but when it affects your well-being on a personal level...
    That doesn't exactly leave you with the cleanest possible hands. But you are right in that it sucks for those people.

  3. #103

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Palolo lolo View Post
    Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.
    I'll ask again - why does it matter? Who cares if it has military applications?

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
    Neighbor island residents appreciate the higher prices for imported goods. You can see the difference in prices from the advertisement by comparing the Oahu paper against a neighbor island paper with stores such as Longs, Foodland, and Star Market.
    It's the sacrifice you make to live in the place that you love.

    Not like the HSF would reduce shipping costs (and retail prices) for goods sold at the stores you mentioned. It's a ferry, not a barge.
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  5. #105
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    Default Re: The latest lame justification

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    The HSF actually did not make dock modifications, that's the main reason behind using barges to load/unload vehicles. I find it equally a rub in the wrong way when arguments against the HSF are made with gross generalizations as well. Perhaps there would be less confrontation over the issue if the anti-ferry stance tone down the military conspiracies and distorting of facts such as dock modifications?
    The issue is more one of public vs. private money. You're right in that Superferry didn't make dock modifications. The State did, and by doing so the whole project became subject to EIS. Just in case the argument is floated that, "only the State should have to do an EIS if that's the case", HEPA prohibits compartmentalizing projects in order to avoid EIS's. So by convincing the Gov and DOT to make the dock modifications with State money, HSF dug its own grave. Read the Hawaii Supreme Court cases, it's all there, so how am I distorting facts? And what's with the implication that I am anti-ferry? I've stated several times, and will again, I support inter-island ferry service in Hawaii! Good enough? Or do I have to say it again?

  6. #106
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    Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry -New York Times 3/22/09

    Quote Originally Posted by Palolo lolo View Post
    Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us...=Hawaii&st=cse
    Mahalo for that, Palolo lolo. I’m glad one of our nation’s more prominent newspapers has helped to shed light on the agenda of Lehman and Co. Some of the more telling passages from the NYT story:

    In its 19 months of sporadic operations, the Alakai — an $85 million, 350-foot aluminum catamaran that sliced through some of the world’s roughest seas at 40 miles per hour — is widely thought to have lost money for Hawai‘i Superferry. The passenger-vehicle ferry usually operated well below the 50 percent capacity that the company had designated as its break-even point. For much of the winter, it operated at about 25 percent capacity, according to figures released by the company.

    [...]

    Why the company chose to risk operating without an environmental review, which would have taken the better part of a year, has been the matter of debate across the state, with Mr. Lehman’s background leading to speculation that Hawai‘i Superferry was primarily hoping to prove itself to the United States military.

    Nearly two years ago, a former chief executive officer of Austal USA, an Alabama shipyard that built the Alakai, was quoted in a local weekly, Pacific Business News, as saying the ship was too big for its market of 1.3 million people.

    “I just worry about getting enough business to cover costs because of the sheer size of it,” said the executive, Alan Lerchbacker.

    Mr. Lerchbacker said that he had suggested Hawai‘i Superferry order a 230-foot vessel but that the company instead ordered two 350-foot models. The Alakai traveled between O‘ahu and Maui; the second ferry, the Huakai, was completed last week and had been scheduled to link Oahu and the Big Island.

    State Representative Hermina M. Morita, a Democrat and chairwoman of the Committee on Energy and Environmental Protection, said she never thought either ferry would be profitable.

    “You look at the players involved,” Ms. Morita said. “You have to question their motives.”

    In November, Austal USA was awarded a contract to build up to 10 military versions of the ferry.

    [...]

    Austal USA, with a shipyard in Mobile, Ala., was created in 2001. “They have managed to become a major player in a very short time,” said Robert Button, a naval analyst with the RAND Corporation.

    [...]

    The contract calls for one ship for the Army, with an option for four more for the Army and five for the Navy, for a total of $1.6 billion.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  7. #107

    Default Re: The latest lame justification

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
    The issue is more one of public vs. private money. You're right in that Superferry didn't make dock modifications. The State did, and by doing so the whole project became subject to EIS. Just in case the argument is floated that, "only the State should have to do an EIS if that's the case", HEPA prohibits compartmentalizing projects in order to avoid EIS's. So by convincing the Gov and DOT to make the dock modifications with State money, HSF dug its own grave. Read the Hawaii Supreme Court cases, it's all there, so how am I distorting facts? And what's with the implication that I am anti-ferry? I've stated several times, and will again, I support inter-island ferry service in Hawaii! Good enough? Or do I have to say it again?
    Noted on your position in regards to having an inter-island ferry service. And I apologize for implicating you're anti-ferry, I was actually transitioning to another topic that I felt related to being rubbed in the wrong way.

    Back to dock modifications, you lost me on the private vs public money issue. Are you suggesting if HSF paid for its own barges, then an EIS is not an issue? Was an EIS done for the ferry terminal at Pier 19? If not, where does that one fall under as Pier 19 was built years before the HSF showed up?

    You may consider it as a rub but it's double standards to have other operators such as Matson or YB not conduct an EIS. I know your position is pro-EIS for everyone but the argument of double standards has merit. If there is no single standard, what's the point of this witch hunt with the ferry?

    Now I am transitioning to another topic that's not directed at you in particular.

    The NY Times article has a serious flaw with the military connections. If this ferry was meant to prove itself to the US Navy, and Austal wanted to win the JHSV contract, why would executive Alan Lerchbacker of Austal attempt to persuade HSF to build (2) 230 foot vessels instead of the 350? Then you would be proving with a wrong vessel?

  8. #108

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Posted on the Advertiser's Breaking News today:

    "The Hawai'i Superferry's Alakai vessel is set to depart from Honolulu Harbor to Mobile, Alabama at 3:30 p.m. today.
    "The Alakai's move to Mobile "is to position her for future employment," Superferry officials said.
    "The ship will travel 7,600 miles across the Pacific and through the Panama Canal."





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    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  10. #110
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    Lightbulb Re: The latest lame justification

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    If this ferry was meant to prove itself to the US Navy, and Austal wanted to win the JHSV contract, why would executive Alan Lerchbacker of Austal attempt to persuade HSF to build (2) 230 foot vessels instead of the 350?
    To cover his @ss, so that if and when Austal USA was selected, he could point to this conversation as proof it was Superferry officials, and not Austal USA, that had alterior motives. All of the players knew questions were being asked of them from the very beginning. I doubt with apologist propagandists like joshuatree around, that Lehman himself will ever be called to account for his misdeeds. Kind of like George W. Bush.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  11. #111

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    File this under the category of "hollow victories."

    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...ING03/90407056

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9


  13. #113

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Abandon ships

    Ok, let's see if all those military conspiracies will come true or not. The stage's been set.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    It'll be repainted at an undisclosed Naval yard with stealth tech and be back cruising in Hawaiian waters without us knowing it...

  15. #115
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    Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Abandon ships

    Ok, let's see if all those military conspiracies will come true or not. The stage's been set.
    Again, joshuatree would have us absurdly believe that the “military conspiracy” that culminated in the awarding of a $1.6 billion contract to Austal USA for the manufacture of 10 JHSV (Joint High Speed Vessels) that are essentially Superferries with helicopter landing pads and military armament, has somehow NOT already come true. Here’s further proof, direct from the mouth of Superferry builder and Austal CEO Bob Browning:

    “...the Hawaii Super Ferry contract really was quite unusual. We were actually helping that company get started and put $30 million of mezzanine debt into the business which then allowed us to contract to build two large catamaran ferries for them. And strategically was important because it allowed us to build our workforce up in Mobile, Alabama which then allowed us to win the Joint High Speed Vessel program which is a very close derivative to that whole forum. So while it was unfortunate that Hawaii Super Ferry filed for Chapter 11, it was an unusual thing that we normally wouldn’t do, but it did position us for a much more lucrative contract with the Navy.

    Last edited by TuNnL; August 29th, 2009 at 12:41 PM. Reason: inclusion of link

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    There is nothing wrong with having a firm like Austral build ships for the U.S. military.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Again, joshuatree would have us absurdly believe that the “military conspiracy” that culminated in the awarding of a $1.6 billion contract to Austal USA for the manufacture of 10 JHSV (Joint High Speed Vessels) that are essentially Superferries with helicopter landing pads and military armament, has somehow NOT already come true. Here’s further proof, direct from the mouth of Superferry builder and Austal CEO Bob Browning:

    “...the Hawaii Super Ferry contract really was quite unusual. We were actually helping that company get started and put $30 million of mezzanine debt into the business which then allowed us to contract to build two large catamaran ferries for them. And strategically was important because it allowed us to build our workforce up in Mobile, Alabama which then allowed us to win the Joint High Speed Vessel program which is a very close derivative to that whole forum. So while it was unfortunate that Hawaii Super Ferry filed for Chapter 11, it was an unusual thing that we normally wouldn’t do, but it did position us for a much more lucrative contract with the Navy.

    The conspiracy theory I'm referring to is that specifically the two SF boats were secretly built for the US Navy and the whole ferry operation was nothing more than a scam to get taxpayers to pay for them. This remains to be seen. I'm still waiting for the Alakai and Huakai to be repainted in navy grey.

    You also forget, it's not HSF who decided out of the blue to pull out the service. Anti-ferry folks with their self-destructive lawsuits did. There's no spin to that fact. So when and if the two boats become naval boats, anti-ferry folks were a part of that conspiracy.

    How Austal wishes to spend it's money to help HSF so that it will help position themselves in the long run isn't something new. Many companies grease the wheels to put themselves ahead of the competition for military contracts. Airbus announced that if they win the US Airforce tanker fleet replacement bid, they will shift assembly of their A330 frieghters to the US. Airbus ended up winning the tanker contract. That's not military conspiracy, that's called business strategy. Happens everyday in private sector business deals. But they like to use euphemisms such as "strategic partnership" or "synergy".

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Huh? There's no conspiracy if the parties involved didn't CONSPIRE beforehand to achieve their objective(s). So anti-ferry folk cannot have been involved in a conspiracy unless they agreed with the superferry folk to mount a campaign against the superferry before the superferry concept was introduced to the state. I just find that idea a bit far-fetched.

    joshuatree, your reasoning on this point is faulty - no matter the fate of the vessels, the anti-ferry group was not involved in a conspiracy with Austal and/or HSF.
    Last edited by salmoned; September 3rd, 2009 at 11:08 AM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  19. #119
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    Post Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    It's just too bad we all lost the service!
    There are inter-island ferries running all around the Pacific.
    Hawaii is just asinine (inanely foolish) once again.
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

  20. #120

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    I always thought that a ferry service between island was a great idea.
    Much better than a rail system on oahu.
    I had really planed to try it. Really sorry I missed my chance.
    I was wondering if anyone is investigating into whether the airlines and matson had a hand in sinking the Superferry?????
    It would seem that they would have the most to lose. So it would stand to reason, they would be the ones to do anything to sink the Superferry.

  21. #121
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Remember that hurricane that almost hit us a few weeks ago? If the hurricane had hit one of the outer islands the SuperFerry would have been an outrageously big help in transporting emergency equipment and supplies and personnel, but nooooooo...
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    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  22. #122

    Default So...

    ...what, if any, are the plans for the SF's large and possibly unusable for anything else ramp that just sits at Pier 19?
    That is valuable harbor space. Is the long gone company paying for it?
    Why didn't they take it with them?
    Are they planning on taking it at some point?
    Will it have to be sunk as an artificial reef?
    Do they have other ramps at the outer island Harbors hogging pier space?

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Hey Ron, why don't you start a 'save the SF ramps' campaign? They're quite valuable from a historical perspective, not to mention how much cheaper to maintain than the FoC ...
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  24. #124

    Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    ...what, if any, are the plans for the SF's large and possibly unusable for anything else ramp that just sits at Pier 19?
    That is valuable harbor space.
    Amen to that! Something that is essentially obsolete and useless shouldn't be taking up valuable waterfront space that could be utilized for something else. And those ramps have been sittin' there unused for about half a year now?

    Reminds me about a certain old saltwater swimming pool that is literally crumbling apart, beyond repair, and hasn't been used for anything for the last 30 years. That bacterial cesspool is likewise taking up valuable beach space.

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Hey Ron, why don't you start a 'save the SF ramps' campaign? They're quite valuable from a historical perspective, not to mention how much cheaper to maintain than the FoC ...

  25. #125
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    Post Re: So...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    1)...what, if any, are the plans for the SF's large and possibly unusable for anything else ramp that just sits at Pier 19?
    2)Do they have other ramps at the outer island Harbors hogging pier space?
    1) Didn't the 'State' err 'us' foot the bill to build the ramps? I think so.
    2) There's another ramp in Kahului Harbor also.
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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