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Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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  • #61
    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    As you've already shown, the JHSV concept was already demo'ed with the Westpac Express in Japan. There is no need to re-demo here in Hawaii.
    That's absurd! HSF is a separate company under Lehman & Co.’s control. The “success” of the Westpac Express just made it that much easier for HSF to secure loans from the feds and to raise capital from willing investors (and that much more important for Lehman to get his hands on a toy of his own).

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    If the military wanted a dedicated JHSV transport in Hawaii, they don't need this elaborate scheme.
    Who said it was just for Hawai‘i? Once again, READ the links, particularly since I quoted the paragraph that addresses this very subject.

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    It's really not far fetch at all to have a civilian transport conduct side business with the military to beef up the financial bottom line.
    And along those lines it’s even more profitable to have a military transport vessel for sale to navies worldwide... with an incidental side business of civilian transport.

    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
    if you were tasked with a multi-million project, are you gonna seriously tell me you're not going to devise plan B? Now that ferry opponents seem to have killed commercial service, they’ve pushed them to plan B.
    I’m not convinced. IMHO, it’s more likely your “plan B” was actually Plan A all along. The “Superferry™ inter-island ferry service” was just a ruse to get the state to pay for the harbor improvements required to successfully run their demo. Unfortunately for Hawai‘i taxpayers, it looks like it worked like a charm.

    More from the article I previously quoted:

    ‘The Superferry is strong enough to take Stryker vehicles,’ Lehman told Pacific Business News (PBN) in March 2005. ‘HSF provided the Army with a cost analysis and expects to negotiate a long-term contract,’ PBN reported. On Jan. 7 of this year, HSF carried Hawai’i National Guard heavy equipment to Maui for removal of storm debris.

    While providing passenger and cargo service between O‘ahu and Maui, the Superferry’s owners are able to conduct sea trials aimed at demonstrating the high-speed craft’s endurance and performance in rough open seas and littoral waters. Its need to quickly accrue time in the water could explain why HSF plans to offer a second daily run to Maui, even though it’s presently carrying only a third of the passenger load it projected, according to documents filed with the state Public Utilities Commission.

    While using Hawaiian waters as a proving ground, HSF has been able to develop and test its prototype vessel with little financial risk to investors, thanks to a federally guaranteed loan of $143 million that covers much of the $190 million cost to build the two fast ferries, and $40 million in state support for related harbor projects.

    [...]

    The procurement environment is indeed heating up. Over the next five years, the Navy plans to buy eight JHSV, which also will be used by the Army and Marine Corps.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

      Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
      That's absurd! HSF is a separate company under Lehman & Co.’s control. The “success” of the Westpac Express just made it that much easier for HSF to secure loans from the feds and to raise capital from willing investors (and that much more important for Lehman to get his hands on a toy of his own).

      Who said it was just for Hawai‘i? Once again, READ the links, particularly since I quoted the paragraph that addresses this very subject.

      And along those lines it’s even more profitable to have a military transport vessel for sale to navies worldwide... with an incidental side business of civilian transport.

      I’m not convinced. IMHO, it’s more likely your “plan B” was actually Plan A all along. The “Superferry™ inter-island ferry service” was just a ruse to get the state to pay for the harbor improvements required to successfully run their demo. Unfortunately for Hawai‘i taxpayers, it looks like it worked like a charm.

      More from the article I previously quoted:
      MV Westpac Express was built by Austal, the same ship builder as the HSF, nothing exceptionally different to be demo'ed by HSF.

      How is a used, bankrupt vessel more profitable? If the military buys it, it be pennies to the dollar like what had happened to Spirit of Ontario I. Is that the conspiracy theory you are trying to paint? If that's the case, isn't the military still short 6 vessels since the JHSV program envisions 8?

      Your suggestion that "plan B" was actually "plan A" makes even less sense. HSF did not shut down on its own accord. The likes of Sierra Club did. The $40 million the state spent was a loan, HSF had to repay over 22 years. And since the HSF ran a commercial service in the islands, had it been allowed to keep running and become successful, your suggestion that the military ruse for a transport isn't just for plying Hawaiian waters doesn't make sense either. The vessel's fast but it ain't a jet so you can't leave the islands and be back for next day's scheduled service just like that.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

        Originally posted by Jewlipino View Post
        Welllllll not really.... Executive Orders are not laws anymore than a Bush the 2nd signing statement is a line-item veto (also unconstitutional :P ).

        Now to return to the reference above. Executive Order 9066 stands on dubious legal footing,
        An exec order has the force of law. And 9066 was unconstitutional. That's well beyond dubious. Unless you don't mind being rounded up for being of a particular racial extraction, having everything you owned taken away, and sent to a prison without a trial for a crime you didn't commit.

        To demand an EIS for the Superferry was also dubious. The fact remains that in 11 months of operation there was no downside. If an EIS is done (moot point by now) you can make a pretty good bet there would be few negative effects predicted, too.

        Maybe Lingle should apologize for trying to fast-track this project. But if an EIS is conducted and fears against the Superferry is determined to be unfounded, who is going to apologize to and compensate the 200 people who lost their jobs? What about the corporation that lost millions of dollars invested in this state? Or the businesses that are being affected by the sudden loss of an efficient way to transport their goods?

        Lots of examples of rule breakers that can be nailed on your priniciple of laws needing to be strictly enforced. Kihei had a set of zoning rules where there was to be no construction makai of the highway.

        But as it is with local politics, exemptions were made. And once the door was opened it couldn't be shut. Should all those condos and hotels be bulldozed tomorrow? Should the beaches returned to their natural state by the end of April? Nevermind how much was invested. Or the jobs at stake. Or the possible negative effects on the economy or tourism. Just get it back to how it was supposed to be, based upon the original zoning regulations for that part of Maui. That's what will happen if you go strictly by the book.

        And that's what happened to the Superferry.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

          More finger-wagging and lecturing from the peanut gallery.
          Again, it's easy to have all the answers when you're sitting comfy. And who's talking about turning all of Hawaii into a concrete jungle? This is ONE case, ONE particular instance. Stay with this instance.

          My ONLY point was with the rising unemployment, and the economy not getting better anytime soon, I was just mentioning that it really sucked for the people got stuck in the middle of a battle that they did not start, but got affected the most. Hawaii doesn't need any more people out of work. I know it's possible and most likely probable to survive unemployment, but in these days, it's getting really hard to find a job. I'm painfully aware of this.

          Can't think of anything creative this time

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

            Originally posted by surlygirly View Post
            Again, it's easy to have all the answers when you're sitting comfy. And who's talking about turning all of Hawaii into a concrete jungle? This is ONE case, ONE particular instance.
            Yes. We are talking about circumventing the laws for ONE company.

            And that is the exact reason why the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled against Lingle and the SF.

            One job or 200, the high court will not compromise its legal principles.
            This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
              MV Westpac Express was built by Austal, the same ship builder as the HSF, nothing exceptionally different to be demo'ed by HSF.
              How do you know that? Do you have the blueprints for HSF? Considering U.S. Navy and Army representatives toured the Alakai throughout its construction as part of the ongoing evaluation of potential JHSV platforms, it stands to reason they were (are) actively considering it as potentially better or worse then MV Westpac Express.

              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
              How is a used, bankrupt vessel more profitable? If the military buys it, it be pennies to the dollar like what had happened to Spirit of Ontario I.
              Here’s yet another baseless assumption that compares apples to oranges. The Spirit of Ontario was a Canadian vessel plagued by damages incurred during a PR tour, as well as delays in building harbor improvements. It was purchased by a private entity through loans from Australia. No where in that equation is the U.S. military, which has always payed top dollar for its ships. If there’s one thing we can count on in good times and bad, it’s the U.S. military-industrial complex’ propensity to splurge taxpayer dollars.

              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
              isn't the military still short 6 vessels since the JHSV program envisions 8?
              Brilliant observation. FYI, winning bidders for military contracts typically begin building jet planes, tanks, and joint high speed vessels after the contract is awarded to said bidder. As explained in this official press release distributed by the U.S. Navy Office of Corporate Communications, bids for the final design were awarded to three separate firms: Superferry builder Austal USA, Bath Iron Works, and Bollinger Shipyards Inc.

              If you still don’t get it, what this means is, the military still isn’t necessarily convinced the Superferry is the best design for the final JHSV. But they’re willing to give Austal USA a shot at building one that is. Or two. Or eight.

              Your suggestion that "plan B" was actually "plan A" makes even less sense. HSF did not shut down on its own accord. The likes of Sierra Club did.
              Hogwash! Like LikaNui pointed out earlier, HSF could have appealed the court’s decision all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Maybe the Sierra Club would have then filed for an injunction as LikaNui also postulated. In fact, it seems most have missed Helen’s observation that even without any litigation or court action, Act 2, the very law that allows HSF to operate in the first place, was set to expire in May. But to be clear, HSF decided not to press the issue, and shut down of its own accord. Period. Show me documentation that says otherwise.

              since the HSF ran a commercial service in the islands, had it been allowed to keep running and become successful
              Here is yet another fantasy scenario that 11 months of service by HSF proved to be impossible. Not only did HSF never make a profit, they never filled their boat. Imagine that. Not a single voyage. I believe the closest they came was the FREE trip provided to military servicemen and their families.
              Last edited by TuNnL; March 18, 2009, 06:44 PM. Reason: accurate linkage

              We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

              — U.S. President Bill Clinton
              USA TODAY, page 2A
              11 March 1993

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                If you want to assign blame, blame the Lingle Administration and the State Department of Transportation.They were the ones that determined the harbor improvements made to accommodate the Superferry were exempt from the requirements of HRS Chapter 343.

                Procedures are in place to protect the public.They should be adhered to and not circumvented, especially for a single one company.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                  People either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area. I'm done with this thread. Go on and continue your Superferry bashing discussion. More than likely by tomorrow it will all be over completely except for the blame, which will continue forever.
                  I'm still here. Are you?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                    Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                    But as it is with local politics, exemptions were made. And once the door was opened it couldn't be shut.
                    My point exactly. Thank you!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                      Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                      How do you know that? Do you have the blueprints for HSF?
                      Have you even bothered to visit Austal's website? All of their passenger/vehicle catamarans are essentially the same. Specs are there too if you want to study up. It's not a top secret F22 program, it's a civilian transport ship that can have military applications.

                      Baseless assumption? I see a lot of that coming from you. A sale of a used vessel in financial POV is the same regardless of private entity or military. The only stretch to create your "ruse" theory is if the military planned this multi-year "ruse" just so it can buy two catamarans for pennies to the dollar. But that's an awful lot of work. And like you said yourself, the military spends money when it wants. Doing this "ruse" makes zero sense, nada.

                      I don't know what press release you're reading (link did not work) but this press release from the navy indicates only Austal received the contract, not three ship builders as you say. The JHSV program clearly stipulates the ships will have a flight deck. This makes the HSF not suitable for the JHSV program. Are you going to fall back on the excuse that Austal needed boats to perform sea testing? Because if that's your theory, again, the MV Westpac Express already provides test data in that area. Austal also has built numerous commercial vessels of the same nature in service around the world for data culling. The navy also has HSV Swift, HSV Joint venture, and TSV-1X Spearhead for testing purposes.

                      If this was an elaborate military ruse as you go on about, why was HSF's commercial operation shut down by Sierra club / Supreme Court? They are all part of the military ruse?Your arugment that HSF could challenge in the Supreme Court, etc etc and they didn't means the military ruse is plan A is more tail wagging the dog. As a private enterprise, there is a threshold where you cut your loses and deem the venture unsuccessful. Filing a case in the Supreme Court can take years to get to. You need to show me documentation that HSF chose to shut down on its own for no apparent reason and it wasn't the court ruling that forced the shut down. Burden of proof is on you since this is your accusation, not mine. Don't forget, you like to harp about ridership levels but you fail to acknowledge HSF has been operating with one hand tied behinds its back for the last 11 months. The original business plan called for initially one ship with service to Kauai and Maui. Fees for cargo trucks are much higher and different than for passenger cars so looking at just raw ridership numbers don't give the entire picture.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                        Originally posted by Jewlipino View Post
                        Superferry shot itself in the foot. If they had just done the EIS like every other business is required to do with projects of this magnitude this situation simply would not have happened.
                        Well, that's what's being claimed. I can't help but wonder if that is really true or if the anti-change crowd wouldn't have found something else wrong with it.


                        Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                        Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:


                        ...do you think this sentiment would have been limited only to Kaua‘i and Maui? I think not.
                        Um, assuming that the majority of the Hawaii's residents aren't foaming at the mouth anti-military, what difference would it make?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          It's not a top secret F22 program, it's a civilian transport ship that can have military applications.
                          We can go back and forth on whether civilian or military use is the secondary application, but your own post here is about to prove me right:

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          this press release from the navy indicates only Austal received the contract, not three ship builders as you say.
                          Okay, so of the three shipbuilders originally winning bids for a final design concept of the JHSV in January ’08, Austal USA won the contract. Thanks for that update. Apparently, Westpac Express & the Hawai‘i Superferry, the only two JHSV demos built by Austal USA for use in coordination with major U.S. military bases, did have an influence on who the U.S. Navy finally selected. Unfortunately $40 million in Hawai‘i state taxpayer dollars and 236 local jobs were collateral damage in that equation.

                          Your own press release reveals that now the number of JHVS to be built has increased from eight to 10. It even gives a pricetag: $185,433,564. Multiply that by 10, and you have a $1.8 billion-dollar contract, joshuatree. Far more then HSF could have ever dreamed of making in a civilian transport service scenario. I imagine Austal USA intends to compensate Lehman and Co. handily for their dirtywork. I wouldn’t be surprised if they now turn around and try to sell the HSF to a foreign country’s navy under the description “working prototype for the U.S. military’s cutting-edge JHSV program.”

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          The navy also has HSV Swift, HSV Joint venture, and TSV-1X Spearhead for testing purposes.
                          Yes, all three of these vessels were built by Incat Australia, whose U.S.-counterpart is Bollinger Shipyards Inc. — one of the two losing bidders for the JHVS contract. What a coincidence. Perhaps Bollinger Shipyards should have hired Lehman and Co. when they had the chance.

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          why was HSF's commercial operation shut down by Sierra club / Supreme Court?
                          I already debunked this utter falsehood in post #66. Pay attention. Once Austal USA was awarded the military contract, the non-profitable HSF civilian transport operation became irrelevant. And HSF officials acted accordingly.

                          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                          Burden of proof is on you since this is your accusation, not mine.
                          I’m not a lawyer, and this is not a courtroom. I’ve posted more than a half-dozen links that support my claims. Your single link, also makes my case far better than it does yours. So keep believing what you want to believe. The bottom line is, Lehman and Co. will be laughing all the way to the bank, multi-millionaires several times over. Meanwhile, the state is left holding the bag. Good thing they have joshuatree to provide apologist propaganda supporting the “Lingle Administration’s official version of events.” I hear Admiral Fargo has called an HSF press conference for 6:30 a.m. today, so if you hurry, you can make it in time to lick his boots.

                          We’re done here.

                          We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                          — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                          USA TODAY, page 2A
                          11 March 1993

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                            Originally posted by helen View Post
                            Somehow to me this whole Superferry mess reeks of a get rich quick and leave scheme as opposed to some military testing conspiracy.
                            I dunno. I don't think they were waiting for the Supreme Court Ruling to ditch us. I don't think they knew in advance about the outcome.

                            I think there will be a ferry system for Hawaii in the near future. It just have to be owned by someone local or Native Hawaiians, not some outside group.
                            Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                            Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                              Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                              Okay, so of the three shipbuilders originally winning bids for a final design concept of the JHSV in January ’08, Austal USA won the contract. Thanks for that update. Apparently, Westpac Express & the Hawai‘i Superferry, the only two JHSV demos built by Austal USA for use in coordination with major U.S. military bases, did have an influence on who the U.S. Navy finally selected. Unfortunately $40 million in Hawai‘i state taxpayer dollars and 236 local jobs were collateral damage in that equation.

                              Your own press release reveals that now the number of JHVS to be built has increased from eight to 10. It even gives a pricetag: $185,433,564. Multiply that by 10, and you have a $1.8 billion-dollar contract, joshuatree. Far more then HSF could have ever dreamed of making in a civilian transport service scenario. I imagine Austal USA intends to compensate Lehman and Co. handily for their dirtywork. I wouldn’t be surprised if they now turn around and try to sell the HSF to a foreign country’s navy under the description “working prototype for the U.S. military’s cutting-edge JHSV program.”
                              You're so far up conspiracy theory alley that you're simply running in circles to explain your way out of flaws in your explanations.

                              So now you are suggesting Lehman's gonna get a cut from Austal even though you simply don't have a shred of evidence? Weren't you the one early on gloating at me that you back all your statements up? Shesh....give it a rest with all the works of fiction. Without any hard evidence, all your suggestions have no more merit than my viewpoint and it's absurd for you to attempt to quash my viewpoint when all you have is your imagination running wild. And more errors from you yet again, Westpac Express was not built by Austal USA. It was built by Austal of Henderson, Australia. Austal has long been selling to other navies before this program. You still haven't checked out Austal's site, have you?


                              Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                              Yes, all three of these vessels were built by Incat Australia, whose U.S.-counterpart is Bollinger Shipyards Inc. — one of the two losing bidders for the JHVS contract. What a coincidence. Perhaps Bollinger Shipyards should have hired Lehman and Co. when they had the chance.

                              I already debunked this utter falsehood in post #66. Pay attention. Once Austal USA was awarded the military contract, the non-profitable HSF civilian transport operation became irrelevant. And HSF officials acted accordingly.

                              I’m not a lawyer, and this is not a courtroom. I’ve posted more than a half-dozen links that support my claims. Your single link, also makes my case far better than it does yours. So keep believing what you want to believe. The bottom line is, Lehman and Co. will be laughing all the way to the bank, multi-millionaires several times over. Meanwhile, the state is left holding the bag. Good thing they have joshuatree to provide apologist propaganda supporting the “Lingle Administration’s official version of events.” I hear Admiral Fargo has called an HSF press conference for 6:30 a.m. today, so if you hurry, you can make it in time to lick his boots.

                              We’re done here.
                              What coincidence? Ship builders vying for a ship contract? Holy smokes, what a concept. Maybe Austal's paying off Incat to produce some ships that didn't performed to the military's expectations, thereby insuring Austal wins the contract. I'm waiting for you to link this to UFOs and Area 51.

                              You've debunked nothing. The contract was assigned back in 11/08. It is 3/09. If HSF was merely a front, there was no need to keep playing the charade till the Sierra Club / Supreme Court effectively pulled the plug. I notice you really can't answer that question of why it was SC/SC that killed the service. All you do is throw up smoke and mirrors to detract from that main critical point. Yeah, you're done. And no, it's not a courtroom for your arguments would have been tossed out early on. You can have your opinions, I can have mine. But if you want to attempt to step on mine without being able to logically answer critical questions head on and you need to attack me at a personal level, take a good look in the mirror. The term "apologist propagandist" suits you perfectly.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                If HSF was merely a front, there was no need to keep playing the charade till the Sierra Club / Supreme Court effectively pulled the plug. I notice you really can't answer that question of why it was SC/SC that killed the service.
                                From what little I know about this, it seems that the Sierra Club's interest is making sure that the paperwork and other rules and regulations gets done before operations continue.

                                According to the Star Bulletin, the shutdown of the SuperFerry is for the short term, which might mean between now and June, which I think is when the EIS should be finished. I suspect that once the EIS is done, the Sierra Club should not be factor in this, unless they find some other administrative stuff relating to the enivornment that got overlooked.

                                As far as the other two groups Maui Tomorrow and Kahului Harbor Coalition, I have no clue what their agendas are.

                                Comment

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