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Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or Socialized Medicine?

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  • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

    or the fact that many only have enough from their jobs to get by, day to day. Without any extra to sock away for retirement.

    Thats enuf from my point of view. I seem to be the only one who feels this way and I'm tired of trying to make a point.
    "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
    – Sydney J. Harris

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    • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

      You're definitely not alone, anapuni. The majority of those you describe are not on HT otherwise you'd have an outpouring of support! People who are fortunate enough to have the means to plan for a comfortable retirement are often not understanding that there are so many millions of folks who have the desire to plan but not the means. And, there are as many reasons for this as there are people. They're not all victims or poor planners.

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      • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

        Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
        or the fact that many only have enough from their jobs to get by, day to day. Without any extra to sock away for retirement.

        Thats enuf from my point of view. I seem to be the only one who feels this way and I'm tired of trying to make a point.
        No, you are definitely not alone. I also think that many of us here are in the same boat. But, like me, tend not to join in these types of conversations for a variety of reasons.

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        • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

          Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
          or the fact that many only have enough from their jobs to get by, day to day. Without any extra to sock away for retirement.
          Does that mean that on a Social Security retirement benefit that the referenced should be able to live better than they did when working? There are programs for the indigent elderly. Some of these programs include food stamps, Medicaid, subsidized housing and utilities. The bus system for the elderly in Hawai'i is one of the best systems I have ever seen. If I were to retire in Hawai'i, I doubt I would own a car, I would use the bus system by choice.

          What is a minimum lifestyle in retirement? Does that mean that everyone should be paid a retirement benefit that will allow them to retire in Hawai'i? Who should pay for that "paradise" lifestyle that those who are still working can't even afford? The cost of living varies so much across the USA and world that it is hard to make a universal social security benefit fit every circumstance.

          I have a female friend, 77, who lives in Fresno on Social Security alone. She has never been married and she has no children. She gets the minimum monthly Social Security benefit, that means about $600 or $700 per month. She rents a one bedroom apartment in an apartment complex of mixed cultures. Her furniture is hand me downs or gifts from friends and relatives. She has no car so she walks and uses the bus, consequently, she is in better shape than I. She purchases her clothing at Macy's or Ross when they have a big sale. She only owns about 4 different outfits, but that's all she really needs. She doesn't eat extravagantly but she doesn't eat dog food either. She never goes out for a meal unless someone is having a "seniors day." She utilizes all the welfare programs that are available to her including Medicaid and subsidized utilities. She is doing just fine and she is happy surrounded by friends and family who do "nice things" for her.

          I live in a beautiful spot in Mexico because I can live here for about 15% to 20% less than a similar lifestyle in Central California (where I grew up, lived and worked and where my family continues to live). I would love to retire in Hawai'i spending the same amount I do now. I can't afford to do that, perhaps someday, but for now it is just a dream. I don't feel that Social Security owes me that dream. If I want to achieve that dream, it is up to me to figure out how to afford it.

          And what about all the elderly in every country around the world? Don't they deserve the same retirement lifestyle to which those in the US aspire? I know some elderly Mexicans who would just like to just visit Hawai'i. They can't even afford to visit relatives that live 500 miles away in Mexico.

          It is all about choices and options. I get a fixed amount of retirement income. I get to decide where and how to spend it. I could live like nobility on that retirement income in Tonga. It is an option that I have seriously considered. I could make my retirement income go about twice as far in Mississippi compared to SoCal (the equivalent of doubling my Social Security check), but Mississippi is not an option I have seriously considered (neither is Fresno where I was reared - been there, done that). But I may have to return to Fresno if the well continues to run dry and I WILL make a happy life there if necessary. YES I CAN.

          This is an interesting discussion. I hope that those who are still working are paying attention. I try to be generous and share with those who are less fortunate, it is the Tongan way, but I just don't have enough to fix everyone, neither do USA taxpayers.
          Last edited by matapule; September 12, 2009, 04:35 AM.
          Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

          People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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          • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

            Originally posted by matapule View Post
            And what about all the elderly in every country around the world? Don't they deserve the same retirement lifestyle to which those in the US aspire?
            We as Americans have no control over government decisions about the elderly in the rest of the world. And for the last 30 years of my working life, I have had no control over the government removing the Social Security taxes from my paychecks. Yes, I feel I deserve to receive Social Security when my time comes, and I am doing my best to help subsidize that income.

            The elderly in other countries deserve to have their needs supplied, too, but I bet they did not pay elder taxes to provide for it. I know quite a few American elderly who donate funds to provide for needy elders in other countries.

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            • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              And what about all the elderly in every country around the world? Don't they deserve the same retirement lifestyle to which those in the US aspire? I know some elderly Mexicans who would just like to just visit Hawai'i. They can't even afford to visit relatives that live 500 miles away in Mexico.
              I don't get the impression Anapuni was expecting SS to provide retirees with an income that enables them to become globetrotters.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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              • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                I don't get the impression Anapuni was expecting SS to provide retirees with an income that enables them to become globetrotters.
                So, back to my original question: What is the minimum income from social security in the US to provide for a minimum lifestyle in retirement? I gave an example of someone I know (a single person) who is doing fine on $600 or $700 per month from SS, no other support than occasional gifts from friends and family.

                Should Social Security payments be based and indexed on the Cost Of Living in the State in which one retires?

                Should Social Security contributions be indexed to the Cost of Living in the State in which one is employed?

                Should retirees expect that Social Security alone provide for any lifestyle they choose in retirement?

                Again, what is the minimum standard for retirement lifestyle?

                I am grateful for my Social Security benefit. It provides for an enhanced lifestyle for me. I am grateful the US provides this benefit for most retirees. I just wonder if retirees expect too much from Social Security sometimes.
                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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                • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                  Originally posted by cyleet99 View Post
                  The elderly in other countries deserve to have their needs supplied, too, but I bet they did not pay elder taxes to provide for it.
                  I don't know about every country, but Mexico does have a social security system for the elderly who do contribute through payroll taxes. But the Mexican system is not nearly as extravagant as the US system.

                  To get back on topic, Mexico does have a national health care program, available to anyone, including me who is not a citizen and technically an "illegal alien" residing here (I am working on getting my legal residency). Mexico also has private insurance that competes profitably with the national program.

                  I wonder why the H1N1 flu has been more severe in the US than Mexico and why more people in the US have died from it (percentage-wise and actual numbers-wise) than Mexico.
                  Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                  People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                  Comment


                  • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                    Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
                    Because maybe we've earned it? Same as we've earned our measley social security which, if we are taking it, is not enough to afford medical care/meds and still have enough for rent & groceries. Let alone any quality of life. I've worked for 50 years and damn it - I've earned the right to some benefits! and Medicare is not free - we still have to pay for it. and it only covers a small % of the cost of our prescriptions.

                    Sorry, this is a very touchy subject for me.
                    Earned it by virtue of your long life? Someone who worked as hard or harder than you, but failed to live long enough DIDN'T earn it? Someone who didn't work half as hard as you, but did live long enough earned it? Give me a break... it's just a pyramid scheme where the suckers are the last to pay in, in addition to those who don't live long enough to benefit - they are the ones 'paying for it'. Why must short-lived persons pay for increasing the longevity of long-lived persons? In what hell [or dystopia] does that make sense?
                    Last edited by salmoned; September 14, 2009, 10:02 AM.
                    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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                    • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                      I don't think you understand Social Security: we only get back what we've paid into the system over the years we've worked. We are not getting "something for nothing". And if someone passes away, there are death benefits for the family. It's not free for anyone.

                      Salmoned - I don't know whether you are male or female, Young or old. I do know that you come across as a very mean-spirited, rude person. and I know that I will no longe engage with you.
                      "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                      – Sydney J. Harris

                      Comment


                      • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                        Ha, Ha, I think you don't understand it. No one gets back what they pay into Social Security or Medicare. Those funds only pay for current expenditures (surpluses/shortfalls are recorded and will be 'adjusted' [paid for] in the future).

                        My father is in his 80s, he's received more in Social Security and Medicare benefits than his entire lifetime earned income, even if you compound those earnings by 10% per annum. He is a SS 'lottery winner'. He gamed the system.

                        My mother died at age 65. She collected 5 months of Social Security (she had paid in more than that in her last year of employment). There were no 'death benefits'. In fact, we had to return her SS payment for the month she died, even though her household expenses for that month had to be paid.

                        Both worked hard, but only one got what each had individually 'earned'. Social Security is not a forced system of saving for your retirement, it's a obligatory lottery for the benefit of the long-lived, guaranteed to pay more than is 'earned' to the winners, at the expense of the losers.

                        Sorry if I sound mean-spirited or rude to you, I'm not very comfortable when others proclaim irrational opinions or use unsound reasoning.
                        Last edited by salmoned; September 14, 2009, 11:20 AM.
                        May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                          By the way, Social Security WAS free when it began - seniors had not paid into the system, yet received benefits. It's also been free to qualifying immigrants.
                          Last edited by salmoned; September 14, 2009, 11:29 AM.
                          May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                            and I'll just bet you like that book "Soylent Green" don't you?
                            "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                            – Sydney J. Harris

                            Comment


                            • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                              Anapuni, I am on your side but some of your statements are misleading.

                              Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
                              we only get back what we've paid into the system over the years we've worked. We are not getting "something for nothing".
                              Well, yes and no. Right now the average SS recipient takes out everything they paid into the system (plus interest on that money) at about age 82. If you or I live longer than that, we will get "something for nothing" from the system.

                              And if someone passes away, there are death benefits for the family.
                              I'm not aware of those SS benefits, maybe if you were in the military, but I don't know.

                              It's not free for anyone.
                              I know of people today who are collecting from SS (the minimum amount) and never paid a dime into the system. It is free money to them.

                              I hope Salmoned is paying attention and that they are taking steps beside social security to provide for their comfortable retirement.
                              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                              Comment


                              • Re: Obamanomics: Healthcare Reform or European-Modeled Socialized Medicine?

                                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                                It's also been free to qualifying immigrants.
                                Salmoned we are all immigrants or descendents of same. I presume you are talking about "illegal immigrants" and your stement is not true. In most cases you only receive SS benefits if you paid into the system with a SS card - whether legal or illegal. What's wrong with paying benefits to an immigrant if they are "qualified?" But in most cases, it is not free.
                                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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