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Thread: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    So...do you want honest responses, or just ones that tell you what you'd like to hear?


    Oh...and regarding "Pidgin To Da Max"? When you do visit Hawai`i, don't, under ANY circumstances, try to speak pidgin based on what you've learned from that book. It'll help you to understand some of what the locals are saying - but trying to speak it when you didn't grow up with it will make you enemies faster than almost anything else!)
    I do want and appreciate all the opinions and advice, positive and negative. I just am disappointed, as I bet anyone would be, that most of what I am getting is negative.
    And regarding "Pidgin to da Max". I would never attempt to speak pidgin, I bought the book because it seemed interesting and it does come in handy to help me understand what folks are saying.



    Quote Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
    You're getting really good, honest advice here so I won't offer more of the same. I do have a curiosity question, however. I've noticed your use of the word "rual" throughout your posts and am curious if that word is used in place of "rural" in the midwest. I'd never seen the use of "rual" before. Again, just curious...
    I am a horrible speller. I realize that when the only way we get to communicate is through typing back and forth bad spelling makes me seem unintelligent or uneducated. It helps if you don't judge me based on my spelling errors. Every one has their flaws.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    I see on the bottom of the home page, that 'Molokainews' is our newest member. Maybe they will print our posts in their newspaper!

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharilyn View Post
    I see on the bottom of the home page, that 'Molokainews' is our newest member. Maybe they will print our posts in their newspaper!
    I have a friend who lives on Molokai who was recently followed by someone with that exact Twitter account name. (Molokainews) I looked the account on Twitter and I'm not quite sure what its purpose of is. Seems the owner of this Molokainews account does a lot @ replies and RTs.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    As far as reversing the question... The town I lived in in rual missouri could not possibly be compared to rual Hawaii. There were around 150 people there. There are no beaches there. The climate is harsh most times of the year. There is very little natural beauty aside from a few muddy creeks and rivers. Most people I knew back then don't even live there anymore. If a Hawaiian family moved there, we probably would have been astounded on why they would have wanted to come here of all places from Hawaii of all places. But, nonetheless, I don't think most folks would've been unkind to them.
    Like all analogies, mine has its flaws. My point was that you could take the view of a Molokai resident hearing your announcement that you're making Molokai your new home.

    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    What I hear you telling me is that the locals will hate us for coming, and we will not be socially excepted, and that I probably won't make it because of this. If its so bad, why do you all love it so much? Why is it so unbelievable that I would love it too, in my own way?
    Are all 7000 people on Molokai people who were born and raised there? Is it impossible to transplant there and be happy? I know I wasn't lucky enough to be born and raised in Hawaii, but does that mean I can't be happy if I move there?
    Well, now I think you're stuffing words in my mouth. "Hate"? No. "Unkind"? Nope. "Cynical & skeptical'? You bet. "Slow to be socially accepted"? Absolutely.

    Keep in mind that you'd be the latest in a long line of outsiders who've decided to make Molokai their home... and 99.9% of those outsiders who preceeded you have already left because they couldn't find what they were seeking.

    It's not "bad" here, just different. When my spouse's parents moved here to watch their grandkid grow up, we spent a lot of time explaining local culture & practices. They'd spent a month or two here every year for over a decade. They should've known what they were getting into.

    But when they tried to impose their expectations of their daily lives on this place, they never acculturated. They couldn't handle local cuisine. "Pidgin" was equated with "uneducated". Any misunderstandings between them and locals were caused by Hawaii's "poor public-school system". They couldn't make day trips. (?!?) They were always telling people what it was like on the Mainland, never asking how it was on Oahu. After a 30-year career in TV news, they thought local commercials were hilariously crude.* Politics was just so provincial & unsophisticated compared to four decades near Washington, DC. The newspapers were so inadequate compared to the Washington Post. They missed being able to visit Civil War sites and going on Elderhostels. They missed Southern cuisine (whatever that meant to them). Shipping expenses were so ridiculously high. Roads were so poor. The traffic was so bad. (?!??!!) Everything was better on the Mainland.

    They gave it six years (about five years longer than they should have), they left over two years ago, and we're still recovering from the drama.

    Cost them a lot of money, too. They sold their house and put the money in CDs, but real estate doubled while they were gone. Then they bought back in at the top of the market and, in their 70s, found themselves applying for a mortgage.

    Not, of course, that I'm implying any of their experiences apply to you. Only you can discern that. But they're just one example of the progression from fantasy through disillusionment to reality.

    My spouse and I have "only" lived here for 20 years and our kid has been raised here. After living all over the world, we appreciate Hawaii for having what the rest of the world (including the Mainland) lacks. We accept the flaws. We enjoy the nature and the culture the most, and we have as many friends as we can handle. But there's always a line drawn here between "local" and "not local", knowing that we lack the roots and family. We might move away any day to take care of our parents or to someday see our own grandkids, leaving our "local" friends to find a new set of friends.

    You could be happy here. But in my opinion you have no basis in experience or reality to make that assessment. And as you've said, you have a lot of visiting to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    I know that there is a stereotype about newcomers. There have been a lot of suggesting that I will come and not know what I have gotten myself into and be miserable.
    This is why I'm talking to you all. So I can get some questions answered and know all that I can so I would know what I am getting myself into. Please don't post suggesting that I am completely starry eyed and ignorant. I may have a few stars in my eyes, but I'm not irrational.
    And I do want to come to visit. It will just take some time.
    I've watched hundreds of families move here over the last couple decades, and we've watched dozens more go through the process on this board. I'm one of the more outspoken posters who will air my disagreement with your opinions while others choose to say nothing. Frankly I think it is "starry eyed and ignorant" to suggest in your very first post that Molokai might be the place for you. If you don't like the answers, then why ask the questions? Before getting prickly & defensive about the responses, let alone shooting the messengers, you should spend a few months experiencing what people are telling you. Then maybe, unlike now, you'll appreciate the different perspective.

    * (Tutusue, I'm talking about Lex Brodie's animated caveman and Garrick Paikai's "No can. Can?!?" character. My father-in-law's career was with CBS as a camera operator/technician.)
    Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    I do want and appreciate all the opinions and advice, positive and negative. I just am disappointed, as I bet anyone would be, that most of what I am getting is negative.[...]
    You are getting HONEST input and that, after all, is what you want...isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
    You're getting really good, honest advice here so I won't offer more of the same. I do have a curiosity question, however. I've noticed your use of the word "rual" throughout your posts and am curious if that word is used in place of "rural" in the midwest. I'd never seen the use of "rual" before. Again, just curious...
    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    I am a horrible speller. I realize that when the only way we get to communicate is through typing back and forth bad spelling makes me seem unintelligent or uneducated. It helps if you don't judge me based on my spelling errors. Every one has their flaws.
    Susie...please reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I judge you. I was sincerely curious if the word "rual" might be a regional spelling as your spelling is otherwise fine throughout your posts. Nowhere was "unintelligent" or "uneducated" assumed or even implied. Hawaii is full of local words that outsiders don't understand and spellings that differ from the norm...eg: rubbah slippahs=rubber slippers, li'dat= like that. I could go on and on.

    You've asked questions and you're not getting the answers you want so now you're getting defensive. That attitude won't fly when you're physically located in Hawaii. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that you might easily have a tough time adjusting to Hawaii, in general, not just Molokai. I know you don't want to hear that but your defensiveness and unwillingness to see answers and advice from locals as honest vs negative are great indicators, imnsho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    [...]
    * (Tutusue, I'm talking about Lex Brodie's animated caveman and Garrick Paikai's "No can. Can?!?" character. My father-in-law's career was with CBS as a camera operator/technician.)
    Like any other region in the country, we have our share of inexpensively produced commercials that, well, show it!

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    besides molokai locals' tendency to be insular, i can't see any good come out of encouraging someone to relocate their family to move halfway around the world to someplace they've only read about or talked with others about yet never once actually visited and don't already have personal ties to. it's one thing to do if you're single and are wealthy enough to change your mind if you've found your new home is nothing like you'd expected. i can see that as being adventurous. it's a much bigger risk to do it when you have kids and spouse and you're not obligated (say by your job or family need), especially in these economic times. i wouldn't venture to do it.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  7. #32

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    I just am disappointed, as I bet anyone would be, that most of what I am getting is negative.
    You're absolutely right; again, I'm not saying anything to scare you off your plan, but rather to help you get a realistic perspective toward what you want to do. Personally, I think you should hang on to that dream and pursue it - but with a very complete picture of what you are getting into. If you are ready to deal with the challenges, you have a better chance at success, but if you don't accept what's ahead of you, you are guaranteed to fail. Personally, I'd love to see you make your dream come true. From Iowa - to Moloka`i; I wanna read that success story someday!
    Quote Originally Posted by susie View Post
    And regarding "Pidgin to da Max". I would never attempt to speak pidgin, I bought the book because it seemed interesting and it does come in handy to help me understand what folks are saying.
    Oh, good. I just wanted to be sure to pre-empt that idea, in case you had it; I'm glad you didn't. And it's a hilarious read, too!

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    i apologize for the small digression of this post.

    LEO: eric and i are ourselves about to go someplace we've never been--albeit just for a few days' visit--seattle. sent you a pm earlier this week. would you be able to answer it this weekend? mahalos!
    Last edited by cynsaligia; July 10th, 2009 at 01:49 PM.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  9. #34

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by cynsaligia View Post
    i apologize for the small digression. leo, eric and i are ourselves about to go someplace we've never been--albeit just for a few days' visit--seattle. sent you a pm earlier this week. would you be able to answer it this weekend? mahalos!
    Sorry, yes - will try to do so this weekend. Between a surprise leak in our hot water heater on July 4, plus the Alpha Female being ill all week, I've been unable to help you out; will do so ASAP!

    Back to your scheduled discussion, folks. Nothing to see here - move along - move along...

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Does anyone watch "Top Chef"? The reason I ask is one of the cheftestants (Mia Gaines-Alt)
    ended up moving in 2007 to Moloka'i from Modesto, CA having never been
    there. She got the job as the chef at the Hotel Molokai I never heard if she
    is still there or not. She's on Facebook apparently maybe you could try to
    become her "friend" on that site and she could tell you what it was like
    for her. But again, she went with a job lined up.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Of all the islands you could pick to move to, I think Molokai would be the toughest one to get established and make friends on. Have you considered Hilo side of the Big Island, or North Shore area on Oahu?
    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

  12. #37

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Susie-
    I'm a bit further along in the process you're considering so maybe I can offer a different perspective.

    I visited Hawaii (Maui) for the first time 9 months ago for a friend's wedding and feel in love with the idea of living there. I'm also originally from the Midwest (raised in Missouri, grew up in the outdoors of the ozarks and lived in small farm town). So I was drawn to the outdoors of Hawaii.

    After returning to the mainland, I networked and found a job opportunity within my specialty in Honolulu. On the return trip for the job interview, I really took the time explore the islands with the eyes of a non-tourist. I looked at the price of everything, meals when eating out, McDonalds (Which you should never eat anyway), grocery store items, the cost of produce, milk, frozen pizza (I love a good frozen pizza, but I think I'd rather learn to bake bread than pay that price). Also, the time difference (I wont be able to call my family on a whim because of the time difference). I also had to realize that Oahu is very different than Maui, the island I first feel in love with. All the islands are very different as has been said.

    The Manager recruiting me also provided a lot of advice. Although she really wanted me to take the job, she wanted me to be sure that I was willing to make the sacrifices of living on the islands. Most people would be surprised how hard it is to decide to go to Hawaii until you have the actual opportunity to do so. And it's a hard decision, one I continue to struggle with as I prepare to leave for Oahu in two weeks.

    So, long story short, heed the advice here. GO VISIT! Either one of two things will happen. Either you'll realize your dream can be a reality and become more passionate about doing it, or you may learn that your dream is just that. I say go for it and find out. Best of luck.
    -Eric

  13. #38

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    The way I see it, the postings on this thread have been relatively gentle compared to what is likely to happen when a newcomer happens to pull into a parking stall that someone else has already eyeballed as their own, or if a newcomer happens to smile too friendly at the wrong person's wife at the store, or if the security guard at the airport says to "keep moving" and the newcomer decides to pull over anyway .....

    HTers are being pretty nice, but real life in Hawaii is not all "Aloha", and if you can't hack HT you aren't gona be able to hack life here. IMHO.

    So, give up on your plan? No, but maybe listen more without taking offense, and you'll perhaps have a much easier time with your adventure. I think most everyone here really does want the best for you.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Susie, I'm born and raised in Hawaii and have visited Molokai plenty of times and even have friends on both sides of the island. BUT I would never live there because even for this 49-year Kamaaina, I just don't fit in. If this local guy has reservations about living there, so will you once you've understood what Molokai is all about.

    Molokai is one of the last outposts for Hawaiiana. The life there is rural plantation for those multi-generational families that have managed to maintain that style of life and culture despite being dragged into the 21st century. Their lives are already being encrouched upon by western values as more people discover this island and move in on the East side. Those homesteaders on the West are feeling the pinch already and are trying to hang on to their way of life as the demographics change.

    I don't want to live there for two reasons: 1) I'm an outsider and 2) I respect their way of life. I go visit and admire it but I know when it's time to leave.

    The advice I'm giving you is sound and an attempt to sway you from this idea that living on Molokai will be an accepting one from the locals there. They will tolerate you but will be passive-aggressive at the same time. That's not healthy for you or your family.

    Come to the Big Island if you want rural. We got plenty of that here.
    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by cynsaligia View Post
    it's one thing to do if you're single and are wealthy enough to change your mind if you've found your new home is nothing like you'd expected. i can see that as being adventurous.
    You mean like this other guy who never quite acculturated to Molokai while annoying the heck out of the locals?

    http://archives.starbulletin.com/200...ess/engle.html
    http://oceanhomemag.com/mcafee-puts-...e-up-for-sale/
    http://www.molokai-hawaii-realestate...p?listingID=47
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    Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
    We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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  16. #41
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    You mean like this other guy who never quite acculturated to Molokai while annoying the heck out of the locals?

    http://archives.starbulletin.com/200...ess/engle.html
    http://oceanhomemag.com/mcafee-puts-...e-up-for-sale/
    http://www.molokai-hawaii-realestate...p?listingID=47
    i'm sorry. i should have said "rich" instead of "wealthy." (chris rock's take on rich v. wealthy here.) i was imagining someone who makes half a mil a year or so. i most certainly wasn't thinking of a software mogul.

    It wasn’t until after I left the company that I realized I had more money than anyone can spend.

    ...

    McAfee’s success also afforded him the luxury of owning about a dozen estates (he isn’t sure of the exact number) spread out across North America, Fiji, and Belize, and now he’s cashing it all in. In fact, his 280-acre Colorado mountain estate that was estimated at over $20 million was auctioned off for a mere $5.78 million. “I’m embarrassed that I built that house in Colorado,” says McAfee. “It sold to a gentleman who shouldn’t have bought it. The maintenance on that place is over $1 million a year.”
    but i guess even having ungodly amounts of money doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to buy a clue.

    The founder of California-based software company McAfee Inc. says he is "befuddled" by the reaction of what he believes to be a vocal minority on Molokai to his plan to sell more than 1,000 acres on the Friendly Isle.
    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

  17. #42
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Hi, Susie-

    I never lived on Molokai. Never even went to visit. But I can tell you what it was like moving to Oahu last year when my husband got transferred out of the blue.

    I'd been to Oahu once before for two weeks and had liked it, but when I found out we were moving, I was upset. For all the reasons people listed, plus others. But I didn't have a choice, so I found myself on a plane. When I first got there, it was the end of October and I hated it. I couldn't find my way around, I couldn't pronounce street names to ask anybody where to go. There weren't MY favorite stores. The traffic SUCKED, I kept getting lost, I didn't know anybody. We lived in an area that was mostly locals and no one was too friendly, like when I went to the store. Yeah, the beach was pretty and I was living all my friends' dreams, but I was miserable. It was humid and my hair looked crappy and there was no AC. I missed my dogs.

    But....after a few weeks I got used to the humidity. I met Turtle Girl and made an awesome friend. I started learning my way around. I made friends with some people in my neighborhood (we lived on an ex-military base, so they were used to people coming and going). I bought a rice-cooker and a boogie board. TG and I started exploring all over and having a blast. I finally settled in and was happy- one of the happiest times in my life. Then my husband's project ended nine months early and we had to move back to Texas and I was completely miserable because I realized that I was in love with Hawaii and wanted to stay, but it just wasn't possible. So now I'm back in nasty, hot Texas with no awesome Turtle Girl, no beach, and missing Hawaii every single day like crazy. But there's no way my husband and I could afford to live there on our own (his company paid for our expenses out there). Sometimes, before I go to bed at night, I ask God to let me wake up in Oahu and I promise I won't ask any questions, but it never happens. But I keep hoping. And saving quarters.

    Anyway, the point of this is that I thought I would totally hate Hawaii and I did, but then I finally settled in and loved it. I agree you should visit first. We got stuck in a part of the island that we didn't want to live in, but that's what happens when you move blindly. Take an extended vacay, but say you're moving so people get used to you. Check out Big Island, Maui, Molokai, Kauai. If you move to the Big Island or Kauai and get acclamated, maybe then you could move to Molokai and it wouldn't be as much of a culture shock. Doing things in stages is sometimes easier. Just be prepared for expensive! I knew that, had it drilled into my head, and was still shocked, especially coming from a cheap state.

    And know that Hawaii is more like a foreign country than part of the United States. At least it was to me.

    Good luck with whatever you decide!
    Last edited by surlygirly; July 12th, 2009 at 12:45 AM.

    Can't think of anything creative this time


  18. #43

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Hi Susie,

    Reading through this thread, I have a thought for you: consider Kaʻū, which is the south end of the Big Island. You can get all that great rural, provincial lifestyle that will fill your soul, and you will find two key elements not readily available on Molokaʻi: a community of other expatriats with whom to find camaraderie and support and the ability to drive to either Hilo or Kona for medical services and shopping, etc (each just 90 min away). There you can find good sized pieces of property and a quiet lifestyle.

    pax

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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Susie,
    Everyone here is giving you great advice, no one is trying to be negative or tell you not to follow your heart. The fact that you are considering Molokai makes it seem like you are not getting the big picture and that is why people are trying to educate you, not dissuade you from coming.

    The nearest analogy would be comparing Molokai to a reservation on the mainland. Would you choose to move into Iroquois tribal land? Or right at the edge of their reservation? Would you buy a house in a newly "developed" area, widely know to be Native American sacred land, knowing that the only reason it was sold was because the people were faced with the choice to either move from their ancestral home or sell of pieces off to pay for the rising property taxes caused by nearby development? Molokai is almost like that.
    I want to make it clear that this is a gross oversimplification, but I think it is a good analogy.

    As far as Hawaiians hating you... not likely, not if you understand Aloha. But people there have learned to be a little stand-offish to wait and see if you really "get" it and will you make it past the "honeymoon" phase and really love Hawaii for what it really is and chose to stay. Read the posts, everyone who stays over there has seen so many people move there with the wrong idea and leave disappointed.
    With this forum you have instant 'ohana (family) who are giving great honest advice. Without a forum like this the only way to get this kind of info would be to already have family or friends over there.

    Well thats my two cents, I hope it helps someone.
    You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

  20. #45
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    Post Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
    Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
    Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.

    Helen Keller


    jus' sayin'...
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    susie hasn't made a comment in this thread in over a week now. I think there's a pretty good chance she's been dissuaded from entertaining the thought of relocating from Iowa to Molokai by now. Well done, HT community, for setting her straight about this nonsense of moving to Molokai and crushing her what would have been an impossible dream to fulfill!

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    I can't decide if that was a very passive-agressive post or not.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by Menehune Man View Post
    Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
    Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
    Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.

    Helen Keller
    WOW

    That just sums it up beautifully.
    You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfingfarmboy View Post
    susie hasn't made a comment in this thread in over a week now. I think there's a pretty good chance she's been dissuaded from entertaining the thought of relocating from Iowa to Molokai by now. Well done, HT community, for setting her straight about this nonsense of moving to Molokai and crushing her what would have been an impossible dream to fulfill!
    I don't think she's comin' back either.

    If a bunch of anonymous Internet posters could "crush" her dream then it wasn't strong enough to survive the journey.
    Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
    Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
    We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
    Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Former resident of Ewa Beach
    Posts
    937

    Default Re: Thinking about making the move to Molokai

    Or maybe she took our advice and is on her way to visit and check out the place. You never know...

    Can't think of anything creative this time


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