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  • #46
    Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    'The Empty Cradle" is a fictional notion based on the misguided mission of the New American Foundation. That mission is for each generation of Americans to live better than the last, by supposedly growing the population and the economy forever. That can't work because we can't grow the population forever. The only way for each generation to live better than the last is for the population to reach a steady state wherein the population does not continually accumulate degradation of the environment. Then we can live better by improving the resources of the last generation rather than growing them. Yes, it calls for a major change in economic and political strategy. It does not call for a continuing growth of the population. The idea that we may now be declining in numbers is absurd (though the author suggests it in the first chapter of his book, and I certainly wish it were so).

    Craig, 'the last one won't care anyway since it won't matter at that point'? Why, because those hundreds or thousands of your descendants (assuming your children multiply and that pattern continues for a few iterations) will be enjoying the rapture? Or because after you die, you simply don't care about the suffering of future generations? Yes, it must be the latter.

    Kaonohi, why look for a savior? We can each do our part, then we won't be relying on the Messiah to arrive. Also, you may not believe that introducing more food to a population results in an increase in that population when other factors are not limiting, but it is a widely accepted relationship, regardless of species.
    Last edited by salmoned; January 23, 2010, 05:38 PM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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    • #47
      Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

        Originally posted by salmoned View Post
        No worries, it's not on PBS
        Do you give them money, at least, since you use their services?
        Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
        Lesser animals (except dolphins & whales) turn their back on their suffering members.
        Originally posted by matapule View Post
        A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying.
        What makes 'em "lesser"? That implies we have more of a right to existence than do they.

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        • #49
          Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

          As for my part of the preceding post, of course. They help spread awareness by informing the public, despite the anthropomorphic bias of such programs as 'The Human Spark". PBS is a double plus in my book, though I wish their over-the-air hours would be boosted to equal their cable hours (I don't support the cable company).
          Last edited by salmoned; January 24, 2010, 06:17 AM.
          May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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          • #50
            Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
            What makes 'em "lesser"? That implies we have more of a right to existence than do they.
            The term "lesser" animals tend to define their overall stage of developemnt. Has nothing to do with their right to exist. I am an advocate of Sea Turtles. Some days I would prefer to hang out with my turtles than some of the humanoids I know.
            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              Actually that is not the case. Read the book The Empty Cradle for an eye opening account of how the world is currently being threatened by underpopulation.



              K, I don't think that conclusion is based on science. A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying. Elephants come to mind right off the bat.
              Hmmm. On item one, I don't think we are threatened by underpopulation, but by overpopulation by the poor and underprivileged and sensible procreation by the educated. Just my opinion - I'm not playing expert here.

              Thanks for catching my generalization, though. I'm aware of caring for the ill and injured by elephants, but it was a generalization, after all. Most animals, even some very intelligent ones, abandon their sick and dying; those that render aid are the exception.
              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
              ~ ~
              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                Kaonohi, why look for a savior? We can each do our part, then we won't be relying on the Messiah to arrive. Also, you may not believe that introducing more food to a population results in an increase in that population when other factors are not limiting, but it is a widely accepted relationship, regardless of species.
                Evidently there is a misunderstanding: I'm not waiting or looking for any savior. What I intended was let's not leave anyone behind, because we don't know their future potential. You can't 'do your part' if you're dead.

                And of course I know that more food = more population, and less food equals death by starvation in the natural world. We are intelligent animals, however. We can store food for times of lack and not store calories for future use in our body fat.

                I hope you just misunderstood me, otherwise I'd think you were constructing a strawman.
                Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                ~ ~
                Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                  Enough of the ridiculous "Satanic contract" crap. Here is what historical/political experts say are the prime reasons for Haiti's status as one of the world's poorest nations ---


                  1) 1838-1915 France's demand for reparations of 150 million francs (about $21,000,000,000 in today's dollars) to compensate slave owners and their heirs, after Haitian independence, saddling the new country with massive debt.

                  2) 1915-1934 American occupation, which developed a strong military, leading to the rise of...

                  3) 1956-1971 Dictator Papa Doc Duvalier's successful coup and cruel dictatorship, supported by the U.S. (as a balance against Communist Cuba).

                  4) 1971-1986 Baby Doc Duvalier's corrupt dictatorship, following his father's death; thanks to support from the Reagan administration, he was able to flee to France (where he may reside today, though there are reports that he is in New York).

                  5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                    Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post

                    5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.
                    I can personally verify both these points, but would modify to 1492-present

                    I good friend of mine who was Peace Corps in Mali (where French was the official language) eventually joined the Foreign Service. His first assignment was Haiti (because he was fluent in French) where he was the Chief Emmigration Officer, among other things. He had some hilarious stories about some of the ploys that the Haitians would use to try to get a visa to the US, where they would eventually disappear. One male doctor dressed up as a Nun. He didn't get his visa when Greg asked him to translate the Latin "Corpus Christi" (Body of Christ) from the Catholic mass and the "nun" couldn't do it. Greg also went on to marry a local Haitian woman, Defti, who was Roman Catholic like his lily white self. Greg and Defti are stationed in Kenya right now.

                    I have visited both Haiti and the Dominican Republic where our oldest was a high school foreign exchange student. Haiti is stripped bare of it's forests. The Haitians have used the forest as a source of fuel to cook and keep warm (anything under 70F is cold to them). The DR is lush with tropical forests where cutting wood without a permit is a capital offense. The border between the two countries is a clear cut line of forest, no forest. The Dominican military posts sentries along the border to prevent the Haitians from sneaking across the border at night and cutting wood.

                    Haiti has the potential to be a tropical paradise like most of its neighbors. Unfortunately, self interest management by oppressor nations and opportunist nationalists sealed its doom long ago. I don't know what the answers are to its long term development.
                    Last edited by matapule; January 24, 2010, 02:42 PM.
                    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                      Kaonohi, you wrote, "My strategy is different than yours. It may be that someone I save through disaster relief - because they know the pain of overpopulation - may be the ONE who helps us balance our population on Earth." That certainly sounds like you are looking to a savior, 'the ONE', to help us.

                      Leo, your numerical list seems to imply the people of Haiti weren't active participants in creating that list, that they haven't been the primary contributors toward their current situation. If you believe that, then our best approach would be to leave them alone to solve their own problems since our 'helping' has caused such a mess for their country.

                      Matapule, if Haiti's fate is sealed to doom, we and they have no recourse - let it be. There is no answer if its fate is sealed. [Which is nonsense, of course.] Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else). That overpopulation has been caused by the influx of food, mainly or partly provided by 'humanitarian' aid. Lowering food influx WILL lower population, and not just by starvation (though there may be some short term suffering of that sort, the long term benefits outweigh a hundred fold). To avoid that short term suffering, let [us] other countries open [our arms] to Haitian emigrants, rather than send aid to a doomed country.

                      There are dozens of good solutions to the 'Haitian problem'. Doing what we've been doing is NOT one of them.

                      No pain, no gain. - Tough love
                      Last edited by salmoned; January 25, 2010, 09:13 AM.
                      May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                        Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                        There is no answer if its fate is sealed.
                        Haiti's CURRENT fate was sealed long ago and exascerbated with benign neglect by those countries who were in a position to help most. Haiti has the potential for a bright future given the right opportunities and assistance, but death by starvation is not one of them. Education and organized family planning will work wonders for a start.
                        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                          Leo, your numerical list seems to imply the people of Haiti weren't active participants in creating that list, that they haven't been the primary contributors toward their current situation. If you believe that, then our best approach would be to leave them alone to solve their own problems since our 'helping' has caused such a mess for their country.
                          You may, of course, infer anything you like from my posting; it does not make it my intent.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                            Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                            Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else).
                            No pain, no gain. - Tough love
                            Several of Haiti's island neighbors have higher population densities. Why is overpopulation the cause of all of Haiti's problems while Haiti's more densely populated neighbors thrive?
                            Are you a fan of Thomas Malthus, by chance?
                            What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. – Christopher Hitchens

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                            • #59
                              Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                              Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                              You may, of course, infer anything you like from my posting; it does not make it my intent.
                              Nor does the statement above clarify your intent.

                              Stinky, I believe you can answer that question yourself with a little due diligence. You may be referring to Puerto Rico(US), Aruba(Neth), Barbados(UK) or Martinique(Fr)? Just a cursory glance at the list answers the question. A viable comparison can better be made with Cuba - about the same population with nearly 4 times the land area. Even better, compare Haiti to its most near neighbor, Dominican Republic with about 1/2 the density. Of course, it's not density alone that is the deciding factor (else many other places would be even more destitute) and I never stated or implied that it was. As for Malthus, he pointed out a trivial mathematical fact, nothing more, nothing less.

                              Matapule, fate refers to the future (destiny), not the present. The present is a fait accompli and to suggest it was destined to happen [after the fact] is meaninglessly arcane, if not inane. ('It was fate that I said it was fate that I said it was fate!', or, 'I am doomed to say I am doomed to say I am doomed!')
                              Last edited by salmoned; January 25, 2010, 11:35 AM.
                              May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

                                Oops, double post.
                                Last edited by salmoned; January 25, 2010, 10:59 AM. Reason: Admin - Please delete this double post
                                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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