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Thread: Haiti earthquake disaster

  1. #51
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    Arrow Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Actually that is not the case. Read the book The Empty Cradle for an eye opening account of how the world is currently being threatened by underpopulation.



    K, I don't think that conclusion is based on science. A number of lesser animals aid the sick and dying. Elephants come to mind right off the bat.
    Hmmm. On item one, I don't think we are threatened by underpopulation, but by overpopulation by the poor and underprivileged and sensible procreation by the educated. Just my opinion - I'm not playing expert here.

    Thanks for catching my generalization, though. I'm aware of caring for the ill and injured by elephants, but it was a generalization, after all. Most animals, even some very intelligent ones, abandon their sick and dying; those that render aid are the exception.
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  2. #52
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    Question Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Kaonohi, why look for a savior? We can each do our part, then we won't be relying on the Messiah to arrive. Also, you may not believe that introducing more food to a population results in an increase in that population when other factors are not limiting, but it is a widely accepted relationship, regardless of species.
    Evidently there is a misunderstanding: I'm not waiting or looking for any savior. What I intended was let's not leave anyone behind, because we don't know their future potential. You can't 'do your part' if you're dead.

    And of course I know that more food = more population, and less food equals death by starvation in the natural world. We are intelligent animals, however. We can store food for times of lack and not store calories for future use in our body fat.

    I hope you just misunderstood me, otherwise I'd think you were constructing a strawman.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
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  3. #53

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Enough of the ridiculous "Satanic contract" crap. Here is what historical/political experts say are the prime reasons for Haiti's status as one of the world's poorest nations ---


    1) 1838-1915 France's demand for reparations of 150 million francs (about $21,000,000,000 in today's dollars) to compensate slave owners and their heirs, after Haitian independence, saddling the new country with massive debt.

    2) 1915-1934 American occupation, which developed a strong military, leading to the rise of...

    3) 1956-1971 Dictator Papa Doc Duvalier's successful coup and cruel dictatorship, supported by the U.S. (as a balance against Communist Cuba).

    4) 1971-1986 Baby Doc Duvalier's corrupt dictatorship, following his father's death; thanks to support from the Reagan administration, he was able to flee to France (where he may reside today, though there are reports that he is in New York).

    5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post

    5) 1986-present Failed attempts at democratic rule; a brain-drain of doctors, scholars and teachers; near deforestation (from forests covering 60% of the country in the 1920s, to less than 2% by 2006), leading to erosion, desertification and flooding.
    I can personally verify both these points, but would modify to 1492-present

    I good friend of mine who was Peace Corps in Mali (where French was the official language) eventually joined the Foreign Service. His first assignment was Haiti (because he was fluent in French) where he was the Chief Emmigration Officer, among other things. He had some hilarious stories about some of the ploys that the Haitians would use to try to get a visa to the US, where they would eventually disappear. One male doctor dressed up as a Nun. He didn't get his visa when Greg asked him to translate the Latin "Corpus Christi" (Body of Christ) from the Catholic mass and the "nun" couldn't do it. Greg also went on to marry a local Haitian woman, Defti, who was Roman Catholic like his lily white self. Greg and Defti are stationed in Kenya right now.

    I have visited both Haiti and the Dominican Republic where our oldest was a high school foreign exchange student. Haiti is stripped bare of it's forests. The Haitians have used the forest as a source of fuel to cook and keep warm (anything under 70F is cold to them). The DR is lush with tropical forests where cutting wood without a permit is a capital offense. The border between the two countries is a clear cut line of forest, no forest. The Dominican military posts sentries along the border to prevent the Haitians from sneaking across the border at night and cutting wood.

    Haiti has the potential to be a tropical paradise like most of its neighbors. Unfortunately, self interest management by oppressor nations and opportunist nationalists sealed its doom long ago. I don't know what the answers are to its long term development.
    Last edited by matapule; January 24th, 2010 at 03:42 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Kaonohi, you wrote, "My strategy is different than yours. It may be that someone I save through disaster relief - because they know the pain of overpopulation - may be the ONE who helps us balance our population on Earth." That certainly sounds like you are looking to a savior, 'the ONE', to help us.

    Leo, your numerical list seems to imply the people of Haiti weren't active participants in creating that list, that they haven't been the primary contributors toward their current situation. If you believe that, then our best approach would be to leave them alone to solve their own problems since our 'helping' has caused such a mess for their country.

    Matapule, if Haiti's fate is sealed to doom, we and they have no recourse - let it be. There is no answer if its fate is sealed. [Which is nonsense, of course.] Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else). That overpopulation has been caused by the influx of food, mainly or partly provided by 'humanitarian' aid. Lowering food influx WILL lower population, and not just by starvation (though there may be some short term suffering of that sort, the long term benefits outweigh a hundred fold). To avoid that short term suffering, let [us] other countries open [our arms] to Haitian emigrants, rather than send aid to a doomed country.

    There are dozens of good solutions to the 'Haitian problem'. Doing what we've been doing is NOT one of them.

    No pain, no gain. - Tough love
    Last edited by salmoned; January 25th, 2010 at 10:13 AM.
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  6. #56
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    There is no answer if its fate is sealed.
    Haiti's CURRENT fate was sealed long ago and exascerbated with benign neglect by those countries who were in a position to help most. Haiti has the potential for a bright future given the right opportunities and assistance, but death by starvation is not one of them. Education and organized family planning will work wonders for a start.
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  7. #57

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Leo, your numerical list seems to imply the people of Haiti weren't active participants in creating that list, that they haven't been the primary contributors toward their current situation. If you believe that, then our best approach would be to leave them alone to solve their own problems since our 'helping' has caused such a mess for their country.
    You may, of course, infer anything you like from my posting; it does not make it my intent.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else).
    No pain, no gain. - Tough love
    Several of Haiti's island neighbors have higher population densities. Why is overpopulation the cause of all of Haiti's problems while Haiti's more densely populated neighbors thrive?
    Are you a fan of Thomas Malthus, by chance?
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Christopher Hitchens

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    You may, of course, infer anything you like from my posting; it does not make it my intent.
    Nor does the statement above clarify your intent.

    Stinky, I believe you can answer that question yourself with a little due diligence. You may be referring to Puerto Rico(US), Aruba(Neth), Barbados(UK) or Martinique(Fr)? Just a cursory glance at the list answers the question. A viable comparison can better be made with Cuba - about the same population with nearly 4 times the land area. Even better, compare Haiti to its most near neighbor, Dominican Republic with about 1/2 the density. Of course, it's not density alone that is the deciding factor (else many other places would be even more destitute) and I never stated or implied that it was. As for Malthus, he pointed out a trivial mathematical fact, nothing more, nothing less.

    Matapule, fate refers to the future (destiny), not the present. The present is a fait accompli and to suggest it was destined to happen [after the fact] is meaninglessly arcane, if not inane. ('It was fate that I said it was fate that I said it was fate!', or, 'I am doomed to say I am doomed to say I am doomed!')
    Last edited by salmoned; January 25th, 2010 at 12:35 PM.
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  10. #60
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Oops, double post.
    Last edited by salmoned; January 25th, 2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Admin - Please delete this double post
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  11. #61

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post

    Stinky, I believe you can answer that question yourself with a little due diligence. You may be referring to Puerto Rico(US), Aruba(Neth), Barbados(UK) or Martinique(Fr)? Just a cursory glance at the list answers the question. A viable comparison can better be made with Cuba - about the same population with nearly 4 times the land area.
    So you are admitting that there is something else and are retreating from your previous position? - "Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else)."
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Christopher Hitchens

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    I think that Salmoned is merely pointing out the fact that Haiti's more densely populated neighbors are being supported by some of the world's wealthiest countries, who invest some of their wealth to maintain their tropical paradises. Haiti does not have that support, though it was the first independent nation in Latin America.
    Last edited by turtlegirl; January 25th, 2010 at 12:23 PM.
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  13. #63

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by turtlegirl View Post
    I think that Salmoned is merely pointing out the fact that Haiti's more densely populated neighbors are being supported by some of the world's wealthiest countries, who invest some of their wealth to maintain their tropical paradises.
    Yes, I can see what he's pointing out and it constitutes a reversal of his position. He said that "Haiti IS a tropical paradise which has been spoiled by overpopulation (and nothing else)." So according to him, poor governance or lack of money (or any other factor) did not spoil Haiti, only overpopulation. Well, Haiti's neighbors have more "overpopulation" and are not spoiled. Thus there are other factors that spoiled Haiti. Perhaps I've misunderstood him or he misspoke, I'm trying to figure that out.
    What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Christopher Hitchens

  14. #64

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Nor does the statement above clarify your intent.
    Clarifying intent with you is a futile exercise, in which I do not wish to waste my time, nor the patience of others reading this thread. You have made your position clear and have no intention of accepting any other. I can move forward with that knowledge - I care not whether you do the same.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Leo, If moving forward means responding to every chosen post, without intent or content, keep on truckin', bro.

    Stinky, yes, maybe I misspoke. I meant that the population, whether excessive or not, is directly responsible for their situation, including poor governance, lack of money, environmental degradation, etc. (though the unsustainable SIZE of the population contributed mightily to all those issues).

    Those other overpopulated caribbean islands are spoiled as well, by the influence and economic infusion of their protector nations (just as many native Hawaiians believe Hawaii is being spoiled by 'outsider' influence and opulence). Their overlarge populations are supported by external inputs, without which their numbers would necessarily collapse.
    Last edited by salmoned; January 25th, 2010 at 03:19 PM.
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  16. #66
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Six boys? Some people are gluttons for punishment. The only thing worse would be six daughters!

    But you get the point. Those six boys will support you in your old age through SS contributions, but who is going to support them when they retire? My two children, daughters, have elected not to have children. Who is goinng to support them?

    It's a conundrum, but we're way off topic here, and I apologize for it.
    This is why it's a ponzy scheme. One good thing about my boys is that they tell me they will provide for my wife and I when they can. Nice to have doctors and lawyers in the family.
    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

  17. #67

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Another case of good intentions gone awry. Or is the motive pure?

    Ten Americans are detained by the Haitian govt. when they are caught trying to bus 33 Haitian children over the border into the Dominican Republic.

    Guardian angels for those kids. Or child traffickers. Take your pick.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by turtlegirl View Post
    Haiti does not have that support, though it was the first independent nation in Latin America.
    Or maybe... because?

    Independence has its costs - remember the struggles of newly independent United States of America. I am pro-independence - this does not mean, however, that we neglect helping our independent, but different, neighbors in need.

    K
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  19. #69

    Default Re: Haiti earthquake disaster

    Sad article on Haiti's restavek children

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/232865

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